"Views on Atonement for Sin."

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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?


we have repeatedly challenged any christian to come forward and tell us straightforwardly how was the bible canon compiled?

Yes. And I (and others) have come and straightforwardly given that answer on more than one occassion. So, what is your point? I don't see one.

All I am learning from this part of the discussion is that you can ask lots of questions, but are not able to recognize answers, for you continually repeat the same questions over and over again.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Hi Everyone:

Yow! This is some hot stuff. Let me make a suggestion.

1. Mohammed came into contact with corrupt persons who called themselves Christians and Jews.

2. Such persons taught utter rubbish thus incurring Mohammed’s wrath for distorting the Scriptures (e.g. 3:78). This rubbish certainly included misconceptions about Jesus.

3. The relationship between Jesus and God has been the subject of intense study over the past 2,000 years. However, both Christians and Muslims believe that God is one and that that Jesus is the Messiah.

If such a belief is sufficient for us, then why not simply leave it there? Why exceed this minimum during our conversation knowing that Muslims will feel duty-bound to respond with the same indignation as Mohammed?

Regards,
Grenville
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

yes, of course, bc these gospels are human-made books, bc if it would have been the word of God, than there would be just one name and that name would be mentioned in the book, but since everybody put his head on the "inspiration from God", people who didn't even met Jesus, and they write many books, of course the word Bible does not appear on the Bible :)


NO. I disagree. We see that God directed more than one person to write, by his inspiritation, more than one book. Each book was written for its own particular reason. The Church would in time collect all of these writing together and keep them in one place. Though they had many different human scribes and spoke to many different sitatuations over a large number of years, they all had one thing in common, they were the word of God for the people of God. And that is why we collected them together into one place, and declared them to be the standard of faith and practice (i.e. the canon). So, the creation of the writing was a work of God through human agents. The collation of the Bible was a work of God's people though the Holy Spirit.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You believe blindly enough yourself; there is nothing remotely resembling "proof" that there even was/is a Gibreel let alone that Mohammed had contact with him. You merely have faith in both.

read the previous posts where I posted the example with the sahabi. i think it's on 6th page.

Nobody needs "defending". I merely pointed out that if you accept the assumption that the Bible was 'inspired' by God, as Christians do, then such a defence is not necessary. If you do not accept that assumption, then the whole point is irrelevant as the words transmitted would have just as little to do with God whether 'chains' existed or not.
yes but if there were inspiried that would not say "Jesus in such and such place did this", but they would say "Jesus is saying this..", and it depends what type of inspiration, if it a ordinary inspiration as we call in our daily life, then they had to have knowledge about Jesus to write something, but if they had true inspiration it means that they don't need any knowledge, but they just write whatever comes on their mind. So you either choose this one, or the other.

I'm puzzled as to why you keep asking for something you know full well doesn't exist. And, if it did, would you believe any differently? Even if you could trace a direct line between, say, somebody standing next to Jesus when he gave the Sermon on the Mount and Paul what is to to say that the transmission was accurate or that Paul didn't "make up stuff" in the way muslims frequently claim he did? If, of course, God was guiding the whole process along, as Christians believe, that wouldn't have happened, so again from their perspective there is no problem.
yes, bc they dont have one, they dont even have enough information on the writers, so I have no reason whatsoever to accept Bible as accurate concerning what jesus really said. So the possibility is very veyr high that it got corrupted. and I dont understand how Christians would dedicate themselves and give up paradise for a book like Bible? i don't want to offend anyone, but there is no proof whatsoever to show the authenticity of Bible, no information at all , except those lines that you have between two covers.

may Allah swt guide us. ameen
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You blindly accept somebody's work every time you pick up your Qur'an. You blindly accept that Muhammad was telling you the truth. You blindly accept that:
1) he got the message from anothe source and not his own creation. You have convinced yourself that Muhammad was not intelligent enough man to have composed the recitations over time. I have a higher degree of respect for Muhammad's intelligence than that.
2) the source was indeed the angel Gabriel and not some other source. You believe this because that is who Muhammad told you told him, and you believe Muhammad to be telling the truth. In part because if he didn't get it from Gabriel, then he was either lying (you can't believe that of Muhammad's character), fooled (you won't believe that of Muhammad's person), or crazy (a crazy man doesn't do the things that Muhammad did).
3) Gabriel got his message from God. The alternative to this option is too scary to even conceive for the Muslim, yet this alternative option is exactly what you claim has happened with regard to the Bible. If it could happen to our holy book, why could it not have happened to yours?

