Indonesia: Another Christian Church Attacked In Bandung

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What I am having a hard time understanding is this extreme reaction to "apostasy".

If a faith is so inherently beautiful and rewarding to those who see its light, then why is there a need to punish thsoe who lose faith? Wouldn't the loss of a true relationship with God be sufficient?

With all due respect, it seems kind of 15th century.
 
What I am having a hard time understanding is this extreme reaction to "apostasy".

If a faith is so inherently beautiful and rewarding to those who see its light, then why is there a need to punish thsoe who lose faith? Wouldn't the loss of a true relationship with God be sufficient?

With all due respect, it seems kind of 15th century.


Since you asked the question, I hope you can give up some of your time to read this response by brother Ansar,

:sl:

In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:

1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?


Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.


Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.


So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.


From another of my posts:
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?
As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.

:w:

_______

Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_d...ection=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions#28

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html
 
A Christian Westerner has no concept of what it is like to have your friends, and relatives become apostates and then try to spread their apostasy.

If i had friends or relatives apostaes i would surely Not burn their church/mosque/temple/.


I do see the need to silence those who spread false teachings, but I believe that should be done as peacefully as possible.

Ermmm? What? You must be joking i guess. And what if those who spread false teaching ( christianity you mean , right?) wouldnt want to be silent? Whats then? What next steps would you take to silent them?

Would this have made World News if instead of a church it was a Satanic Temple and the people were spreading Satanism? Suppose it had been a Satanic temple, would the Christian world still be condemning the attack or would they be secretly praising the attackers?

You compare christian churches to satanic temple?

As a Muslim I view the spreading of any false religion to be offensive. Non-Muslims living in Muslim countries need to be aware that their teachings are very offensive to Muslims. When you live in a country, a person needs to be aware of the need to avoid needlessly offending the majority. But, that does not mean people should be harmed or property needlessly damaged.

And what about freedom of religion? And how would you feel if westerners banned teaching islam in West ?
You muslims want more and more muslim schools in West. You demand halal food in our schools. You want special prayer rooms in airports and jails.You want seperate swimmingpools for girls and boys, Here in West. And you still say that non muslim faiths are very offensive for muslims in muslim countries?It sounds like huge Hipocrysy. But it is ok, christian faith was persecuted in ancient Rome as well, and see how it all ended. You can burn churches, even with people "spreading false teachings" inside, but you wont stop the Truth. Not by using violence.

If i had friends or relatives apostaes i would surely Not burn their church/mosque/temple/.
Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

Ermmm? What? You must be joking i guess. And what if those who spread false teaching ( christianity you mean , right?) wouldnt want to be silent? Whats then? What next steps would you take to silent them?
Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.

You compare christian churches to satanic temple?
Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

And what about freedom of religion? And how would you feel if westerners banned teaching islam in West ?
I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

You muslims want more and more muslim schools in West. You demand halal food in our schools. You want special prayer rooms in airports and jails.You want seperate swimmingpools for girls and boys, Here in West. And you still say that non muslim faiths are very offensive for muslims in muslim countries?It sounds like huge Hipocrysy.
Yes we do want the things all people want for themselves. But, I believe you will find that most Muslims are willing to pay their portion of the bill to have those things provided.

But it is ok, christian faith was persecuted in ancient Rome as well, and see how it all ended.
We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

You can burn churches, even with people "spreading false teachings" inside, but you wont stop the Truth. Not by using violence.

I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does.
 
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The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.
 
The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.


If there was Islamic Extremism, i.e. following Islaam whole-heartedly, then there wouldn't be the killing of innocents, or women, children, seniors in war etc. :)

So please don't use that term if them actions don't belong to Islaam.



Thankyou.
 

To be perfectly honest, Indonesian Christians have also beheaded Muslims.

Many Muslims have been murdered by Christians on predominantly Christian Indonesian islands.

So, the violence works both ways. The Christians are neither innocent nor weak. They have committed their fair-share of atrocities...

Give some proofs first.
 
Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

So do i.


Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.
Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.


Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

The same thing i think about islam.


I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.




We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?



I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does.

But..? (there is always some "but" isn't?) but if apostates dont sit silent in their homes...but if apostates wont stop building their churches..
 
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Give some proofs first.

Here's one for now. God Willing, I'll provide more, later...

