Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[vpb]

I'll take that as a speech against the Christian understanding of the Trinity.

it doesn't mean that I want to be rude about your opinions, cuz you have your religion, i have mine, but I wanted to show what Allah swt said about the trinity that your belief is based upon, and the partnership you assign to Allah swt.

 

[Grace Seeker]

last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.

Catholics are in the majority in the Christian world.

Catholics do NOT worship Mary.


As to actual Catholic views on Mary, you can read about them hear: Article from New Advent's Catholic Encyclopedia. Now there is in that review of Mary, much that I myself do not agree with. Personally, I think that the songs written in her honor and the idea of praying to God "through" her (or any human being) are a bit much. But I do not find Catholics addressing her as one who is considered "worthy of worthship". They stop just short of that.

Indeed the 2nd Vatican Council affirms that there is only one mediator between God and man, and that this mediator is Jesus Christ. Reading a copy of the Catholic Catechism I see Mary described there is the model Christian, the perfect example from all of humanity as to what it is to live in the will of God. But they never equate her with God. She does get the title "Mother of God", but not because she is herself divine. Rather it is because her son, Jesus, is.

If you find a Catholic who takes Mary as a god, this is a Catholic who is practicing something contrary to what the Catholic Church actually teaches.

 

[Redeemed]

JazakAllah khaira wa Salaam Alaikum

Who is being gossiped about here? And what answers were you looking for?

 

[Phil12123]

I don't remember the source but many years ago I read about Muhammed's shock and revulsion over seeing how Catholics "worshipped" or venerated Mary, so much so that in his view they were making her part of the Trinity. It was his misunderstanding of their view of Mary (though not entirely unjustified) and of the Trinity that lead him to reject much of the Bible as being in conflict with monotheism. And since the Bible pre-dated anything he came up with, the only way to dispute it was to say it was corrupted, though there is not any credible evidence to support such a claim. Absent such alleged corruption, the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, calling the Father "God," and the Son "God," and the Holy Spirit "God," and yet teaching there is only ONE God. He didn't understand that, nor perhaps can we, but it's there nevertheless.

Peace

 

[vpb]

I don't remember the source but many years ago I read about Muhammed's shock and revulsion over seeing how Catholics "worshipped" or venerated Mary, so much so that in his view they were making her part of the Trinity. It was his misunderstanding of their view of Mary (though not entirely unjustified) and of the Trinity that lead him to reject much of the Bible as being in conflict with monotheism. And since the Bible pre-dated anything he came up with, the only way to dispute it was to say it was corrupted, though there is not any credible evidence to support such a claim. Absent such alleged corruption, the Bible clearly teaches the Trinity, calling the Father "God," and the Son "God," and the Holy Spirit "God," and yet teaching there is only ONE God. He didn't understand that, nor perhaps can we, but it's there nevertheless.

really? lol well that's your opinion but it doesn't represent the truth.

do you thnk Allah swt misunderstood your belief?? astagfirullah. Muhammed saws did not decide about things from his desires, but rather that what Allah swt commanded him directly or indirectly.

please read the following verses.

Surah Al Maeda (The Table, The Table Spread) 5:17:

In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is Christ the son of Mary. Say: "Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things."



[By the star when it goes down, Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of his own desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired. He has been taught this Qur'an by the one mighty in power (Jibreel). (Free from any defect in body and mind), then he (Jibreel) rose and became stable. While he was in the highest part of the horizon, then he approached and came closer and was at a distance of two bows length or even nearer (Jibreel). So did Allah convey the inspiration to His slave (Muhammad) through (Jibreel). The Prophet's heart lied not in seeing what he saw. Will you then dispute with him about what he saw? And indeed he (Muhammad) saw him (Jibreel) at a second descent. Near the lote tree of the utmost boundary (beyond which none can pass). Near it is the Paradise of Abode. When that covered the lote tree which did cover it! The sight of Muhammad turned not aside nor it transgressed beyond the limit ordained for it. Indeed, Muhammad did see, of the Greatest Signs, of his Lord.] (An-Najm 53:1-18)

 

[Redeemed]

well, if you worship God and son of God, it's not to be suprised that they worship the mother of the son of God, (wife of God). Why do you think your belief is smarter than theirs?

Astagfirullah.

