"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Well, what about Jesus doing and saying things that only God can do like forgive sins? Only God is cable of that. Jesus did that. He said different things to individuals like "Your sins are forgiven" and your sins are forgiven you go and sin no more" I do not condemn you. God said in the Old Testament "I am God there is no other and I will not share my glory with another" Jesus perform acts that only God can do bear witness that He is the son of God and God didn't consider Him to be another. Only God can forgive sin no prove ever claimed such authority. Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Those who pierced Him will be ashamed. He that has the Son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him!

if you follow bible, he did. but in reality he didn't. because he was just a messenger of Allah, sent with Injeel and with miracles to correct people who altered the Torah.He did miracles with permission of Allah, as other Prophets did (ie. Moses splitted the sea) but if you want to believe that he forgived sins, and that he is son of God, you are free to do that. Allah swt gave choice to each one of us.

Surah Kafiroon 109:6
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

..... Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God.

u forgot to mention holy Spirit in ur Shahada ......& remember , sin against holy Spirit won't be forgiven regarding ur holy book. So , do include him.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

if you follow bible, he did. but in reality he didn't. because he was just a messenger of Allah, sent with Injeel and with miracles to correct people who altered the Torah.He did miracles with permission of Allah, as other Prophets did (ie. Moses splitted the sea) but if you want to believe that he forgived sins, and that he is son of God, you are free to do that. Allah swt gave choice to each one of us.

Surah Kafiroon 109:6
To you be your Way, and to me mine.

Jer33 Behold, In those days saith the Lord I will cause a Branch of righteous to sit on Davids throne (JESUS) and He shall execute justice and His name wherewith HE will be called is the Lord our righteosness. That is the name above all names. He is my righteousness. That is why I boast. I am rich because Jesus became poor for me. I will fear not what man can do or say to me. This is not my way - it is His!

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Jer33 Behold, In those days saith the Lord I will cause a Branch of righteous to sit on Davids throne (JESUS) and He shall execute justice and His name wherewith HE will be called is the Lord our righteosness. That is the name above all names. He is my righteousness. That is why I boast. I am rich because Jesus became poor for me. I will fear not what man can do or say to me. This is not my way - it is His!

good, we understand each other.
now you go your way, I go my way ;D

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Since the Christian Bible is made up of numerous books, 66 if I'm not mistaken, there wasn't one name for all of them. They all have their own names. So the Greek word "Biblos" was used to name the entirety of these books when they came together in one. It wouldn't make any sense for the word "Bible" to appear in the Bible.

Actually, the Bible as decided upon (I tkink) around 390 A.D. at the Council of Hippo, and still exists in the Catholic Bible, has an additional 7 OT books as compared to the Protestant Bible.

The point, I think, is that Quran mentions itself by name in the Quran.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Actually, the Bible as decided upon (I tkink) around 390 A.D. at the Council of Hippo, and still exists in the Catholic Bible, has an additional 7 OT books as compared to the Protestant Bible.

The point, I think, is that Quran mentions itself by name in the Quran.

I think the Book of Mormon mentions itself in itself too. Therefore...what? That makes it authentic or more believable or...what?

Actually, that means NOTHING!!!!!!!

 

[syilla]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

http://www.islamictube.net/view_video.php?viewkey=1889828421

some explaination

May Allah guide us.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

well we take in consideration everything.

and to be short, I will just post the Surah Al-Ikhlas which talks about Allah swt.

112:1-4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Wonderful. You have answered well the question, "Who is Allah to Muslims?" Unfortunately that is not the topic of this thread.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Wonderful. You have answered well the question, "Who is Allah to Muslims?" Unfortunately that is not the topic of this thread.

Since the Surah talks about Allah I wanted to post it just te clarify the point that you made on:

The point is that this is exactly what Christians believe too. The point of contention is not:

How gods there are? one and only one
Does God have any partners, rivals or associates? no​

The point of contention is: Who is God?

