How much Christians know about Bible? What about Muslims?

[Grace Seeker]

i have an impression that some or many Christians beleive they will surely go to heaven because of faith in Jesus (p) & they don't have to keep away from major sins like adultery , gayism etc . Their concept is correct ? If not , what Church is doing to remove this wrong idea ?

To be a good Muslim , it's a must to keep away & forbid evil things & do & encourage good things.
Do Chrsitians have any such command / criteria in Bible to be a good Christian ?

Certainly there are people who are Christian in name only. Just as there are people who are Muslim in name only. These people of both faiths have all sorts of ideas, some correct, some incorrect. Oft times they will focus on just one small part of their sacred texts and base their beliefs on that, when what they have really done is take it out of context so much that they have virtually created a new religion unto themselves, though they are still at least nominally members of the faith.

What does the church do with them? We tell them to get back to church where they can get some good teaching and to quit getting their religion from either Hollywood movies or TV evangelists. I don't have a high degree of confidence in either of them for helping some one to grow in their faith as a fully rounded Christian.

To be a good Christian? There is no such thing. No Christian is truly good. The essence of the Christian faith is realizing just how bad you really are, and then turning to Christ to help you become not a better person than anyone else, but a better person than you yourself would be outside of Christ. The only person we are to compare ourselves with is Jesus. When we get that good we can relax. (In other words we can never consider ourselves as having it made.) Yet, we do have the assurance that all those who put their faith and trust in Jesus for salvation will be saved. Any person who trusts in their own goodness will get exactly what their own goodness earns for them, which is nothing. On the other hand, anyone who trusts in Christ as Savior, must also submit to Christ as Lord. And as Lord Christ commands us to do many things. Do good, keep away from evil, love one another. Those are the big overarching themes. For the specifics go to these verses (among others):
Matthew 5:13-7:14
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 28:19-20
Mark 7:9-23
Mark 9:42-50
Luke 10:25-37
Luke 18:18-27
John 13:14
John 13:34
John 15:1-17
Romans 6:11-14
Romans 12:1-2
Romans 12:9-21
Romans 13:8-14
Galatians 5:16-25 & 6:1
Ephesians 5:1-21
Philippians 4:8
Colossians 3:17


Now, let me caution you. There is NO permission for sinning in Christ Jesus. But it isn't these individual sins that are the problem for Christians. It is something bigger, the SIN nature that produces a desire to do these individual sins is the real problem. We believe that in Jesus Christ we are cleansed of that sin nature and receive the spirit of God to rule in our lives instead. Sadly, not all Christians give evidence of this. It may even be that they really haven't given themselves over to Christ and are Christians in name only. Or it may be that they have, but are growing slowing in the grace in which they now live. Only God can really know the heart of an individual so we leave that for him to judge.

So the best advice is just as this passage from Colossians says: "Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things."

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Jesus was not conceived in Mary by some divine messenger,

Jesus was conceived by God's power -- a view considerably different than that held by Muslims.

when u have time , pl. explain more about ur comments i underlined. Thanks

Christians do NOT believe that the Angel Gabriel is himself the Holy Spirit; in fact we would vehemently deny it to be true.

I read a book long ago......Christian - Muslim Dialogue
by H. M. Baagil, M.D.

the author gave 2 ref & said that Holy Spirit & Angel Gabriel is same. He talked to another Christian here .

M=Muslim , C=Chrisitan.



What is the Holy Spirit?

C. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and is also God. We are taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. We are not allowed to say Three Gods, but One God.

M. Read Matthew 1:18.

C. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.

C. "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

M. In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?

C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel


http://www.cambridgemuslims.info/Islam/CMD.htm

 

[Trumble]

M. Read Matthew 1:18.

C. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.

C. "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

M. In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?

C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel

Perhaps Baagil should have taken the trouble to read 28-35. As should 'C' apparently! If there ever was a 'C', anyway, which such blatant tosh leads me to doubt.

28) The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."

29) Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30) But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31) You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32) He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33) and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.

34) "How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35) The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God."

 

[MustafaMc]

God is One. God is not Three. And I will admit that saying that 'God is Three' is not the same as 'God is One'. No problem with that.

Now to where the problem lays:
If, when we Christians say that God exists in Trinity, what you hear is 'God is Three', then either we are not communicating what we believe very clearly, or you are misunderstanding what we are trying to say. For we are infact trying to say 'God is One' by such a statement.