Actually, it is no surprise to me, and you are right. It does make sense to do that if one didn't have the Bible to go by. Mary is not the mother of God. She was created by God just as we were. She did not remain a virgin after the birth of Christ. She was just blessed among women to have given birth to the Word of God in the flesh. In other words, Jesus is God. He is the prince of peace, the Everlasting Father, the mighty God, King of kings, Lord of Lords, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the bright mornings star, the Savior of the world, the light of the world, the rose of Sharon, the lily of the valley the great I am, the Son of God, the son of man, Alfa and Omega, the Beginning and the End, The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (including Mary's sin), wonderful counselor, Immanuel (God with us), the Way the Truth and the Life, The Creator and much, much more. God said of Jesus, "But thou Oh God is an everlasting kingdom..." Every knee will bow and tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father even those going to hell. One that worships Jesus is worshiping God. One that does not honor Jesus the same as God (Allah) worships and honors not God. We have to meet God on His terms not ours or by the terms of others who say they have heard from God. We need to hear from God for ourselves. We have to have our own connection. Prayer is not facing in some direction and speaking our peace. It is letting God speak His to us from any direction He wants, and He is speaking to you now, but you will not hear!

 

[vpb]

Mary is not the mother of God. She was created by God just as we were

lol, but how come Mary is only a creature of God, but Jesus is not?? If God put Jesus in Mary's womb, then Jesus is not his son, but his creature, if God had relationship with Mary, then we come to the conlsuion that God holds human values. And if God didn't have relationship with Mary, then he had to put the child in Mary's womb, which is not his son in any sense. Astagfirullah cuz I feel terribly even to take this sort of examples. Have you ever contemplated enough, do you really think God can have a son??? God does not hold human values. He majesty is high from having a son. this term 'son of God' was just a metaphoric word that was used by Jews, and you adapted it as real Son of God.

...The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (including Mary's sin), wonderful counselor, Immanuel (God with us), the W...

Immanuel does not refer to Jesus, actually Dr. Zakir Naik has explained this thing that people believe when it says in the bible that A virgin will give birth to a son that will be called Immanuel, but the jewish word that is used for Mary, does not mean "a virgin" but a "young lady", and he explained the other word that means "a virgin", so this prophecy is unfulfilled in Bible and does not refer to Jesus. I don't know who, but it does not.

 

[vpb]

at minute 5:45 of the video, talks about the "Imannuel" and explains it in the jewish words used in bible.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1XgzzHglQg[/media]

 

[NoName55]

Originally Posted by NoName55
JazakAllah khaira wa Salaam Alaikum

Who is being gossiped about here? And what answers were you looking for?

Don't concern yourself for Br. Gene has dealt with the matter on your behalf via PM and post. As far as I am concerned, it is resolved.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Jesus (p) : 'My Father is greater than I'--chapter John



any verse in Bible where father declared :.....My son is greater than all ??????

if yes , where is it & what's the context ?

 

[Phil12123]

lol, but how come Mary is only a creature of God, but Jesus is not??

Because Jesus is God, equal with the Father in essence, substance, and nature, and existing as long as God has existed. Mary is just a human, with no preexistence, and no existence until she was created. Jesus' human existence began when "the Word was made flesh," i.e., when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived in her womb without knowing a man.

If God put Jesus in Mary's womb, then Jesus is not his son, but his creature,

Wrong, for the same reason.

.. if God had relationship with Mary, then we come to the conclusion that God holds human values. And if God didn't have relationship with Mary, then he had to put the child in Mary's womb, which is not his son in any sense.

Jesus is "the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth" (John 1:14). For you to talk as you do about Jesus is just as offensive to me as a Christian as it would be for me to say that Muhammad had a demon when he was supposedly receiving what went into the Quran. Do you understand that? You speak of things you know not.

Immanuel does not refer to Jesus, actually Dr. Zakir Naik has explained this thing that people believe when it says in the bible that A virgin will give birth to a son that will be called Immanuel, but the jewish word that is used for Mary, does not mean "a virgin" but a "young lady", and he explained the other word that means "a virgin", so this prophecy is unfulfilled in Bible and does not refer to Jesus. I don't know who, but it does not.

Matthew 1:18. Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.
19. Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not wanting to make her a public example, was minded to put her away secretly.
20. But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21. "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.''
22. Now all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,'' which is translated, "God with us.''

The "prophet" referred to is Isaiah ---

Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.

I chose to believe the Scriptures. You may believe Dr. Infidel and be one with him. That is your choice. We all make choices. And some of them have eternal consequences. Without Jesus, we are all lost and condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire to pay for our own sins. I choose to accept His death on the cross (which you choose to deny even happened), as FULL payment for all my sins. In choosing that, I choose to trust in His Word which says:

1 Peter 2:24. [Christ] Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness ...

1 Peter 3:18. For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Romans 5:6 For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die.
8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10. For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Romans 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32. He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The contrast cannot be clearer:

Without Christ:
Our sin earns us
wages...DEATH,
physical, spiritual,
and ultimately
eternal.