1) he got the message from anothe source and not his own creation. You have convinced yourself that Muhammad was not intelligent enough man to have composed the recitations over time. I have a higher degree of respect for Muhammad's intelligence than that.
who said about Muhammed's intelligence??
being illiterate and not intelligent are different things. I assume you know the difference. And being illiterate is a high owner to the prophet Muhammed, and alhamdulilah that he was an illiterate, bc from the work of Qur'an, everybody would say he was literate so he gained knowledge by reading other books. So you can't claim that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an himself, where we know Qur'an contains information in every field.

2) the source was indeed the angel Gabriel and not some other source. You believe this because that is who Muhammad told you told him, and you believe Muhammad to be telling the truth. In part because if he didn't get it from Gabriel, then he was either lying (you can't believe that of Muhammad's character), fooled (you won't believe that of Muhammad's person), or crazy (a crazy man doesn't do the things that Muhammad did).

your statements are typical to the people at that time when there were accusing Muhammed saws as being mad. but people in reality new he was speaking the truth, cuz he was known as Al-amin, read the conversation on the hadith i posted above what Abu Sufyan said about Muhammed saws.
but Allah swt tells us in the Qur'an:

At-Takwir (The overthrowing) :

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
1. When the sun (with its spacious light) is folded up;
2. When the stars fall, losing their luster;
3. When the mountains vanish (like a mirage);
4. When the she-camels, ten months with young, are left untended;
5. When the wild beasts are herded together (in human habitations);
6. When the oceans boil over with a swell;
7. When the souls are sorted out, (being joined, like with like);
8. When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned -
9. For what crime she was killed;
10. When the Scrolls are laid open;
11. When the sky is unveiled;
12. When the Blazing Fire is kindled to fierce heat;
13. And when the Garden is brought near;-
14. (Then) shall each soul know what it has put forward.
15. So verily I call to witness the Planets - that recede,
16. Go straight, or hide;
17. And the Night as it dissipates;
18. And the Dawn as it breathes away the darkness;-
19. Verily this is the word of a most honorable Messenger,
20. Endued with Power, held in honor by the Lord of the Throne,
21. With authority there, (and) faithful to his trust.
22. And (O people!) your companion is not one possessed;
23. And without doubt he saw him (Gabriel) in the clear horizon.
24. Neither doth he withhold grudgingly a knowledge of the Unseen.
25. Nor is it the word of a satan accursed.
26. When whither go ye?
27. Verily this is no less than a Message to (all) the Worlds:
28. (With profit) to whoever among you wills to go straight:
29. But ye shall not will except as Allah wills,- the Cherisher of the Worlds.



Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.


there are plenty hadiths, but i just quoted one.

3) Gabriel got his message from God. The alternative to this option is too scary to even conceive for the Muslim, yet this alternative option is exactly what you claim has happened with regard to the Bible. If it could happen to our holy book, why could it not have happened to yours?

Jesus a.s came with the book , Injeel, but that's not the one you have in your house. But the bible you have , is not something as Qur'an that has been written directly on the paper and memorized at the same time, but yours is rather some writings, which some we don't know if they belong to the author, no proof, or we don't know the late writers where did they got the knowledge, but none of theme recieved the verses of Bible from God, directly. Also this is one point that tells us that Bible is corrupted, bc we don't want to go on logic , or mathematical or prophecy analysis. For information how Qur'an was revealed, preserved and compiled read the book:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
and also 1/3 of the books is about OT NT .

peace :)
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Which makes sense if the Qur'an is truly a work of God and the Bible is false. But not if it is the other way around.

What you are therefore also doing is asking us to throw away our Bibles, because they do teach those "truths" that we believe which you declare to be false beliefs. We merely want to show you that what we believe is taught, not just by "other" sources, but within the very pages of the Bible itself.

no i'm not saying to throw your bibles, cuz i have a bible with me here, but I'm trying to tell you that the bible is out-of-date version, so you need to update yourself with the Qur'an.

Allah swt is high and is not in need of anything. So I'm trying to tell you not to join in partnership with Allah swt.


this is a part of article I am translating and soon I will publish the whole article on the forum. put here's a part of it:

Tawheed = Oneness of Allah , the core belief, which we don't joing partnership to Allah swt.

