Lina Joy

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Thats it! You expressed my own thoughts very well.

Its true that in christian countries ( or with christian majority) it never happens that a convert to islam( former christian) is threaten a jail or has to fight for his rights in courts.

Just imagine, if Lina Joy was a christian living in Holland for example, and after she converts to islam, she would have the same troubles as has the woman in Malaysia now, dozens of islamic organizations would condemn this act and cry about islamophobic and racist Europe. :) Sounds like double standards.

Well in reality if a person lived in such a country and became Muslim they could just leave, its called hijra. Something this lady maybe shoulda done.

And if someone told me, renounce islam or die, I think I'd prefer to die, and I am sure the lady would do the same.

At least both Muslms and Christians acknowledge that God in the past has sent laws to punish those that left His religion. :)

But I would say one thing, double standards? Hmm maybe, but from what I understand muslims tend to use what is available, for example, Europe might go by a set of laws, so the muslim who lives here tries to abide by them, thus he would appeal and so forth, and when that muslim lives in the muslim abiding areas he abides by them and that's it.

It's a simple matter of adjusting to surroundings.

In my opinion, anyone that would harm another for making a personnel choice, conceders themselves superior. In a society of equals, they are the apostates because they deny equality.

I think that might in alot of cases work both ways, meaning the apostates in an equal society would themselves be indirectly saying that they are making a better descion and so forth, specially when entering faiths like Judaism, Christianity or Islam.
 
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But I would say one thing, double standards? Hmm maybe, but from what I understand muslims tend to use what is available, for example, Europe might go by a set of laws, so the muslim who lives here tries to abide by them, thus he would appeal and so forth, and when that muslim lives in the muslim abiding areas he abides by them and that's it.

It's a simple matter of adjusting to surroundings.

If its true what you say, then how democracy can work in muslim countries, while freedom of religion is the major case of democracy?

You know for me it is quite disturbing, because we still talk about moderate and democratic Malaysia, not about Iran , or Afghanistan.

And about muslims abiding european laws in Europe...Dont actually muslims in EUROPE fight to impose their religious laws in our continent?
For example- all those Halal dishes in schools, seperated swimming pools for boys and girls in Great Britain, muslim places to worship in jails and police stations, hospitals for muslims only..

I think that if Malaysia wants to call itself a democratic country, it should leave that woman alone. And please dont tell me that she can leave this country, because we dont expell converts to islam from Europe (we rather show them in tv and magazines).
 
If its true what you say, then how democracy can work in muslim countries, while freedom of religion is the major case of democracy?

Many things work in many places, whether some Muslims want an islamic state or not that's what it boils down to.


And about muslims abiding european laws in Europe...Dont actually muslims in EUROPE fight to impose their religious laws in our continent?

Maybe because the Laws of your Continent allow them to?


For example- all those Halal dishes in schools, seperated swimming pools for boys and girls in Great Britain, muslim places to worship in jails and police stations, hospitals for muslims only..

If someone gives you the option of making things easier for yourself would you take it? I would, if someone gave me the option between serving my kids halal food or having to go out of my way because they dont serve halal food, I'd prefer the former.

I think that if Malaysia wants to call itself a democratic country, it should leave that woman alone. And please dont tell me that she can leave this country, because we dont expell converts to islam from Europe (we rather show them in tv and magazines).

Well that's upto malaysia and its people.

As for leaving, well i was just stating that some would derive that teaching from the words in the Bible, she might be one of those Christians who does, would be good if she did.

As for the comparison, well that's your law, you can keep it if you wish. But I don't see much point in comparing the two. ;)
 
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As for the comparison, well that's your law, you can keep it if you wish. But I don't see much point in comparing the two. ;)

Ok but then someone could ask how islamic law can co exist with western democracy. And how should look like the integration of muslim immigrants in West. And finally, isn't actually islamic law and western democracy too different from each other.

Ok im going to sleep now anyway, because i have to wake up early to my university :laugh:

Bye.
 