With Christ:
He pays for them
and gives us the
gift of ETERNAL LIFE.

A gift cannot be worked for or earned, but simply received. But it MUST be received, or you will never possess it.

The choice is yours. Choose LIFE and live forever, by receiving His GIFT today!

Peace

 

[vpb]

Because Jesus is God, equal with the Father in essence, substance, and nature, and existing as long as God has existed. Mary is just a human, with no preexistence, and no existence until she was created. Jesus' human existence began when "the Word was made flesh," i.e., when the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she conceived in her womb without knowing a man.

still you fail to explain, and you only say "because Jesus is son of God" but nevermind i'm not discuss this thing any further cuz it has been discussed many times and there's not point to di further.

For you to talk as you do about Jesus is just as offensive to me as a Christian as it would be for me to say that Muhammad had a demon when he was supposedly receiving what went into the Quran. Do you understand that? You speak of things you know not.

you are comparing two different things and it doesn't work, and as for talking like that about Jesus, actually I get offended more than you do, much more, bc you are giving Allah swt human values, making Allah swt imperfect and flawless by claiming that he has a Son, Subhanallah only humans have sons, God is not in need of anything , and also you are twisting my prophet Isa's (Jesus's) a.s teachings, and that's why I care, bc he came with the same message as other prophets "Laaaa ilahe ilallah - There is no diety of worship except Allah", and veriy Jesus himself, the "son of God" that you call will testify against you on the day of judgement as it says in the Qur'an:

Surah Al-Nisa 4:157-159

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he (Jesus a.s) will be a witness against them;-

and wallahi we will also testify inshaAllah.

 

[vpb]

To Christians, Jesus is God. God loves us so much that He came down to Earth and lived as a man, just so that He could die for our sins. Jesus is the Son of God, and was a man, but he is also God the Father.

a man is mortal, God is immortal, how on earth can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? how can you be a son of God and a God at the same time? can you be a prince (son of King) and the King at the same time? impossibly impossible . the King has to die for you as a prince to become a King. Who brought this concept?? what was he thinking of? ;D seriously loll

 

[Grace Seeker]

a man is mortal, God is immortal, how on earth can you be immortal and mortal at the same time? how can you be a son of God and a God at the same time? can you be a prince (son of King) and the King at the same time? impossibly impossible . the King has to die for you as a prince to become a King. Who brought this concept?? what was he thinking of? ;D seriously loll

That you do not understand how, does not make it impossible to be true, just impossible for you to conceive of it as true. There is a difference.

 

[vpb]

That you do not understand how, does not make it impossible to be true, just impossible for you to conceive of it as true. There is a difference.

what am I not understanding here??? should I force my brain believe that you can be a prince and a king at the same time??? how can a prince which his father is on the throne, be a king at the same time? 2 kings? or one prince and 1 king? or no king at all? please what am I missing here, why can't i understand? why can't I understand that it is possible to be mortal and immortal at the same time? hmmm or should I just force this idea on my brain and just say "I believe" .

 

[August]

what am I not understanding here??? should I force my brain believe that you can be a prince and a king at the same time??? how can a prince which his father is on the throne, be a king at the same time? 2 kings? or one prince and 1 king? or no king at all? please what am I missing here, why can't i understand? why can't I understand that it is possible to be mortal and immortal at the same time? hmmm or should I just force this idea on my brain and just say "I believe" .

It's one of those things that must be accepted on faith. We can use logic and reason to see why the Trinity makes sense, but it isn't something that can be proven. I'm guessing you were raised Muslim? I was raised Christian, so I never have really had a problem seeing the Trinity as monotheism. The precise explanation of the Trinity differs among some Christian groups, however.

 

[vpb]

It's one of those things that must be accepted on faith. We can use logic and reason to see why the Trinity makes sense, but it isn't something that can be proven. I'm guessing you were raised Muslim? I was raised Christian, so I never have really had a problem seeing the Trinity as monotheism. The precise explanation of the Trinity differs among some Christian groups, however.

nooo, it don't want to accept it blindly, and trinity cannot be proven even through login a reason, i'm sorry but it doesn't , just at those two simple examples it fails, and no one in the world can come up and say that you can be king and a prince at the same time, or immortal and mortal at the same time. MISSION IMPOSSIBLE 3 .
and as far as for being raised as a muslim, heh..I was raised in a "muslim" family, which not that taught me about Islam, but they even themselves had hugeeee misunderstandings of Islam, you can imagine if i'm called "extremist" for applying second pillar of Islam, than you can imagine what family I was raised on.
but religion doesn't go with what your parents or family had,

Surah Ibrahim (Abraham) 14:10

Their messengers said: Is there doubt about Allah, the Maker of the heavens and the earth? He invites you to forgive you your faults and to respite you till an appointed term. They said: You are nothing but mortals like us; you wish to turn us away from what our fathers used to worship; bring us therefore some clear authority.