We are saying that though the Bible describes God as Father, and God as Son, and God as Holy Spirit, that God is nonetheless NOT Three. God is only One. We refuse to ascribe partners to God. Jesus is not the partner of God. Jesus is the ONE God incarnate. Now you can disagree with that too; I understand that. But, please, understand that the doctrine of the Trinity is a way of saying that there really is just One God, no matter what it might look like from the outside looking in.

What concept of God does the Bible indicate that Adam, Noah, Abraham, moses, David, Solomon and Jonah had? Where else other than in a few NT verses does the concept of (not word) Trinity exist?

 

[MustafaMc]

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The Christian "assurance of salvation" is true ONLY if their doctrine is true. Although they sincerely BELIEVE that the Christian doctrine is true that salvation is assured for those who accept Jesus as their Savior and believe that Jesus was the Son of God and at the same time God, that he died on the cross for their sins, and that he was raised from the dead after 3 days, there is absolutely no way for them to KNOW that it is true on this side of death and Judgment Day. The deception comes in to play when they say they KNOW they are saved.

To be assured of salvation is a great temptation to mislead Muslims from Islam. I hope that all Muslims can see the deception.

But the same thing is also true in reverse. To say that one knows that Muhammad is a prophet of God and that his message is true is a doctrinal statement this is true only if the doctrine is itself true. There is no way for a Muslim to KNOW that it is true on this side of death and Judgment Day any more than (and also no less than) for a Christian to KNOW his beliefs to be true.

I am surprised by your response, you ususally address the post and not side-step the issue. I was clearly talking about salvation.

I don't believe that I have ever said or ever heard a Muslim say that they KNOW Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet, or that they KNOW the Quran is the Word of God. (That was not my point, though.) Neither have I heard any Muslim say "I know that I am saved" or answer the question, "If you were to die tonight, where would you go - Heaven or Hell?" with, "Heaven." However, I often hear this type of statement from Christians, with the most recent example from Alapiana. How can anyone today KNOW that they are saved? For that matter how can anyone KNOW there is life after death and a Heaven or Hell? These matters clearly fall in the arena of faith.

 

[vpb]

with, "Heaven." However, I often hear this type of statement from Christians, with the most recent example from Alapiana. How can anyone today KNOW that they are saved? For that matter how can anyone KNOW there is life after death and a Heaven or Hell? These matters clearly fall in the arena of faith.

they claim that they have day of judgement, so if they know if they are saved or not why have a day of judgement?? or vice-versa. lollll

 

[vpb]

What concept of God does the Bible indicate that Adam, Noah, Abraham, moses, David, Solomon and Jonah had? Where else other than in a few NT verses does the concept of (not word) Trinity exist?

they should have preached the concept of trinity or that God consists of The Father , The Holy ....... or otherwise someone's wrong here.

 

[Keltoi]

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament coined the word Trinity. The OT and NT does speak of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The OT and NT does state that these entities come from God. Knowing that these entities are from and part of God, the word Trinity was coined to describe the nature of God and His interaction with mankind. Christians understand that the word Trinity isn't found in the Bible or the NT. It isn't the word that is important but the concept.

 

[Goku]

Neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament coined the word Trinity. The OT and NT does speak of God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The OT and NT does state that these entities come from God. Knowing that these entities are from and part of God, the word Trinity was coined to describe the nature of God and His interaction with mankind. Christians understand that the word Trinity isn't found in the Bible or the NT. It isn't the word that is important but the concept.

I havent seen any reference to the concept of Trinity in the OT, it does say:


Deuteronomy Chapter 6

4:Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

 

[Balthasar21]

What are you talking about?

Perhaps in the Qur'an one identifies the angel Gabriel with the Holy Spirit. But in the Bible they are NOT one and the same. This can be seen by the very verses from Luke which you cited:


Who is speaking? Answer: ο αγγελος .
To whom is the angel speaking? Answer: αυτη, the pronoun refering back to its antecedent in verse 30 -- μαριαμ
And what is the subject of the conversation between the angel and Mary? Answer: πνευμα αγιον
So the angel and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same.


