Does the Bible need a defense?

[Redeemed]

i did not say god is spirit i said spirit or soul is creation of god it is simple
yet i know simple things hard to grasp for learned they want complex they talk tons what weigh less then a tear drop in poga's eyebrow
if you like talking so much why don't you meet Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta visit her SWEETSWORDS at www.poetrypoem.com/poga you will meet your match

But God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth, I still don't understand the point your trying to make. We both agree that God created spirits.

 

[poga]

Greetings

Only people I know who regard hindu god krishna as a prophet of Islam are ahmadis. The Muslims have no clue to the origins of hindu mythology.

Ma'asalaama

Edit:
Krishna is a deity worshipped across many traditions of Hinduism. He is usually depicted as a young cowherd boy

Edit 2:

This post is not off topic because it is a refutation to Ahmadi misinformation in an earlier post!

ASSALAMUALAIKUM
AHAMADIS ARE LIARS THEY ARE KAFFIR NEVER COMPARE ME WITH THEM GO TO POETRY SECTION AND READ MY POST SWEETSWORDS [ GREAT TRAITOR]
MANY PROPHET ARE WORSHIPED AS GOD LIKE JESUS AND WAZIR[ AS] PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL

 

[poga]

But God is a Spirit, and those who worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth, I still don't understand the point your trying to make. We both agree that God created spirits.

IF YOU AGREE GOD IS CREATOR OF THE SPIRIT THEN HOW GOD CAN BE SPIRIT AS WELL YOU MUST UNDERSTAND CREATED THINGS IS UNLIKE THE UNCREATED CREATOR THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE ISSUE

 

[NoName55]

ASSALAMUALAIKUM
AHAMADIS ARE LIARS THEY ARE KAFFIR NEVER COMPARE ME WITH THEM GO TO POETRY SECTION AND READ MY POST SWEETSWORDS [ GREAT TRAITOR]
MANY PROPHET ARE WORSHIPED AS GOD LIKE JESUS AND WAZIR[ AS] PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL

Then don't say similar things to them! Only mention The Prophets' named in Qura'an. Rest of the names are known only to Allah ta'ala. you, I or mirza qadiani have no authority to say who was or was not a messenger.

 

[poga]

I don't know if english is your first language but this sounds like the Gestapo talking to a prisoner.

This style by Muslim posters is common on this forum and I wonder why it is allowed.

ENGLISH IS NOT MY FIRST OR SECOND LANGUAGE IT IS THIRD THEREFORE THERE ARE GRAMMATICAL MISTAKES IN MY WRITTINGS PLUS MY ACADEMIC BACK GROUND IS UP TO CLASS FIVE IN PRIMARY SCHOOL IN BANGLADESH IF YOU TAKE THIS INTO CONSIDERATION MAY BE YOU WILL FIND IN YOUR HEART TO OVER LOOK MY ERRORS
YOU SAY YOU CAME FROM MAD COW STAKE HOUSE ACTUALLY THERE WAS NO NEED TO MENTION IT YOUR POST IS PROOF ENOUGH THAT IT IS FROM SOME MAD CATTLE

 

[poga]

question for poga. if your logic is that the spirits are all created by God therefore the holy spirit is a creation seperate from God...then what/who created God?

GOD IS THE CREATOR IF SOME ONE HAD CREATED HIM THEN HE TOO WILL BECOME CREATED THING NOT THE UNCREATED CREATOR

 

[Muslim Knight]

GOD IS THE CREATOR IF SOME ONE HAD CREATED HIM THEN HE TOO WILL BECOME CREATED THING NOT THE UNCREATED CREATOR

Salaams brother, is your keyboard CAPS LOCK damaged or whatnot? LOLs.

Well, I have already testified as to why I trust the existant documents to accurately reflect the original documents.


Why do I think that the original documents accurately report what Jesus said and did?

Note: I said, I think they do. I can't prove they do. It would probably be more correct to say, I think that we can show that they reflect what the writers genuinely believed to be true. (They of course could have gotten it wrong, and misheard or misunderstood and then misreported.) However, among the New Testament authors at least, the general message is consistant so that one would have to assume that all of the writers were similiarly misinformed.

