Is there a contradiction and confusiong concerning the punishment for fornication

[Muslim Knight]

Knight. Did you watch the video link? If so, then did you consider the 15 minuites of bloody violence a just punishment for the girls, exacting allahs justice? Or just a pack of animals showing Human nature,(actually male nature) at its worst?

I don't have to watch it, it is not incumbent on me. However, I know a lot other punishment... sorry, tortures, that are much worse and ill befits justice.

Like in the other thread about stoning, someone has said that we focus too much on Islamic punishment on convicted felon, while we forget there are many more heinous tortures conducted within so-called heart of democracy.

You speak about animals? Tell that to the Gitmo prisoners when so-called Liberators of Iraq unleashed the dogs upon them. And I meant it literally.

 

[barney]

I don't have to watch it, it is not incumbent on me. However, I know a lot other punishment... sorry, tortures, that are much worse and ill befits justice.

Like in the other thread about stoning, someone has said that we focus too much on Islamic punishment on convicted felon, while we forget there are many more heinous tortures conducted within so-called heart of democracy.

You speak about animals? Tell that to the Gitmo prisoners when so-called Liberators of Iraq unleashed the dogs upon them. And I meant it literally.

It's "incumbant" (why even use that word? :rollseyes ) if you wish to understand what you are actually talking about.

You know of worse punishments. Perhaps youve seen inside a Iranian prison?

The Dogs in Gitmo were on leashes, Ive seen that footage.So they were barking and snarling and the detainee was scared. Thats worse than the video you are not Incumbered to watch? Okie, you'll never know then.

Heres a list of Gitmo torture that was leaked to the US press and caused a unholy stink.
http://www.time.com/time/2006/log/log.pdf

The guy gets slapped with a rubber glove full of water, told to read swimwear catalogues, Christina Agularia music played at all hours of the day and insulted constantly.

They suspected he was the 20th Hijacker on 11/9 They dont actually throw any rocks into his skull for suspecting him of "Fornicating".

 

[Malaikah]

They suspected he was the 20th Hijacker on 11/9 They dont actually throw any rocks into his skull for suspecting him of "Fornicating".

Islam does not allow this either. Stoning is only applied to a person who commits adultery (i.e. married person who has sexual intercourse outside if marriage) and the whole act was scene by four righteous witnesses and it is carried out by the government NOT by random people... just to name a few conditions.

 

[barney]

Islam does not allow this either. Stoning is only applied to a person who commits adultery (i.e. married person who has sexual intercourse outside if marriage) and the whole act was scene by four righteous witnesses and it is carried out by the government NOT by random people... just to name a few conditions.

The answer was directed at the above poster saying "everyone says Islam is Brutal...look at the brutality in Gitmo"

My reply is ..Gitmo isnt "Brutal" it's certainly nasty, its touching the very edges of decency, it may well not be lawful. but we dont stone them in there....and we dont stone someone for having an affair. By modern civilised standards, IMO, thats brutal.

So as a muslim poster stated, a gang-rape victim is entitled to be stoned...because she cant bring 4 witnesses.(other than the rapers).
Iran is a government and it stones away happily.

"What! if she told the truth why did she not bring forth 4 wittnesses?"

Well..perhaps because she was in a wood getting raped. Mayby only 3 people saw it. Mayby there was only 3 men and a woman? To name but a few conditions.

 

[asadxyz]

So as a muslim poster stated, a gang-rape victim is entitled to be stoned...because she cant bring 4 witnesses.(other than the rapers).
.

Assalaamo Alaikum:
Please correct it if you are referring to my posting.Gang rape victim is not entitled to be stoned rather the "Rapers" must be stoned to death.
It is not her fault: and the Holy Quran says;
وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى
(35:18) No bearer of a burden will bear another's burden
Best of luck

 

[syilla]

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-jurisprudence/33360-stoning.html :thumbs_up

 

[barney]

Assalaamo Alaikum:
Please correct it if you are referring to my posting.Gang rape victim is not entitled to be stoned rather the "Rapers" must be stoned to death.
It is not her fault: and the Holy Quran says;
وَلَا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى
(35:18) No bearer of a burden will bear another's burden
Best of luck

Woman claims she is raped. Husband claims she is an adultress, no witnesses.

Whatever really. A woman is unfaithful...divorce her. No need for stoning a thousand years after humans grew up.

 

[asadxyz]

Woman claims she is raped. Husband claims she is an adultress, no witnesses.

Whatever really. A woman is unfaithful...divorce her. No need for stoning a thousand years after humans grew up.

There are many crimes which are comitted but not proved in the world.Then naturally the accused are acquitted.
I could not make out what you want to say.
Best of luck

 

[Malaikah]

So as a muslim poster stated, a gang-rape victim is entitled to be stoned...because she cant bring 4 witnesses.(other than the rapers).
Iran is a government and it stones away happily.

"What! if she told the truth why did she not bring forth 4 wittnesses?"

Well..perhaps because she was in a wood getting raped. Mayby only 3 people saw it. Mayby there was only 3 men and a woman? To name but a few conditions.

WHAT!!!!!! Who said that?!

That is not true! They can't prove that she wasn't raped! They would need to prove that she did in fact commit adultery. They have no witnesses themselves!

What a horrific mentality.