And what Christians say --that Muslims will never accept and that Christians must confess-- is that Allah was himself incarnate in Jesus. Jesus and Allah are one and the very same, there is no distinction between them. Which is why for the Qur'an to say that Allah says that Jesus is just a prophet and nothing more proves to Christians that the Qur'an couldn't really be from Allah, but an imposter. For Christians, it is the Qur'an that speaks against itself by its very claims (or shall I say counter-claims) with regard to Jesus Christ, the one true God who came down from heaven and tabernacled among his creation in the flesh as they are in the flesh, and then offered his own life to pay the punishment for their sins so that he might reconcile them to himself. This is the word of God that has been hand down to us from those who met Jesus personally and any book that denies these truths from those who met Jesus face-to-face (including Paul) is to be doubted.

I have tried many times to say who the Trinity is to Christians -- it is a label used to describe our mutlifaceted experience of the manifestation of the one God. But I keep failing at doing it in a way that Muslims seem to be capable of understanding what we are saying.

And, even though the question only asks us to articulate who the Trinity is for us, and does not ask us to explain why we believe it to be true, it just asks us to state what it is we believe with regard to the Trinity, it seems some Muslims want to come back and argue that Christians believe in something other than what we say we believe in. So, let me try to say who the Trinity is the Muslims.

I believe that to the Muslim mind the Trinity is blasphemous.

and there is no need for such a thread, bc muslims already know who is Allah, and his attributes.

 

[tears4husain]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

in reply to the statement by Alapiana1. I understand your sincerity and concern, but Islam is foreign to most christians so they really dont understand us muslims, and alot of muslims come from christianity so we understand both sides. Alot of people hold bias thoughts towards something that contradicts or goes against what they believe. Eventhough we both come from the teachings of Abrahim(a.s.) we still could never pray together unless some one compromises their belief. They pray in name of their lord Jesus Christ,we pray in the name of the one God.Plus stereostypes bring on more biasness and hatred. There are alot of elements that brings us together and also alot of elements that rips us apart from each other. Morally muslims are monotheist, christians are not. The bible lead a vass majority of muslims to Islam,So we believe in the bible, but they say we dont accept it. Thats part of usol-e-deen(pillars of faith). I'm not trying to point a finger at any one but alot of the confusion comes from those who dont understand the opposite. Some times the aggressors dont understand their selves nor where they come from. So maybe if we take out more time to learn who we are and where we come from as believers in GOD we won't have these problems, because we all will have the truth except those whose eyes God will not unveil.

 

[NoName55]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

In other words one is allowed to assume any position/anthing and everything as long as it helps put them nasty mozlems in their place. All is fair in love and war and all that jazz:thumbs_up

okey dokey carry on!

 

[Trumble]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

In other words one is allowed to assume any position/anthing and everything as long as it helps put them nasty mozlems in their place. All is fair in love and war and all that jazz:thumbs_up

okey dokey carry on!

In other words you really need to go back and read the previous posts again. The only assumption that I made, for the sake of argument, is one that both muslims and Christians would agree with. I'm puzzled as to why you would object to that. Without making that assumption the whole question being discussed is completely meaningless.

If, for some reason, you believe that not being either a muslim or a Christian somehow disqualifies me from commenting on a 'muslim v Christian' issue, your are quite entitled to say so. I disagree and will, indeed, "carry on", with no intention of putting anybody "in their place". The purpose of 'comparative religion', IMHO, is rather more than paraphrasing "my religion is great but yours sucks" ad infinitum. Rather more than trying to show somebody else's religion is 'wrong' and yours is 'right', with no intention whatsoever of even trying to understand the other point of view. If that's your thing, though.. "carry on"!

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A man cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. There is no comfort zone being a Christian. It is a call to die to your own fleshly desires and live holy and righteously before God. I cannot do this. With man it is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.
peace

A comfort zone is not necessarily physically comfortable, it is what a person feels they understand.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Not hell and not wrath. That is what Christians are saved from. But the "fear of the Lord" for the Christian is more of a reverence and holy respect, as a child has respect for his parents. Why? Because if he doesn't and if he disobeys, he can expect a corrective spanking. In scripture, the "spanking" is called "chastening" or "chastisement" as seen from the following passage:
...