Christian Terrorists:

Twelve Christians From Poso face The Death Penalty For Terrorism Offences.


The trials of twelve Christian men accused of murdering two Muslims near Poso, Central Sulawesi, have begun at the South Jakarta District Court. The men are charged under both the 2002 Anti-Terrorism law and articles in the criminal code, and face the death penalty if convicted.

The defendants are Harpri Tumonggi alias Api (28), Darman Aja alias Panye (23), Edwin Poima alias Epin (25), Agus Chandra alias Anda (23), Syaiful Ibrahim alias Ipul (22), Erosman Tioki alias Eman (28), Walsus Alpin alias Eje (24). Also being tried separately are Benhard Tompodusu alias Tende (28), Sastra Yudawastu Naser alias Ibo (23), Romi Yanto Parusu alias Romi (19), Fernikson Bontura alias Kenong (20), Jefri Bontura alias Ate (21).

In the aftermath of the executions of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva in September 2006 Christians in various parts of the country staged a number of sometimes violent protests, both locally in and around Poso and in towns in Flores such as Atambua. In one such protest on 23rd September 2006 a mob of Christians set up a roadblock on the Trans Sulawesi road and stopped motorists to inspect their identity papers, presumably to find out what religion they were (see KTP Religion). One of the vehicles stopped by the defendants was a cargo van driven by small trader Arham Badaruddin, 40, and his helper Wandi, 25, both of whom hailed from South Sulawesi - these two men were then forced out of the van and beaten to death, over an extended period.

Lead prosecutor Bayu Adhinugroho Arianto told presiding judge Achmad Sobari it was Syaiful Ibrahim alias Ipul’s idea to set up the roadblock to protest the executions of Fabianus Tibo, Marinus Riwu and Dominggus da Silva on September 22nd 2006.

Judge Achmad Sobari adjourned the hearing until April 12th, at which time the court will begin hearing from 10 witnesses called by the prosecution. [1]

Source:
http://www.indonesiamatters.com/1204/christian-terrorists/
 
Neither would I. But I would grieve for them and pray that they return to the truth.

So do i.


Not just Christianity. Any religion other than Islam. If they choose not to be silent I would support the outlawing of Evangelicalism, enforced by fines and if need be jail time. I do advovate the freedom of choice for people to worship as they desire, however I am against anyone preaching with the intent of converting people, to people that are not willing inquirers in their home or place of worship.
Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.


Yes, but I do not see them as directly worshiping satan but unknowingly serve him by leading people away from the worship of God(swt)

The same thing i think about islam.


I do not favor banning of releigions. I am against the open evangelizing of them to people that are not seeking information about them. I can agree with with Westerners if they choose to out-law the public evangelization of Islam as long as they do so equally and do not prevent anyone from worshiping as they choose.

Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.




We do not want to persecute non-Muslims we just do not want them to be blatantly and unabashed leading our Brothers and Sisters into hellfire.

But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?



[/QUOTE]

I do not advocate the use of violence and I do not know a single Muslim who does

So do i.



Trying to ban preaching christianity is the best way to spread it.Just look what is happening in China, Birma,Cambodia, Vietnam and Indonesia also. They also try so much to stop and ban preaching the Gospel, and the more they try the more christians are in those countries. I am sure that after those churcches in Indonesia were burned, those christians there didnt leave their faith, but some muslims rather felt shamed about actions of their brothers in fath.
Christianity grows best and fastest on martyrs' soil. So your bannings and jails would do the opposite action that you want. But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me.


That is all true. Like you said "But it is just God's plan.It doesnt depend on you and me." We can only pray that our Brothers and Sisters have the wisdom not to be led into apostacy. Another step is to expand the teachings of Islam to the young people so that God(swt) will grant them the knowledge not to become apostates.




The same thing i think about islam.

That is only fair and if most Christians were honest I believe they would say the same.




Yes yes, but muslims actually do public evangelization in Europe and USA (for example american prisons).But i am really not worried about it. Lately some westerners converted to islam, but the main reason is that islam is seen as something new, something opposite to western civilization (thats why so many leftists and people with liberal attitudes convert to islam, as they hate West and western values).Converting to islam is seen cool now in West, just like being a communist 30 years ago, or alter globalist decade ago.Islam is seen by some westerners as another ideology which is in opposition to capitalistic and "imperialistic" west.But this fashion will go away as suddenly as it appeared.It will happen when people understand that islam is just like every other religion, with its good points and weaknesses also.
I am not aware of any Muslims doing any Public Evangelizing here in the US. The NOI does, especially in prisons and many non-Muslims do mistake them for Muslims. I can not speak about Europe. It has been a long time since I been in any European countries.