The Bible didn't just appear on the shelf one day. What we have is a living document. The first pieces were letters written by Paul to the churches he helped to found. These were kept by people who knew Paul, his message and his character.

This is one reason why the Bible needed defense so greatly because it isn't the Word of God. God tells us in the Quran about people who write falsehoods and ascribe them to be the Word of God;

Then woe to those who WRITE the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (Al-Quran, Suraah Al-Baqarah 2:79)
​

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is one reason why the Bible needed defense so greatly because it isn't the Word of God. God tells us in the Quran about people who write falsehoods and ascribe them to be the Word of God;

Then woe to those who WRITE the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby. (Al-Quran, Suraah Al-Baqarah 2:79)
​

Very true that the Bible is a book that allows for human hands to have a role in what is written. This is probably one of the places where what Christians and Muslims diverge on understanding the purpose and nature of not just inspiration, but even revelation.

As a Christian I understand God to reveal himself to individuals and they report on their experience of revelation, only rarely to they report an actual message that was revealed to them. If God simply wanted to get his message out, he could write it in the sky for all the world to see and read. He would not need a messenger at all. But God wants also to connect with us, and so he speaks to those who are open to receiving his revelation, encourages them in their walk with him, and from that encouragement they then continue to encourage others by sharing as they have been inspired by that revelation.

Yep, it makes information second hand. And in that sense maybe you can say the Qur'an is better. But in either case, we are trusting the person who shares the revelation they have received to do so correctly. Who would know if Muhammad (pbuh) got any of the recitation wrong? How could anyone correct him if he just made an honest mistake in what he heard and memorized incorrectly. You see the Qur'an has a single original and then many copies have been made from it. But no one can read the original, because the original is that which Muhammad (pbuh) heard, and the first copy was that which he recited. If there was an error in it, there is no way to even realize it, let alone correct it. You simply have to trust that Muhammad (pbuh) made no mistakes, which of course I am sure you do.

Christians have the records of many who had similar experiences to help us see if their is a consistent message about the nature and character of God, the work of Jesus Christ, and other content in our scriptures. As I see it, that human element given to one man would increase the likelihood of error, given to many decreases it.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Very true that the Bible is a book that allows for human hands to have a role in what is written. This is probably one of the places where what Christians and Muslims diverge on understanding the purpose and nature of not just inspiration, but even revelation.

As a Christian I understand God to reveal himself to individuals and they report on their experience of revelation, only rarely to they report an actual message that was revealed to them. If God simply wanted to get his message out, he could write it in the sky for all the world to see and read. He would not need a messenger at all. But God wants also to connect with us, and so he speaks to those who are open to receiving his revelation, encourages them in their walk with him, and from that encouragement they then continue to encourage others by sharing as they have been inspired by that revelation.

Yep, it makes information second hand. And in that sense maybe you can say the Qur'an is better. But in either case, we are trusting the person who shares the revelation they have received to do so correctly. Who would know if Muhammad (pbuh) got any of the recitation wrong? How could anyone correct him if he just made an honest mistake in what he heard and memorized incorrectly. You see the Qur'an has a single original and then many copies have been made from it. But no one can read the original, because the original is that which Muhammad (pbuh) heard, and the first copy was that which he recited. If there was an error in it, there is no way to even realize it, let alone correct it. You simply have to trust that Muhammad (pbuh) made no mistakes, which of course I am sure you do.

Christians have the records of many who had similar experiences to help us see if their is a consistent message about the nature and character of God, the work of Jesus Christ, and other content in our scriptures. As I see it, that human element given to one man would increase the likelihood of error, given to many decreases it.

If there was error in it, cross-referencing with other memorizers could have produced inconsistencies. But this did not happen in the case between the Prophet and his Companions. Also, the Quranic challenge to disbelievers to find discrepancies in it still stands. If the Prophet hadn't got it right, this would have failed even immediately.