Ok but then someone could ask how islamic law can co exist with western democracy. And how should look like the integration of muslim immigrants in West. And finally, isn't actually islamic law and western democracy too different from each other.

Ok im going to sleep now anyway, because i have to wake up early to my university :laugh:

Bye.
Co exist? I assume you mean co-exits in equality. For that to happen, people must conceder themselves equal. As long an one demands superiority, true co-existence is not possible.
 
Ok but then someone could ask how islamic law can co exist with western democracy. And how should look like the integration of muslim immigrants in West. And finally, isn't actually islamic law and western democracy too different from each other.

Well then one asks do they need to co exist, one could also ask do they need to intergrate.

You see, God's will on earth as it is in heaven, is, in my view, brought to life through the establishment of His laws, including the Shariah, so thus, just as you would not want heaven/paradise to be half God's law Half Man's similarly, I want God's law here as it is and will be in heaving, i.e. his command superior.

As for the intergration, I am here, doing ok, as long as I can practice my religion I do my bit, I pay taxes, I work, I study, I dont steal nor break laws.

Ok im going to sleep now anyway, because i have to wake up early to my university :laugh:

Bye.

Take care dude, but you not on a break? Half term whooohooo.
 
Can A Child Really ‘Convert’ to Islam?

Dr. Syed Ali Tawfik Al-Attas/ Md. Asham bin Ahmad
Ketua Pengarah/ Fellow

01/05/2007 | The Star


....The emphasis on will and consciousness, when talking about Islam, assumes knowledge to be of paramount prerequisite. Knowledge is the property of reason ('aql). Without reason there can be no true knowledge, and without true knowledge it is not possible to convert to Islam willingly and consciously. We are reminded of the saying of the Prophet: "no religion (din) to one who has no reason ('aql)".

Furthermore, we may argue that all religious obligations like prayer and fasting necessitates reason as the required condition of the obligation. Now if we take ‘to be a Muslim' as an obligation, then reason should also be an essential condition. As such, because a child's faculties of reason are still immature, it cannot be burdened with the responsibility.

Hence, what is the point of using the courts 'to convert' a child, and separate it from his or her non-Muslim mother? It should be clear by now that one does not become a Muslim by changing one's name to Muhammad or Abdullah, nor by changing the status of religion in the registration office, what more if it is done by someone else. Perhaps the converted parent is worried that his or her child may be raised in an 'unislamic' environment resulting in him or her being a non-Muslim adult. That fear is actually baseless, and it contradicts the parent's own experience.

A child is a child, and naturally has a strong emotional bond with its mother. As the child matures, it may make a conscious, willing decision concerning religion to adopt. To separate a child from its mother is indeed a cruel act, and is unjust from the point of view of Islam, let alone to claim that one is doing so in the name of Islam.

To leave the child in the care of its non-Muslim parent does not make the child an infidel. If Islam is defined as a willing and conscious act of submission, its antithesis, unbelief (kufr) points to a denial of consciousness, a refusal to submit, or to submit grudgingly. The cause of unbelief, as exemplified by the devil according to the Qur'an, is arrogance. One's refusal to open one's eyes, ears, and heart to the message of Islam without knowing what is being rejected is unbelief. The refusal to accept Islam after knowing its truth is an even greater form of unbelief because it assumes arrogance, and a refusal to submit to truth consciously. Are wenow saying that children who have yet to mature are arrogant and devilish?

Islam is not to be made the desperate handmaiden of any political party in dire need of support and membership at all costs. Islam is God's gift of mercy to mankind. Accepting and recognizing this gift does not make God greater for He is not in need of anything. Similarly by refusing it does not make Him a lesser God. Islam is not a religion for fools. Using the mechanism of the judiciary to 'Islamize' people, or to prevent them from leaving Islam is totally absurd. All it achieves is to unjustly potray all Muslims as ignorant fools, and as a result of association, Islam becomes the victim. Imagine what the non-Muslim community in general will understand of Islam. They will conclude that Islam is a cruel religion which seeks to separate a parent from his or her children. As a result, Islam will be put on trial. And this is already happening.

source
 
From the llink:

But there is a doctrine of inequality based on gender and religion.
I think when most people think of human rights they include legal equality.