That is a huge difference that I see between Christianity and Islam---the relationship between the believers and their God. For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

By contrast, Muslim believers are not permitted to consider Allah as their heavenly Father in any sense. He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

And then there is the element of LOVE. The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). But one Quran that I have has an index that goes from page 425 to page 452---27 pages---without a single listing for "love." I had to go online to do a search for "love" in the Quran. And when I did, I did find over 80 verses that include the word "love." But what I also found is that no where does the Quran say that God loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (like 2 Pet. 3:9). In fact, the picture I got was that Allah loves doers of good deeds but doesn't love doers of bad deeds. Now, that seems normal and good, because God hates sin. But from a biblical viewpoint, He loves the sinner but hates the sin. And then He DID something to provide for the sinner's forgiveness of sin by sending Jesus to die for it. Not so with the Quran.

So those are two things that I find very unattractive in Islam. No sense of a heavenly Father and no sense that as such He loves me as His child. Maybe you can do without either, but not me. I'm thankful I don't have to.

Peace

This was a well put response.

Yes, a difference between Islam and Christianity is the certainty of salvation. A Muslim has a combination of hope in the promises of Allah for paradise, but he also has the fear of Allah's wrath because of the uncertainty of how our deeds and intentions will stand in the final analysis. Certainly, one of the biggest concerns we Muslims have is commiting the small shirk by doing good deeds for show or the praise and approval of others rather than Allah. I can't judge my own faith or deeds or intentions, because Allah knows them better than I know myself.

I would have to agree somewhat with the lack of a "Father" type relationship with Allah. Personally, I have tremendous love for Allah that he chose me out of so many millions of Americans to show me the Truth of Islam with the hope for forgiveness and the promise of Paradise. It truly humbles me and brings tears to my eyes that with all of my sins and shortcomings that Allah had tremendous mercy on me to lead me to His Light. To me Allah is beyond my understanding and I don't impose human emotions on Him. I strive to obey Him as shown by Prophet Muhammad as my role model.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Have you ever heard of the Mercy of Allah. Well, it's a wonderful thing......

Have you ever heard of the wrath and justice of God? It is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God with no covering for your sin. You are on your own bc U choose so. The soul that is not covered by the blood of the Lamb of God is out of reach from GOD'S mercy because it is God's standard.

Yes, I have hope in the Mercy of Allah and fear of the Wrath of Allah. Islamic faith is a balance between the two. Rather than the covering of my sin by the blood of the Lamb of God, I rely upon the Mercy of Allah and I believe that He is willing and able to forgive them as long as I associate no one or thing with Him in worship.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

you should be ashamed that you are using the oxygen to fill your lungs with air, and you still say that we don't know about his mercy?? there unaccountable things which Allah gave to you as mercy and u still doubt on his mercy????. if Allah wouldn't have mercy, you wouldn't exist even for a second, due to the kufr that you commit.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

philosofies, you need to live more in reality, cuz u'r living in dreams dude. wake up.

And then there is the element of LOVE. The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). But one Quran that I have has an index that goes from page 425 to page 452---27 pages---without a single listing for "love." I had to go online to do a search for "love" in the Quran. And when I did, I did find over 80 verses that include the word "love." But what I also found is that no where does the Quran say that God loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (like 2 Pet. 3:9). In fact, the picture I got was that Allah loves doers of good deeds but doesn't love doers of bad deeds. Now, that seems normal and good, because God hates sin. But from a biblical viewpoint, He loves the sinner but hates the sin. And then He DID something to provide for the sinner's forgiveness of sin by sending Jesus to die for it. Not so with the Quran.