Perhaps some people revert to Islam for the reasons you mentioned. However, those are all the wrong reasons and I would doubt if any would maintain the discipline to truly practice Islam, if that is why they revert.

I reverted simply because I felt the truth of the Qur'an one day when I was reading it in an attempt to improve my Arabic. The feeling I had that day, and still have was hundreds of times stronger, than the day I accepted Jesus(as) and was over come with the "Holy Spirit" as a born again Christian. After accepting Islam and learning to truly worship Allah(swt) did I understand just how wrong my Christian feelings had been. No, it was not an immediate change jumping from devout Christian to Muslim. There was 40 years in between during which I was sort of torn between being agnostic, Buddhist or whatever. I had never wanted to be a Muslim, I did not seek it and for a long time I would have been considered an enemy of Islam.

Allah(swt) literally smacked me off the side of my head and woke me up.






But when other ways fails, persecution and "silencing" are acceptable right?

Persecution is never acceptable and silencing has to be done without harm to the person. But, to be honest some people are difficult to get to be silent. i guess if we can't silence them we can try to ignore them and teach our children to avoid them





But..? (there is always some "but" isn't?) but if apostates dont sit silent in their homes...but if apostates wont stop building their churches..


Already as an apostate they know they have lost all of their birth rights as Muslims. I suspect that many apostates will give up their rebellion against their family and eventually return to Islam.
 
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What is wrong with some of the people here - especially those actually supporting it?

'An eye for an eye'??!

This is not the teaching of the Prophet - indeed, we are meant to reciprocate evil with good, and that's the way Islam REALLY spread - it's the example guys, not the force or trying to be all powerful or something.


Sigh.
 
using some one else's evil as a justification for yours is not only faulty logic, but it irritates me because i run in to this all the time when i criticize what my country is doing - people will justify it by pointing out some horrendous thing in a muslim country and saying that it worse.
for example by the logic of some here, the u.s. is justified torturing prisoners, kidnapping people etc etc.? i don't think so.
don't you see the problem with this thinking?
btw, when i have a country, i will allow freedom of religion, but not proselytizing. some of the christian groups in the u.s. are very well funded and convert people by giving them material goods - i've know some hindus who object very strongly to their practices in india, for example.
 
Give some proofs first.

nooooo no christians never commit atrocities or crimes. no sir! no proof is needed, you are a splended ppl! you dont ever kill or commit genocide nopppppppp no sir!

no no you dont do that yes you are perfect, your preists just have sex with alter boys thats all, yes i think thats your only problem other than that your a splending folk to behold! as the popularity ratings sometimes say!
 
nooooo no christians never commit atrocities or crimes. no sir! no proof is needed, you are a splended ppl! you dont ever kill or commit genocide nopppppppp no sir!

no no you dont do that yes you are perfect, your preists just have sex with alter boys thats all, yes i think thats your only problem other than that your a splending folk to behold! as the popularity ratings sometimes say!

How profound....
 
The religious violence in Indonesia has seen a major surge in the past 20-30 years. Most experts point to the growth of Islamic extremism, the same kind practiced in the Middle East.
like I said before times are now such that anything said against Muslims will be believed.and personally I don't have any sympathy for Indonesian Christians IF they are trying to evangelize( I don't care what happens in Europe;its your duty to ban Muslim evangelism,heck I never thought things like that could ever happen) and harm the Muslim population in Indonesia.
If apostates are trying to evangelize they should be deported but usually you get reactions like this.
 
Guys, can we all stop this mindless tit-for-tat logic? Aren't we Muslims supposed to rise above what is thrown at us rather than indulging in it vengefully? Some of the logic I'm seeing here is just silly. If Tommy kills Bob's child, does that give Bob the right to kill Tommy's child? According to some of the logic I'm seeing here it would.
 
This thread has gone from debate to emotionalism. Logic and reason have gone out the back door and so is the thread. You may read it for reference but it is now locked for posting. It will be reopened if somebody can give justification as to why it should be.

:threadclo
 
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