The question is...whether they have the correct definitions of equality. :?


quoted from the same article

In this spirit, the Islamic conception and practice of freedom differs from that of the modern secular idea of freedom. Hence, the so-called freedom to be homosexual, for example, can never be conceived as a real freedom by virtue of the fact that it is not a choice for the better. This can be extended to many other cases mentioned above where man tends to opt for the bad in disregard of many other good things available to him. Obviously, in the exercise of freedom, one needs to have knowledge of good and evil. The determination of good and evil cannot be understood by human reason alone because reason can be susceptible to error. Thus, absolute, supernatural or spiritual guidance is necessary. Here, religious and moral education constitutes significant prerequisites in understanding human rights. It is at this juncture that Islam offers divine intervention.

Rights and freedom can neither be separate nor detached from religion and morality. They are not territories without borders. They require certain regulations. They must be understood in light of proper knowledge acquired after experiencing a proper system of education, without any dualistic approach and without making a dichotomy between reason and morality at the expense of religion.
 
Equality 1. state of being equal: rights, treatment, quantity, or value equal to all others in a specific group
full equality under the law

So you achieve your equality by creating separate groups based on religion and gender. Not the way the non-Muslim world looks at it.
 
by creating separate groups based on religion and gender. Not the way the non-Muslim world looks at it.

Are you sure that the non-muslim doesn't create any kind of seperate groups? :?
 
Are you sure that the non-muslim doesn't create any kind of seperate groups? :?
Well a perfect world or even a perfect government would be nice. But until Utopia is created,we just need to take what we got and make it better.

As long as there is human administration there will always be need for improvement.

At least in the US you cannot have laws that state that laws do or do not apply to you depending upon your gender or religion. But still we do have some legalized discrimination. Legal rights are given to a man and a woman that enter a legal contract, but two men or two women cannot obtain those legal rights. But at least we don’t kill them.
 
I just find this debate disturbing in the context of freedom of religion. I suppose as an American the thought of someone no being allowed to choose their faith is an alien concept. I suppose if one lives in an Islamic state, or a country that borders on Islamic law, the situation becomes a little more complicated, as this right isn't promised them. However, I do think suggesting this person should leave her country is hypocritical, as I have seen the outrage(and rightly so) that Muslims feel when some suggest they should leave the West.
 
I just find this debate disturbing in the context of freedom of religion. I suppose as an American the thought of someone no being allowed to choose their faith is an alien concept. I suppose if one lives in an Islamic state, or a country that borders on Islamic law, the situation becomes a little more complicated, as this right isn't promised them. However, I do think suggesting this person should leave her country is hypocritical, as I have seen the outrage(and rightly so) that Muslims feel when some suggest they should leave the West.

Actually it is more a rumour regarding 'ask to leave the country".

The case are still open.
 
Whither Jurisdictional Conflict

Dr. Wan Azhar bin Wan Ahmad
Fellow Kanan

15/05/2007 | The Star

Last Tuesday (08.05.07), I attended a roundtable discussion regarding the ongoing jurisdictional conflict between the Malaysian civil and Syariah courts at the International Islamic University Malaysia (IIUM). Many issues and concerns were raised, and suggestions to address the situation were made accordingly. Some recommendations seemed plausible but when it came to practical amicable resolutions, none were clear or certain. Many factors must be considered as these factors are interrelated and are not without certain implications.
The saga seems to continue, as can be discerned from a series of unfolding events, resulting in a ‘tug of war' between the two applied Malaysian legal systems. It has created unwarranted tension, suspicion and dissatisfaction among the multi-racial population of our country.