u expect Allah to love you? after the kufr that you commit every single second of your life??? you should appriciate that at least he is leaving you to live in peace. but wallahi we are muslims and witness on day of judgment, for the distortion that you are doing to God, and misjuding his mercy and his justice. and judging what he should do. maybe if you start worship Allah without partners, Allah will love you. I get frustrated when I see people joining partnership to Allah subhanau we teala, let alone Allah Himself who is the Lord of the World, and created u and me and everything, and u , a creature that if you go 20 kilometers outside earth, u can't be seen, starts being arrogant to God, and assign him partners (saying he has begotten a child) . but as hadith states:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 501: Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "When Allah created the Creation, He wrote in His Book--and He wrote (that) about Himself, and it is placed with Him on the Throne--'Verily My Mercy overcomes My Anger.'"

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

With this I say good night. I have eastern time. My experience and knowldge of the Scriptures tells me. That if there is a lack of comfort due to a lack of peace in a decision you or anyone makes concerning something special, it is good to do nothing than to operate out of what you don't have the faith for. You see, it is the devil that pushes you into a direction or decisions, but the Lord leads his sheep gently. I am one of his sheep and I am very comfortable and safe, and that is a very good thing when you have eternity in mind.
peace

Very true.
Allah(swt) is a gentle but firm guide. He has given us the freedom to choose as we desire and He has shown us the path our actions will lead us too. He has given us very specific guidelines as to how to follow the path that will lead us to eternal happiness and He has told us of the consequences if we choose to stray from that path on a sight seeing excursion.

He has given us this life as a trial in order to prepare us for eternity. some of us will fail at the trial and face the reality of being a drop out.

It is my desire to serve Allah(swt) and to be one of his slaves. Not because I am worthy of or can earn Heaven but simply because I am commanded to worship and serve Him. I need no reason to serve Allah(swt) other than the knowledge that I know He wants me to worship Him and to serve Him. Serving Him joyfully is the only reward I need. Yet, in spite of that Allah(swt) has promised that He will be Just and Merciful on judgment day. I am joyful with leaving my future up to the will of Allah(swt) No matter what becomes of me I know it will be what Allah(swt) knows to be best. Inshallah (May God's(swt) will be done)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

philosofies, you need to live more in reality, cuz u'r living in dreams dude. wake up.

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

In fact it is so important to us, that I often wonder if my Muslim friends who report that they were raised Christian, somehow missed this key element in their spiritual nurturance and were only exposed to the form of Christianity without its substance. For absent this experience of coming to know (as in the sense of having intimacy) God in and through Christ on the personal level, Christianity would be a rather hollow and empty religiion. But with it, it is so life changing and satisfying, I have a hard time imagining that anyone who has ever fully experienced it would walk away from it.

If Phil is like me, hearing your strongest warnings remind us of why I am Christain. I know that I cannot stand before God on my own. But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose. When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me. I have put is trust in him not for this life only, but for the world to come as well. Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

In fact it is so important to us, that I often wonder if my Muslim friends who report that they were raised Christian, somehow missed this key element in their spiritual nurturance and were only exposed to the form of Christianity without its substance. For absent this experience of coming to know (as in the sense of having intimacy) God in and through Christ on the personal level, Christianity would be a rather hollow and empty religiion. But with it, it is so life changing and satisfying, I have a hard time imagining that anyone who has ever fully experienced it would walk away from it.

If Phil is like me, hearing your strongest warnings remind us of why I am Christain. I know that I cannot stand before God on my own. But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose. When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me. I have put is trust in him not for this life only, but for the world to come as well. Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

Peace Gene,

It is very difficult for a Christian to understand how and why a Christian would revert to Islam. What would it take for a Christian to give up the joy of a Personal Relationship with Jesus(as) and the guaranteed assurance of salvation? Why would a Christian willingly throw all of this away and jump into something with no assurance about anything, have to learn a new language and give up what they believe to be all chances of redemption?