Preservation of the Noble Quran

PRESERVATION OF THE NOBLE QURAN

By Sabeel Ahmed
http://thetruereligion.org

There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.

Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech if these same students decided to replicate professor’s complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn’t exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time. None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur’an – revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind. Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran…

Memorization

‘In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown’ relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this ‘oral’ society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

‘The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah’s Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur’an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good’. (2)

‘Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur’an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died’. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.

Companions of the Prophet: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

‘The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur’an and teach it’. (4)

‘Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: ‘Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama’. (5)

‘Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka’. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur’an by the Companions: ‘Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas’ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa’ till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"’ (4:41) ‘Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then’. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

‘At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. ‘Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place…"’ (8 )

‘Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph ‘Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion’. (9)

Second Generation Memorizers

"…Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn ‘Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn ‘Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10 )

Memorizers in Subsequent Generations

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.

Further Points of Consideration

- Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers.

- Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran)

- It’s a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.

Conclusion

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous, from Prophet Muhammad’s (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records…" relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur’an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)

Written Text of the Quran

Prophet’s Lifetime

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

‘Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah’s Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet’s) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him…" (14 )

Narrated by al-Bara’: There was revealed ‘Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah’ (4:95). The Prophet said: ‘Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.’ Then he (Prophet) said: ‘Write: Not equal are those believers…’ (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: ‘We use to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle’. (16)

‘The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him’. (17)

Abdullah Ibn ‘Umar relates:… ‘The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur’an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"’ (18 )

During the Prophet’s last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: ‘I have left with you something which if you will hold fast to it you will never fall into error – a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet…’ (19)

‘Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation’. (20)

‘A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas’ud, Ubay bin Ka’b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar’. (21)

‘The best known among these (Prophet’s Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit’. (22)

‘Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died’. (23)

Conclusion

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet’s lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet’s possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur’an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet’s death. The task of collecting the Qur’an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.

Written Quran in First Generation

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)…so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur’an and collect it (in one manuscript)’…So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)…" (24)

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

‘…Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory…’ (25)

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26)

2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)

‘The manuscript on which the Qur’an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, ‘Umar’s daughter (and wife of the Prophet)’. (28 )

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.

Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman’s Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, ‘O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before’. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, ‘Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you’. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. ‘Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, ‘Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, ‘In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue’. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt…" (29)

Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30 )

2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31)

3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, ‘By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman’s burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

‘Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

‘This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)’. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. ‘It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman’. (38 )

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan ‘Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

‘The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since’. (40)

Conclusion

‘Two of the copies of the Qur’an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical’. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir William Muir, Orientalist of the 19th century states, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (42)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)’ (Quran – Chapter 15, Verse 9).

*(‘We’ is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized.

Thus the above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the ‘Manual for Mankind’. Welcome to Islam…


References
(1) (Michael Zwettler, The Oral Tradition of Classical Arabic Poetry, p.14. Ohio State Press: 1978 )

(2) (Transmitted by Ibn Abbas, collected in Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.519, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan)

(3) (Transmitted by Abu Hurayrah, collected in Sahih Al-Bukhari, 6.520, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan)

(4) (Transmitted by Uthman bin Affan, collected in Sahih Bukhari, 6.546, translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan).

(5) (Jalal al-Din Suyuti, ‘Al-Itqan fi-ulum al-Quran, Vol. I, p.124)

(6) (Ibn Hisham: Sira al-nabi, Cairo, n.d., Vol.I, p. 206).

(7) (Bukhari, 6.106)

( 8 ) (Al-Bukhari, 6.201)

(9) ( Labib as-Said, the Recited Koran, Translated by Bernard Weiss, M.A.Rauf, and Morroe Berger, The Darwon Press, Princton, New Jersey, 1975, pg. 58 ).