Also, take a look at επισκιασει. It carries the sense of the holy, powerful presence of God himself, not just that of a messenger. So when Mary is overshadowed by the power of the Most High it is as in the description of the cloud "covered" (in the Hebrew sakan ) the tabernacle when the tent was filled with the glory of God (cf. Exodus 40:35 -- וּמָשַׁחְתָּ֣ אֹתָ֗ם כַּאֲשֶׁ֤ר מָשַׁ֙חְתָּ֙ אֶת־אֲבִיהֶ֔ם וְכִהֲנ֖וּ לִ֑י וְ֠הָיְתָה לִהְיֹ֨ת לָהֶ֧ם מָשְׁחָתָ֛ם לִכְהֻנַּ֥ת עֹולָ֖ם לְדֹרֹתָֽם ׃ ).

Also compare with

Matthew 17:5 -- ετι αυτου λαλουντος ιδου νεφελη φωτεινη επεσκιασεν αυτους και ιδου φωνη εκ της νεφελης λεγουσα ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος εν ω ευδοκησα ακουετε αυτου.

Mark 9:7 -- και εγενετο νεφελη επισκιαζουσα αυτοις και εγενετο φωνη εκ της νεφελης ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος ακουετε αυτου.

and
Luke 9:34 -- ταυτα δε αυτου λεγοντος εγενετο νεφελη και επεσκιαζεν αυτους εφοβηθησαν δε εν τω εισελθειν αυτους εις την νεφελην.

Note how we have the same word, that I have highlighted for you, in those texts which recount the Transfiguration of Jesus when they describe the overshadowing cloud. And likewise, in each account the voice comes out of the cloud identifying Jesus as God's son (not Gabriel's son), a striking reminder of Luke 1:35 where the life that results from the enveloping cloud is identified as the Son of God.


Oh, and just as a point of information, the New Testament was written in Koine Greek, not ancient Greek; and while Hebrew and Aramaic are related languages, they are not the same as you seem to have implied above -- "recording incidents that were being spoken in Aramic ( Hebrew )". Indeed, there were people who could read Aramaic who could not read Hebrew.

And lastly you don't translate word-for-word between any two langauges if you want to get an understanding of the message. Again, let's look at one phrase from the verse above: το γεννωμενον αγιον κληθησεται υιος θεου. Literally that translates into English as follows: "the thing being born holy will be called son of God". Of course, Jesus is not a thing, Jesus is a person. Also, is αγιον to be understood as a predicate adjective or a modifer of the subject? Personally, I prefer to render it "the holy one to be born will be called (the) son of God", in which I have added the English article "the" which I believe is also implied by the syntax.

This is funny LOLOLOLOLOL
Let's get something Straight from the door ok , Yashu'a never spoke GREEK / LATIN nor English . And any Christian THEOLOGIAN or Religious Scholar / MINISTER'ssss etc will tell you this . And anytime you change one language to another you lost the true meaning of word , With all your diffrent Version / Translation of The By - Bill None of you Christians Have the true teaching Of Yashu'a , Not counting the many diffrent Denomination who have their own teaching as the J.W. etc etc . So let's not play games here ok . You can play this game with SOME muslims who feel they shouldn't read the by - bill = Bible ... Which is one of their mistake .

Thank you for your answer any way

 

[Grace Seeker]

What concept of God does the Bible indicate that Adam, Noah, Abraham, moses, David, Solomon and Jonah had? Where else other than in a few NT verses does the concept of (not word) Trinity exist?

In scripture it doesn't, though as others such as alapiana1 have expressed on this forum before, there are hints of it in some Old Testament passages. But I would go so far as to even say that the companions of Jesus did not understand this either until toward the end of Jesus' ministry. And it wasn't a message that Jesus came to bring either. We aren't trying to prove anything with it. But it was an awareness that dawned on them from their experience of knowing Jesus. And because of finally coming to that awareness they proclaimed it, and to deny its reality would be tell less than the whole truth with regard to God.

 

[Balthasar21]

What?

I'm sorry, I thought that English was your first language and that perhaps you also spoke the original languages the scriptures were written in based on your previous post.

What is it that you did not understand in my previous post?

Are you says their TWO DIFFRENT Gabriel YES OR NO LOLOLOLOLOL

 

[Balthasar21]

Jesus prayed that we may be one even as He and his Father are one. I have experienced that oneness. That is my strength.

alapiana1 < says > prayed that we may be one even as He and his Father are one.



Are you saying Jesus was praying to himself .
And if Jesus was god then why would he have a need to pray .