 

[Grace Seeker]

what am I not understanding here??? should I force my brain believe that you can be a prince and a king at the same time??? how can a prince which his father is on the throne, be a king at the same time? 2 kings? or one prince and 1 king? or no king at all? please what am I missing here, why can't i understand? why can't I understand that it is possible to be mortal and immortal at the same time? hmmm or should I just force this idea on my brain and just say "I believe" .

Let me just address the last one. Are you yourself a mortal or an immortal being? I can make a case for both, and both at the same time.

One of these days you are going to die. Obviously you are therefore a mortal being.

But when you die you life will not end, instead it will be transformed into a new life created to live forever either with God in paradise or apart from God in eternal torment. So, you are therefore an immortal being. Both at the same time.

Well, if that can be true for a human being, why is it so hard to imagine a divine being putting on flesh. As Jesus himself said, nothing is imposible for God.

But ultimately you are also right, it isn't about logic. There is no logic to it from a human perspective. From a human persepctive it is more mystery than logic. But then many other things are also more mystery than logic and yet we know they are true -- gravity for example. So, yes, I guess that we are asking you to just believe. If one believes in the words recorded in the Bible then one is faced with scripture calling one know as the Father God, and yet on another occassion refering to one known as the Son as God, and on other occassion refering to the Holy Spirit as God. Calls three different persons God and yet claims there is just one God. I'm not going to solve it for you and tell you how it works, I'm not even going to put a name to it this time, I'm just going to tell you that the Bible says that is the way it is. You can do with that information whatever you please.

 

[Zulkiflim]

Let me just address the last one. Are you yourself a mortal or an immortal being? I can make a case for both, and both at the same time.

One of these days you are going to die. Obviously you are therefore a mortal being.

But when you die you life will not end, instead it will be transformed into a new life created to live forever either with God in paradise or apart from God in eternal torment. So, you are therefore an immortal being. Both at the same time.

Well, if that can be true for a human being, why is it so hard to imagine a divine being putting on flesh. As Jesus himself said, nothing is imposible for God.

But ultimately you are also right, it isn't about logic. There is no logic to it from a human perspective. From a human persepctive it is more mystery than logic. But then many other things are also more mystery than logic and yet we know they are true -- gravity for example. So, yes, I guess that we are asking you to just believe. If one believes in the words recorded in the Bible then one is faced with scripture calling one know as the Father God, and yet on another occassion refering to one known as the Son as God, and on other occassion refering to the Holy Spirit as God. Calls three different persons God and yet claims there is just one God. I'm not going to solve it for you and tell you how it works, I'm not even going to put a name to it this time, I'm just going to tell you that the Bible says that is the way it is. You can do with that information whatever you please.

Salaam,

The flesh will wither and cruble but the soul remian.

But the soul is not divine.
Angels will last till the end days,,but they are not divine..
Satan will last till the end days,,,but they are not divine

Divinity is ONLY ONE...

 

[vpb]

Let me just address the last one. Are you yourself a mortal or an immortal being? I can make a case for both, and both at the same time.

One of these days you are going to die. Obviously you are therefore a mortal being.

But when you die you life will not end, instead it will be transformed into a new life created to live forever either with God in paradise or apart from God in eternal torment. So, you are therefore an immortal being. Both at the same time.

Well, if that can be true for a human being, why is it so hard to imagine a divine being putting on flesh. As Jesus himself said, nothing is imposible for God.

Failure, we are not talking about the afterlife, but we are talking about this life, and when I say mortal and immortal at the same time, I don't mean mortal in this life, and immortal on the other, but I mean both at this life,don't try to be sneaky with my thoughts ,. As you claim Jesus is god, he lived on earth, but we know that God is immortal no matter what, but on earth he was mortal, so mortal and immortal is impossible, jesus had either to be mortal, and was a human, a prophet, or be immortal which denies that he came on earth or lived on earth. don't try to mix it with other world, we are talking about this world. Jesus couldn't be God (immortal) and live on earth as mortal, and be immortal and mortal same time. now Mission Impossible 4

Calls three different persons God and yet claims there is just one God.

I haven't come across a single religious book which says : "the monotheistic religions, Judaism, Islam and christianity" , it has always been "the two monotheistic religion , Judaism and Islam" .

to make it more clear about the trinity thing, I took an examp;le before but i will do it with an image for entartainment

Christianity:

Islam:

I hope i'm clear enough.