(10) (Ibn al Jazari, Kitab al-Nash fi al-Qir’at al-Ashr, (Cairo, al-Halabi, n.d._ vol. 2, p. 254, also Ahmad Makki al-Ansari, al-Difa’ ‘An al-Qur’an. (Cairo, Dar al-Ma’arif, 1973 C.E.), part I, p. 120)

(11) (Labib as-Said, the Recited Koran, Translated by Bernard Weiss, M.A.Rauf, and Morroe Berger, The Darwon Press, Princeton, New Jersey, 1975, pg .59 )

(12) (John Burton, An Introduction to the Hadith, p.27. Edinburgh University Press: 1994)

(13) (Kenneth Cragg, The Mind of the Qur’an, p.26. George Allah & Unwin: 1973)

(14) (Tirmidhi, Mishkat al-Masabih, No. 5823)

(15) (Bukhari, 6.512 )

(16) (Suyuti, Itqan, I, p. 99 )

(17) (M.M.Azami, Kuttab al-Nabi,Beirut, 1974)

(18 ) (Muslim, III, NO. 4606, also 4607, 4608; Bukhari, 4.233)

(19) (Ibn Hisham, Sira al-nabi, p.651).

(20) (Suyuti, Itqan, I, p.62).

(21) (Ibn Abi Dawud: Masahif, p.14 )

(22) (Bayard Dodge: The fihrist of al-Nadim: A Tenth Century Survey of Muslim Culture, New York, 1970, pp.53-63)

(23) (Muwatta Imam Malik, Lahore, 1980, no.307, 308, translation by M. Rahimuddin).

(24) (Bukhari 6.201)

(25) (Labib as-Said, The Recited Koran, translated by Bernard Weiss, et al. 1975, p.21.

(26) (Ibn Hajar, Fath, Vol. IX, p.10 )

(27) (ibid., p.11 )

(28 ) (Bukhari, 6.201)

(29) (Bukhari, 6.510)

(30) (Ibn Hajar, Bath, IX, p. 15 )

(31) (Suyuti, Itqan, Vol.I, p.59 )

(32) (ibid., p.59 ).

(33) (Naysaburi, al-,Nizam al-Din al-Hasan ibn Muhammad, Ghara’ib al-Quran wa-ragha’ib al-furqan. 4 vols. To date. Cairo, 1962).

(34) (Ibn Abi Dawud, p.12 )

(35) (Zarkashi, al-, Badr al-Din, Al-Burhan fi-ulum al-Quran, Cairo, 1957, Vol. I, p. 240.

(36) (Fred L. Israel, Major Peace Treaties of Modern History, New York, Chelsea House Pub., Vol. II, p. 1418 )

(37) (Makhdum, op.cit., 1938, p.19 ).

(38 ) (Ahmad Von Denffer, Ulum Al-Qur’an, Islamic Foundation, revised ed., 1994, p.63)

(39) (The Muslim World, Vol.30(1940), pp. 357-8 )

(40) (Ahmad von Denffer, Ulum Al-Quran, Islamic Foundation, revised Ed., 1994, p.63).

(41) (ibid., p,64)

(42) (Sir Williams Muir, Life of Mohamet, Vol.I. Introduction)

 

[Grace Seeker]

It is worth noting, that the afore conjectured scenario:

Imagine this scenario: A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech if these same students decided to replicate professor’s complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn’t exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

IS NOT how the Gospel accounts came to be written.