This ugly face of confrontation culminated in a string of cases which have affected the nation. These cases include Shamala, Lina Joy, Nyonya Tahir, M. Moorthy, Rayappan Anthony, Subashini, and perhaps the latest, P. Marimuthu. It appears that certain quarters are manipulating these cases in hopes of portraying Islamic law and its entire system as cruel, unreasonable, out-of-date and on a collision course with civil laws and/or the doctrine of human rights.

Despite the ‘sensitivity' involved in all these cases, we still need to tackle the various related issues raised with great wisdom. Discussion of this sort requires a high degree of open mindedness between all affected parties. Concerns of numerous parties in cases of this nature are real, and NOBODY should underestimate its social, economic, political and religious consequences.

None, particularly the authorities, should be dismissive, simply sweeping things under the rug pretending as if a conflict and its ensuing repercussions do not exist or that nothing is wrong with our legal system. We do not want this whole issue to develop into a kind of ticking time bomb armed to blow apart our national solidarity so carefully nurtured by our forefathers and tirelessly emulated by the Government for decades.

People normally think and behave within the framework of certain legal precedents, be they divine or mundane. In the Malaysian context, this attitude has been shaped primarily by our Federal Constitution, the supreme law of the land. With regard to the problematic relationship between Syariah vis-à-vis civil laws, one may argue that perhaps the root cause is attributable to our esteemed Constitution.

The Ninth Schedule of the Constitution prescribes the legislative division of the federal and state governments. While the Federal List (List I) enumerates areas that come under the legislative powers of the Central Government, the State List (List II) put Malay customs, Islamic law and its administration under the responsibility of the State assemblies. It clearly states that the State legislatures are to preserve Islamic law as well as the constitution, organization and procedure of the Syariah courts which, in both situations, shall have jurisdiction only over persons professing the religion of Islam.

The State legislatures have accordingly consolidated these provisions in the various State Enactments/Acts. For example, section 46(2)(b) of the Administration of Islamic Law (Federal Territories) Act 1993, states that "A Syariah High court shall in its civil jurisdiction, hear and determine all actions and proceedings in which all the parties are Muslims...".

The same constitutional restrictive spirit is embedded in certain other civil statutory laws, such as in the Law Reform (Marriage and Divorce) Act, 1976. Section 3 clearly mentions that the Act shall not apply to a Muslim while section 51(1) states that if one party to a marriage has converted to Islam, the other party who has not so converted may petition for divorce. Meaning, the converting party is not given any opportunity to apply for dissolution of marriage under civil law.

Why all these limitations? It is these limitations that have partially-if not significantly-contributed to the worsening jurisdictional conflict and has triggered misunderstanding and friction in the pluralistic Malaysian society.

I believe that the learned framers of the Constitution, as well as the draftsmen at both national and state levels, were mistaken in putting such a limitation. It is unfortunate if the inclusion sprung out from their limited knowledge of Islam, thinking that Islamic courts are exclusively for Muslims. One may submit that these framers and draftsmen were unwitting factors responsible for opening ‘Pandora's box' which has subsequently created the confusion blanketing the nation today!

This fact is possibly what many are not aware of. From the early days of Islam, history shows that non-Muslims sought remedies to settle their disputes with Muslims in Islamic courts. One striking classic example is the dispute between the fourth rightly guided Caliph, Ali, then the head executive of the Islamic state, and a Jew. Both went to the court over ownership of a saddle. Based on the evidence presented before the court, the judgment meted out by the presiding Muslim judge was in favour of the Jew. One may conclude that even though the case involved the sovereign and a layman, both from two different religious backgrounds, there was no element of bias or suppression of justice.

Looking at another constitutional provision, Article 121(1A) somehow reinforces the State List in the Ninth Schedule. It further strengthens the position of the Syariah courts in stating that the civil courts shall have no jurisdiction on matters that fall under the jurisdiction of the former.