Please read this:

In case there are no witnesses and no confession then the woman will not receive punishment just because of pregnancy. Women can fall pregnant without committing illegal sexual intercourse. A woman could be raped or coerced. In this case, she is a victim and not the perpetrator of a crime.

Therefore, she cannot be punished or even accused of misconduct merely on the strength of her falling pregnant. This opinion is held by many people of knowledge. Ibn Qudâmah said in his book al-Mughnî:

If a woman becomes pregnant without having a husband or a master, she may not be punished and, in stead, she should be asked about it, if she claimed that she was coerced into it or that she committed adultery under dubious circumstances, or if she simply does not confess adultery then she will not be punished. This is the saying of Abu Hanîfah and al-Shâfi`î ,because she may be pregnant as a result of a forceful intercourse or dubious circumstances. Punishment will be abandoned in case suspicion exists. It is well known that a woman could become pregnant without engaging in true intercourse. The woman may become pregnant if sperm is manually inserted into her vagina. This would explain how a virgin becomes pregnant.​

This is clearly the correct and most just ruling on the matter.​

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_section.cfm?q_id=158&main_cat_id=6

Woman claims she is raped. Husband claims she is an adultress, no witnesses.

Whatever really. A woman is unfaithful...divorce her. No need for stoning a thousand years after humans grew up.

Yeh, the adulter absolutely ruins his/her life and life of his/her spouse and children and deeply hurts the extended family and friends and destroys the make-up of society by striking at the family level, and all we can say is 'hey whatever'...

Man, even a thief is punished and a theft is no where near as damaging as adultery!

 

[Thanaa]

For those who havnt seen a stoning of a fornicator. Here is a clip of what it's like. Be warned though, it's not pretty. Dont click the link if you are offended by stoning.

Having said that, It's I think vital that people who support stoning know what it involves.

http://www.filecabi.net/video/horrific-stone.html

The quality is terrible.

This one is hosted by the anti-iran womens site.
http://noiri.blogspot.com/
Its about halfway down the page on the left
The video is one originally put on the net by a group hostile to islam, and so for the first few seconds shows a picture of a skull and "Islam in action". It also refers to surahs where the prophet indicated stoning as a punishment.
It also sarcastically shows the words "Religion of peace"

If you close your eyes for the first 20 seconds, you'll miss that and so wont be insulted by the references. But open them afterwards because then you will know,(if youve never seen a stoning, or only seen one from the back of a crowd), what the fate of Fornicators is.

No, stoning is for adulterers. Funnily enough, its supposed to be practiced by Christians and Jews too. The song about child molestation in the video on the second page was a nice touch. *sarcasm*
This page is against stoning being part of sharia law...as in, it says that its not.
However there are Hadith that state that stoning is allowed.

 

[asadxyz]

Interesting to note:
The Jewish Legal System: Laws of Damages: Capital Punishment:
Does the Torah allow capital punishment?

Four death penalties - stoning, burning, beheading, and strangling - are prescribed for various major sins (Mishnah Sanhedrin 7:1). Administration of these penalties was rare because a person could be executed (or flogged) only if he had been warned by the witnesses and had insisted on committing the sin. Stoning was the only death penalty that could be given to an animal (for killing a person). All the death penalties were carried out as humanely as possible, to ensure that they would result in a quick death; for example, "stoning" was done by pushing the person off a cliff.
Ask a follow-up question

source:http://www.islamicboard.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=43928

:? :? :?

Another interesting evidence of capital punishment in Bible:
Sermon given May 7, 1999, by Rabbi Samuel M. Stahl


Let me, at the outset, pose the obvious question whenever the issue of the death penalty arises. If, God forbid, one of my daughters were murdered, would I want the murderer to be executed? My answer would be, “Yes, absolutely!” My initial response, I am certain, would be an urge to take revenge against the killer. It’s a normal human reaction. Yet, I do not think that I should act on that base desire, because I believe that the death penalty is wrong.

Last month, a national conference to organize the religious community against the death penalty was held in San Antonio. The reason that San Antonio was chosen is troubling. Last year, at the previous conference, the presiding officer asked delegates from around the country to name the states that they represented. When the representatives from Texas were identified, they were hissed and booed, because we Texans live in the death penalty capital of the nation. More criminals are executed here each year than in any other state of the Union. Following that incident, the Texas delegation invited those who were assembled at that gathering to Texas this year to bear witness in the state where the cry against the death penalty must be heard the loudest. That cry is being heard in many sectors throughout America.

Our American Jewish organizations generally oppose capital punishment. Both the Central Conference of American Rabbis and the Rabbinical Assembly of America, representing the Reform and the Conservative rabbinates, respectively, have issued strong condemnations against capital punishment. So has the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, parent body of almost 900 Reform congregations in the United States and Canada, whose president, Rabbi Eric Yoffie, will be our guest speaker next Friday. The Union has gone so far as to call capital punishment a “stain upon civilization and our religious conscience.” These Jewish religious bodies have solid Jewish precedents upon which to base their fierce opposition.

We must admit quite frankly that in the five books of Moses, the Torah prescribes the death penalty for thirty-six different offenses. Among them are rape, idol worship, and even flagrant disrespect of parents. Murder definitely was a capital crime in those days. The book of Exodus tells us that “He who fatally strikes a person shall be put to death,” (21:12) and the books of Genesis and Leviticus restate that view. .............

source:http://www.beth-elsa.org/be_s0507.htm

Best of luck