From the beginning, the stories of Jesus were told and retold. They were cross-referenced among first the disciples and a larger group of followers beyond the disciples. Peter, John, Stephen, Philip and others were all preaching the same message within weeks after Jesus crucifixion and resurrection. The early church did collect and write down stories about Jesus. There was the didache (which means the teachings) that was produced by the early church, a handbook for new Christian converts, consisting of instructions derived directly from the teachings of Jesus. This work was in regular use less than 20 years after the time of Christ. Reading the Gospels of Luke and Matthew, it appears that they had access to another piece of Christian writing that they both used as background in writing their gospels. It is very true that the manner in which the gospels (and other Christian scripture) came into being is significantly different than that by which the Qur'an is purported to have been written. However, I fail to see that is giving them less credibility. And in some cases I think it gives them more -- remember for Christians the key point of scripture is not to communicate to us the exact words of God, but to communicate to us the work of God. I think that could be credibily remembered even at the end of one's lifetime, without notes, just go and visit an old folks home and talk with them if you have any doubts about their ability to do that. And in this case, not only did some writers have their own personal memories of the events, they had the collective memory of the church and some written stories which they were able to compile and refer to as they then wrote their Gospel proclamations. Remember too, the Gospels are not history nor biography. They were never intended for that purpose. Those who look to them for that will be sorely disappointed. They were then and remain today a proclamation of God's good news, his grace revealed to us and worked out for us in Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection. That is why when you read the gospel accounts over 1/2 of the material convers only the final week of Jesus' life on earth. Only bits and pieces from the rest of his life, his ministry, his sermons, his miracles, etc are even noted at all. Those who look to the Gospels for a message from God or Jesus will not find it there, that is not what the purpose was in writing them, because that is not what Jesus' purpose was when he came here. His purpose in coming was to die. And that is the story that they tell. Any bood that tells you different than this does not know about the real Jesus. Woe to them who would write such a book and claim it is from God:

And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
(Revelation 22:19)

 

[poga]

Then don't say similar things to them! Only mention The Prophets' named in Qura'an. Rest of the names are known only to Allah ta'ala. you, I or mirza qadiani have no authority to say who was or was not a messenger.

there are only twenty five prophets named in al quran
but according to hadith of MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM
there are 124000 prophets ALLAH sent to guide humanity
so who were those other 123975 prophets to know them we need to go to older holy scrpitures
we know over the time they have been corrupted by men but even then there are truth in them what confirems oneness of ALLAH
and one of those book is holy GEETHA if one reads it in the light of AL QURAN he can then very well come to know those part what does not contradict
AL QURAN must have came from divine source therefore from ALLAH to his prophet
so GEETHA is my evidence as it is atributed as saying of krisna
now what is your evidence that he is not prophet

 

[NoName55]

there are only twenty five prophets named in al quran
but according to hadith of MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM
there are 124000 prophets ALLAH sent to guide humanity
so who were those other 123975 prophets to know them we need to go to older holy scrpitures
we know over the time they have been corrupted by men but even then there are truth in them what confirems oneness of ALLAH
and one of those book is holy GEETHA if one reads it in the light of AL QURAN he can then very well come to know those part what does not contradict
AL QURAN must have came from divine source therefore from ALLAH to his prophet
so GEETHA is my evidence as it is atributed as saying of krisna
now what is your evidence that he is not prophet

there are only twenty five prophets named in al quran
but according to hadith of MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM
there are 124000 prophets ALLAH sent to guide humanity

So does it mean that you have the authority to allot pagan deity names to our Prophets?

GEETHA if one reads it in the light of AL QURAN

why on earth do I need to read hindu tripe when I have Quraan to teach me all I need to know? I am not zakir nor do I live in India thus I do not need to appease those killers of Muslims by trying to find similarities between Islam and hinduism!

 

[poga]

So does it mean that you have the authority to allot pagan deity names to our Prophets?why on earth do I need to read hindu tripe when I have Quraan to teach me all I need to know? I am not zakir nor do I live in India thus I do not need to appease those killers of Muslims by trying to find similarities between Islam and hinduism!

brother may i recommend hindu ayurvedic tonic it will cure your senality for good
you say why on earth
exactly it is because we live on earth
may be not india or arabia but mother earth
thats binds us as brothers if we try to learn from each other we gain if you don't want to thats your loss

 

[Grace Seeker]

I can't believe I'm asking for this. But,

Mods, please, close this thread.​

It appears that there is little desire to stay on topic. Arguments about hindu gods and the names of the prophets listed in the Qur'an hardly seem to have anything to do with whether or not the Bible needs a defense. Even reading this thread I can't make the connection.

 

[NoName55]

I can't believe I'm asking for this. But,

Mods, please, close this thread.​

It appears that there is little desire to stay on topic. Arguments about hindu gods and the names of the prophets listed in the Qur'an hardly seem to have anything to do with whether or not the Bible needs a defense. Even reading this thread I can't make the connection.

looking at size of type, one could be forgiven for believing that you think something is wrong with their eyesight.