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/ peace ;




when u have time , pl. explain more about ur comments i underlined. Thanks




I read a book long ago......Christian - Muslim Dialogue
by H. M. Baagil, M.D.

the author gave 2 ref & said that Holy Spirit & Angel Gabriel is same. He talked to another Christian here .

M=Muslim , C=Chrisitan.



What is the Holy Spirit?

C. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost and is also God. We are taught that the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Ghost is God. We are not allowed to say Three Gods, but One God.

M. Read Matthew 1:18.

C. "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was in this way: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost."

M. Compare this with Luke 1:26-27.

C. "And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary."

M. In Jesus' miraculous birth Matthew mentioned the Holy Ghost and Luke mentioned the angel Gabriel. What is the Holy Ghost?

C. That being the case, the Holy Ghost is the angel Gabriel


http://www.cambridgemuslims.info/Islam/CMD.htm

I appreciate what you are trying to show here; however, are you aware that there really is NOT a Muslim/Christian dialogue in what your referred me to. It may have that title, but it is a former Christian, reverted to a Muslim having a conversation with himself. Thus the whole thing is a Muslim work.

I started reading it thinking it was indeed a dialogue, and I couldn't believe some of the things presented in the supposedly "Christian" point of view. I have never heard Christians say those sorts of things. So, I wanted to read who the Christian representative was. And when I checked it out, behold the Christian view was from a person who had announced his shahadah, and then the miscellaneous and anonymous "dialogues that I had with members of the Christian clergy and laity". These are presented only in the form of a strawman argument, of the type I don't believe ever actually took place. Notice how quickly and easily the supposed Christian converts to Islam in the "dialogue". It is like he could hardly wait. Just reading them, they have been editted down to a smooth seamless flow in order to present the theological suppositions of Islam in the form of a covnersation. If you think that these are really Christian arguments and responses that you are finding in this book, then you have been misled.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I am surprised by your response, you ususally address the post and not side-step the issue. I was clearly talking about salvation.

I don't believe that I have ever said or ever heard a Muslim say that they KNOW Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet, or that they KNOW the Quran is the Word of God. (That was not my point, though.) Neither have I heard any Muslim say "I know that I am saved" or answer the question, "If you were to die tonight, where would you go - Heaven or Hell?" with, "Heaven." However, I often hear this type of statement from Christians, with the most recent example from Alapiana. How can anyone today KNOW that they are saved? For that matter how can anyone KNOW there is life after death and a Heaven or Hell? These matters clearly fall in the arena of faith.

Ah, so your argument was with the whole concept of assurance and that it is available for anyone. I didn't get that from it the first time.

Well, the assurance comes by faith. Without faith there is not assurance. With faith, there is. But as you and I appear to agree, it is faith not knowledge.

I would illustrate it this way, does a child know that he can depend on his parents to protect him. Ask the child that question, and they will say "yes". Yet, we know that terrible things happen to children because parents aren't always able to protect them. This doesn't make the child's statement any less true, it is a statement of faith, of the confidence and trust they put in their parents.

I have worked at Christian camps for teenagers, and one of the teaching tools we use is something called a "Trust Fall". One individual climbs up on something off the ground while others stand behind them. Then the first individual cross his arms across his chest, leans his body backwards and falls into the arms of the group waiting to catch him. There is just a moment in doing it when the one falling feels the sense of it and panics, yet before the have time to respond to that panic they are cradled in the arms of their companions who have caught them. It really is a cool feeling. We use that as a teaching moment to talk about trust. Sometimes a person will panic and get nervous before they actually start to fall, the put their hands back as if to catch themselves or do other things. This is when it gets dangerous. For the only way to get hurt in this scenario is to NOT trust. If one really does trust, one will always be safe. (Now, mind you, don't go out and do this based only on the little bit I have described here, I have done this many times and there are a few other precautions we take in the process to assure people's safety even if they do mess up and don't trust. You could get injured if performed improperly.) But in many ways this is a parallel to what Chrstiains mean by faith in Jesus. Because we know (as in through a personal relationship) Jesus, we know that he will catch us and save us. That's the type of knowing that we experience in the Christian faith. And it does give us a calm assurance. Now, if we are wrong about him and he is unable, then just like Paul spoke of in 1 Corinthians 15 our faith is useless and our hope is in vain. That's the risk we take. But because of the confidence we have in Jesus Christ, it doesn't seem like a risk at all. In fact, not trusting him, would be what would seem to be so risky.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Are you says their TWO DIFFRENT Gabriel YES OR NO LOLOLOLOLOL