In determining this constitutional jurisdiction, the civil courts take two different approaches: ‘express jurisdiction' and ‘implied jurisdiction'. The first suggests that in order for the Syariah court to have jurisdiction, State assemblies need to expressly confer such jurisdiction by officially having legal provisions in appropriate enactments. This, for example, can be seen in the decided cases of Ng Wan Chan and Lim Chan Seng.

On the contrary, the second approach suggests that the Syariah courts may have jurisdiction directly but this is implied from the State List without any express conferment from the State legislatures. The absence of explicit jurisdiction is not to hinder the Syariah courts from assuming jurisdiction on matters listed in the State List though the relevant specific provisions are yet to be enacted. This has been decided in cases like Md Hakim Lee, Tan Sung Mooi and Soon Singh in particular.

The above two approaches basically points to the discernment of judges in interpreting legal provisions. It requires tremendous wisdom and well considered judicious opinion from all courts judges. With regard to the syarie judges, it is here that the element of dynamic ijtihad is applicable. The lack of this quality is perhaps another factor that may be associated with the jurisdictional conflict between the two judicial systems. This reiterates the call by some parties for our judges to be more courageous in their judgments, without fear or favour, even if they need to depart from the established norms.

Many would share my belief that in meting out judgments, apart from all those available legal provisions, we need to use logic and rational thinking to decide disputes. Often times, justice is realized not by looking into the words and letters of the law, but rather by looking into the spirit, purpose or objective of the law itself. Among the keywords requiring invocation at all the times here is ‘in the interest of justice'.

The general masses must not be spared from taking some responsibilities. I have reason to believe that the current jurisdictional conflict, reflecting prejudices about the Islamic judicial system, are caused primarily by misrepresentations. More tend to hold that indeed Islam is the most misunderstood world religion. A lot of misrepresentations are spreading through various channels and forms, deceiving many to believe that Islam is synonymous with terrorism, barbarism, injustice, etc-you name it-generating ‘Islamophia' and fears of the unknown.

As educated citizens, Muslims and non-Muslims must not be easily influenced by ‘stories' put forth to them without questioning the source. We must do a reasonable amount of research to examine whether or not things are being explained correctly. Do not make premature judgments. Do not become opportunists in the sense that if something is beneficial for you, you keep your mouth shut. But when something seems to impinge on your interest, and that without proper information on your part, you run out of saliva expressing your unhappiness all over the world.

Apparently, to put an end to the jurisdictional conflict and to bring about meaningful peace and harmony, we are in dire need of a strong political will and support from the government. Efforts by academicians, government agencies or NGOs are going nowhere without the sincere commitment from the Executors and Legislators, the law makers. A number of observations have been made by various concerned parties with regard to the Federal Constitution, Acts passed by Parliament and other States enactments. Our Parliament, as well as State legislatures, with the assistance of the Attorney-General's Chambers, are urged to pay heed and take action to bring about necessary changes not only to maintain unity and stability in this country, but to advance it to new heights.
 
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Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion.

Shalom (Peace),

I'm curious about the children of Muslim parents who are raised to become Muslims. They never really had a "choice". Are they allowed at a cerain age to leave the religion, or are they stuck with it from birth as well, because your post which said "never compelled anyone to accept the religion" makes it seem like all Muslims by birth have a choice in which they can leave if they want at some period in their lives.

Could you clear this up? Thanks in advance.
 
And if her "decision" to embrace Islam was made by her parents, as is most certainly the case, before the age of consent, before she could understand the consequences of her "decision", what then? Is there an "opt out clause" when you are 15?

It is true there is similar language in the Bible, and it was used, to the great detriment of the Church, during the Inquisition..to stamp out "heretics" (Protestants).

It is now a source of considerable embarrassment.
 
1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:
I would find it quite compelling if I was told that I was going to be decapitated if I didn't accept Islam. But that maybe it is only me that thinks that would be compelling. :skeleton:
 
It's sad that a person has to suffer because of poorly written fairy tales. I wish Jesus and Mohammed never existed (well Jesus never existed so lol).
 
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