It would take some very strong feelings and a very deep reassurance that nothing is lost and all is gained to make that leap. I doubt if many "weak" Christians would take that leap. A Christian that is weak in his faith as a Christian would probably be weak in faith even after reverting to Islam. A revert does not see his reversion as giving up Christianity a revert sees it as doing what Jesus(as) really told us to do and that is to worship the One True God(as) and to serve only Him. Although I only spent about 25 years as a member of a Christian denomination, I did believe Christianity held the truth and my life was a search to find the message Jesus(as) wanted people to learn. At no time did I ever loose love of Jesus(as) or the feeling of his word. Although I did learn to doubt the truth of the Churches that professed Christianity.

You will hear many reverts say that it is the love of Jesus(as) that first led them to Islam and it is only as a Muslim they became the Christian, Christ(as) wanted them to become. A Christian should love God(swt) above all things and even above the beautiful messenger that showed them the word of God(swt). Christ(as) was the key to heaven in that he brought the truth that unlocked the door. That truth was the Injil. Sadly people threw the truth away and began worshiping the key.

It is by loving Jesus and searching for what he truly said that a Christian will find Islam. As a Christian I learned to love Isa(as) as a Muslim I got to know him and learn what his message really was. Isa(as) gave me a beautiful message as to the mercy of Allah(swt) it was from the words of Isa(as) that I first heard of the justice and mercy of Allah(swt) and it is as a Muslim I learned to place all of my trust in Allah(swt). I have no fear of the future because I know fully that Allah(swt) will grant me all of the mercy imaginable, I do know that in the event I find myself in Hellfire it is the result of my own choices and yet I see even that as a joyous occasion as I know that it is the will of God(swt). My only desire is to do the will of Allah(swt) there is no need for anything else and even the greatest pleasure possible would be but a mere speck in comparision of knowing the will of Allah(swt) is being done.

I have faith and full knowledge that Allah(swt) is capable of all things and that his will, will be done. I do have fear of the wrath of Allah(swt) but I do know that his wrath is just and metered out for the best of all. Whatever happens to me is of no concern as I know it will be the Best Allah(swt) desires and I do trust in his wisdom and judgment.

To me it is no longer a question of why a Christian would revert to Islam it is a question of "How can a person truly love and follow Jesus(as) and not revert to Islam?"

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What phil is saying is what makes Christianity different from either Judaism or Islam. The Christian faith is not about duty but relationship. That's why the questions from our Muslim brothers about what langauge did Jesus speak, do we have his exact words, the corruption through mistakes in copying of the Bible, while understandably essential to you (and even somewhat important to us), are not key to our faith. For one can have all of this, believe it and practice it even and still not be a Christian if not living in a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ. And without that life is (in our experience at least) meaningless in comparison to what it is to have the relationship we have with God because of our relationship with Christ.

so wether bible is corrupted or u have no information about Jesus what he spoke or ...... is not a key point of your faith??? so are you telling me that you have blind faith??

I know that I cannot stand before God on my own.

of course you can't, cuz you live all your life how ever u want cuz u know that Jesus pays for it all. that's why you're not prepared and you have not prepared anything.

But I know also that I have put my trust in one in whom I can depend, Jesus Christ the Righteous One who has come to redeem and save me for this exact purpose.

save you?? He will be worried about himself, not you. but that's how Shaitan tries to misguide people through 'free stuff' . Bc even in our life, people tend to get things which are free. like they go gambling, why? bc they think they will earn something without giving anything. and they lose everything. You achieve something only with working. this is the main, basic principal of our life, animal's life etc.

When I face the judgment you speak of, Christ will be there with me.

yes, I will be there also, Jesus is gonna be there also, Wodroow is gonna be there also, but the thing is that I will not even know or care about you or wodrow, or anyone, cuz I'm gonna be worried about myself, you will be worried for yourslef, Jesus will be worried about himself, Wodroow will be worried about him self, and every single creature on this earth.

Praise be to God who gives us the victory through Jesus Christ, my Lord. AMEN.

plain shirk.