Regarding hindu gods vs names of prophets: Do you think that when someone sneaks in misinfo in between on-topic posts, I should leave it uncorrected?

first they say krisna is Muslim Prophet
2nd Jesus Is dead
then comes Mirza was Massiah and his chief priest is represention of God on earth.

by the way this cult was started during the Raj to pacify Muslims who wanted to overthrow their Christian rulers

By God, all these demands from trintarians on this forum and some mods obeying their every command is getting on my nerves, sometimes I start to hallucinate that I'm at a pagan forum!

 

[Redeemed]

IF YOU AGREE GOD IS CREATOR OF THE SPIRIT THEN HOW GOD CAN BE SPIRIT AS WELL YOU MUST UNDERSTAND CREATED THINGS IS UNLIKE THE UNCREATED CREATOR THEY ARE TWO SEPARATE ISSUE

If He is not Spirit, then what is He? He is not flesh and blood accept for His Word only. You are not making any sense to me. Of course He can create spirits. He is the Spirit of all spirits and over all spirits along with being over flesh and blood. Everything is held together by the Word of His power. That is Jesus.

 

[poga]

If He is not Spirit, then what is He? He is not flesh and blood accept for His Word only. You are not making any sense to me. Of course He can create spirits. He is the Spirit of all spirits and over all spirits along with being over flesh and blood. Everything is held together by the Word of His power. That is Jesus.

we know our body is physical and our soul spiritual
we also know devils are bad spirits and angels are good spirits
and we know they are created by all mighty ALLAH
now if ALLAH is also the absolute spirit
then those angels and devils can claim we too are part of your spirit therefore we are part of you therefor we are small god and you are big god
but we also know god teaches as in all scriptures that he have no partner
so oh alapiana will you not understand please come to the common term between me and you and what is the first term the first term is there is no but god and we worship him alone
you try this tonight when you go to bed you pray to one god the creator and send your salutation to your prophet jesus[ may peace and blessing of ALLAH be upon him] and hold the desire to see him in your dream and when you see him in your dream ask him about MUHAMMAD [SALLAEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM]

 

[Redeemed]

we know our body is physical and our soul spiritual
we also know devils are bad spirits and angels are good spirits
and we know they are created by all mighty ALLAH
now if ALLAH is also the absolute spirit
then those angels and devils can claim we too are part of your spirit therefore we are part of you therefor we are small god and you are big god
but we also know god teaches as in all scriptures that he have no partner
so oh alapiana will you not understand please come to the common term between me and you and what is the first term the first term is there is no but god and we worship him alone
you try this tonight when you go to bed you pray to one god the creator and send your salutation to your prophet jesus[ may peace and blessing of ALLAH be upon him] and hold the desire to see him in your dream and when you see him in your dream ask him about MUHAMMAD [SALLAEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLIM]

God has already shown me Muhammad, but not because I asked. Why would I want to ask about a person to begin with? He was a prophet but just a man. I am not a respecter of any human flesh unless of course that flesh is the WORD OF GOD INCARNATED.

 

[Umar001]

As for the Hebrew Old Testament, the discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls in the mid 1900s showed how well its text had been maintained. Scholars were able to make comparison between the 800 CE Masoretic text used by Jews today and compare it with the 200 BCE texts found written on the scrolls and the differences were primarily in the form of changes in word spellings.

I have been skimmin some stuff about the Dead sea scrolls, I will ask you, under what evidences were the scrolls dated at 200 BCE?

Also as a General Reminder any new posts from Friday, meaning about 8 hours from now, which are off topic will be deleted.

 

[poga]

I have been skimmin some stuff about the Dead sea scrolls, I will ask you, under what evidences were the scrolls dated at 200 BCE?

Also as a General Reminder any new posts from Friday, meaning about 8 hours from now, which are off topic will be deleted.

AL QURAN speaks of living people of caves
are there any connection with them and dead sea scroll