I don't understand this sentence. It doesn't make any grammatical sense in English.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

they claim that they have day of judgement, so if they know if they are saved or not why have a day of judgement?? or vice-versa. lollll

may be , for Muslims , Hindus , Atheists , pagans & others.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/ peace ;

with, "Heaven." However, I often hear this type of statement from Christians, with the most recent example from Alapiana. How can anyone today KNOW that they are saved? For that matter how can anyone KNOW there is life after death and a Heaven or Hell? These matters clearly fall in the arena of faith.

they claim that they have day of judgement, so if they know if they are saved or not why have a day of judgement?? or vice-versa. lollll

may be , for Muslims , Hindus , Atheists , pagans & others.

There are repeated references to a final judgment in both the Old and the New Testaments. This is visualized with different metaphors of a refiner's fire, a harverster in the fields, a courtroom judgment seat, etc.

The key idea is that everyone (Christians too) is tried for one's life, and if we faced this judgment all on our own we would fail. The Christian has one who comes alongside him/her as an advocate with God and that is none other than Jesus himself who pleads our defense. The accuser is Satan, and God must decide whether to accept the testimony of Satan or of Jesus with regard to our lives. Faith is believing that having Jesus as our advocate will make a difference.

As to when this final judgment of the individual takes place, at the moment of death or at a final resurrection of all people on the last day, there are verses that lean both ways.

 

[Balthasar21]

I don't understand this sentence. It doesn't make any grammatical sense in English.

With the many culture's and the diffrent Language / Dialect here in the U.S. No one person speak's English , Pick any five people who live's in your Area and listen to the way they talk , Meaning the
Sound's / Tone's . No one here speaking english . So your above grammatical doesn't make Sense , Nor are you saying something slick .

 

[Woodrow]

There are repeated references to a final judgment in both the Old and the New Testaments. This is visualized with different metaphors of a refiner's fire, a harverster in the fields, a courtroom judgment seat, etc.

The key idea is that everyone (Christians too) is tried for one's life, and if we faced this judgment all on our own we would fail. The Christian has one who comes alongside him/her as an advocate with God and that is none other than Jesus himself who pleads our defense. The accuser is Satan, and God must decide whether to accept the testimony of Satan or of Jesus with regard to our lives. Faith is believing that having Jesus as our advocate will make a difference.

As to when this final judgment of the individual takes place, at the moment of death or at a final resurrection of all people on the last day, there are verses that lean both ways.

These are some of the points that confused me about Christianity. I'll try to explain how they confuse me.

The key idea is that everyone (Christians too) is tried for one's life, and if we faced this judgment all on our own we would fail.

That I do not actually disagree with. But I would say that that knowing that God(swt) is all merciful and will judge each of us as individuals and only in accordance to our abilities tells me I can trust God's(swt) judgment and I will be judged fairly if I stand alone or have a million advocates intervening for me. The final out come will be the same no matter who represents me or if I stand alone. If there was a difference based upon who I have as an advocate seems to say that God(swt) is powerless to judge on his own. But, I do know that I have God's(swt) mercy and justice to understand my side and that understanding is all the advocate I need. I will not be standing alone God(swt) Himself will be there to judge me in the fairest and most merciful way possible.

The Christian has one who comes alongside him/her as an advocate with God and that is none other than Jesus himself who pleads our defense.

Since God(swt) is a fair judge, what need is there for an advocate? Will God(swt) be more fair or show more mercy if we bring forth a strong advocate to plead for us? If that is true, aren't we placing a limitation on God's(swt) ability to be fair and merciful?

The accuser is Satan, and God must decide whether to accept the testimony of Satan or of Jesus with regard to our lives.

Doesn't God(swt) already know what is in our hearts and what sins we are truly guilty of? Is God(swt) going to listen to the words of Satan over what He has knowledge of?

Faith is believing that having Jesus as our advocate will make a difference.

If God(swt) is truly just, and all knowing what need is there for an advocate? I have absolute faith that God(swt) will judge me fairly and that He knows my sins better than I do.

This sounds like a Non-Christian is already convicted because he did not hire a good lawyer.