4. Tawheed is the main reason for the man to enter Jannah (Paradise)


It is transmitted from Ubaidah Ibn Samit (r.a) that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Who testifies that there is no diety of worship except Allah, Who is without rival or partner, and that Muhammed is His Messenger, and that paradise and hellfire are true, Allah swt will put him in Jannah (Paradise)." [Bukhari]

Transmitted from Utban that the Messenger of Allah saws said: "Allah swt forbided the hellfire to have a person who said the word "La ilahe ilall-llah" with sincerity."
[Bukhari]

In this context, it is worthy to mention the word of Ibn Taymyah to comment and understand the above hadiths:

"These hadiths is for those people that said this word and died with this word, work with this word, say it with sincerty, convinced without having any doubts or dilemma and with loyalty"

Hasan al Basri has been asked that there are some people that say that whoever pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" will enter Jannah? He answered: "He who pronounces the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" , practices the conditions and become subject of the orders of this word will enter Jannah."

When Vahb Ibn Munabih answered the question: "Is the word "La ilahe il-lall-llah" the key of the Jannah"? He said every key has its pins,so if it comes with the key and its pins, the door will be opened, otherwise if it comes with key without its pins, it will not be opened".


 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

who said about Muhammed's intelligence??
being illiterate and not intelligent are different things. I assume you know the difference. And being illiterate is a high owner to the prophet Muhammed, and alhamdulilah that he was an illiterate, bc from the work of Qur'an, everybody would say he was literate so he gained knowledge by reading other books. So you can't claim that Muhammed wrote the Qur'an himself, where we know Qur'an contains information in every field.
Illiterate people are able to function even in our society today. For Muhammad to be illiterate doesn't mean that he could not have been well-versed (even if not well-read) in much other literature. Indeed, it appears that he was knowledgable about much of the world. Being illiterate would not have prevented him from being a human source of the Qur'an if that had been his desire.




your statements are typical to the people at that time when there were accusing Muhammed saws as being mad. but people in reality new he was speaking the truth, cuz he was known as Al-amin, read the conversation on the hadith i posted above what Abu Sufyan said about Muhammed saws.
Check my post again. I specifically said that Muhammad was not crazy.




Jesus a.s came with the book , Injeel, but that's not the one you have in your house. But the bible you have , is not something as Qur'an that has been written directly on the paper and memorized at the same time, but yours is rather some writings, which some we don't know if they belong to the author, no proof, or we don't know the late writers where did they got the knowledge, but none of theme recieved the verses of Bible from God, directly. Also this is one point that tells us that Bible is corrupted, bc we don't want to go on logic , or mathematical or prophecy analysis. For information how Qur'an was revealed, preserved and compiled read the book:
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
and also 1/3 of the books is about OT NT .

peace :)

And so we not only see that there is blind belief in the Qur'an. But blind acceptance of disbelief in the integrity of the Bible.



vpb, I'm not trying to change your view on what you accept of don't accept. I'm just pointing out that it begins from a faith persepctive of what is and is not trustworthy.

You accpet the Qur'an as worthy of placing once faith and trust in it. You do not accept the Bible that way. But the reason you accept them is because you have believed the Qur'an's testimony regarding itself and the Bible. So, you believe because you believe. And then once you believe because you believe, then you can know your beliefs to be true because you have the testimony that they are true, based on the book that you believe in.

I'm not claiming that Christians don't ultimately do the same thing with the Bible.

And I'm also saying that when one starts with a belief that we become firmly convicted of being true, your arguments from logic based in a contradictory belief system aren't going any more effective in convincing or even showing a Christian anything than a Christian's arguments in showing a Muslim who is solid in his/her faith anything.


I have posted several times about Polycarp and a little less about Ignatius of Antioch (be sure to distinguish him from Ignatius of Loyola) on these forums if you want to do a search for them. Or you could read about them for yourself by looking them up in these sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp
The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia
Development of the New Testament Canon
Theopedia: An Encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity


Many of their writings are available here:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ignatius.html and http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/polycarp.html#


That should at least get you a start. If you don't find what you are looking for in those articles, let me know. I have more reference books on my shelves than on-line articles that I can point you to, though that means a lot more typing on my part. Still, I'm willing to do that if there is something in particular you are looking for.

You might want to add Iraneus to the list of those you are reading up on, as he was a student of Polycarp and is another source for citing that John wrote the Gospel of John. And you might enjoy some of these articles on the overall reliabity of the New Testament: http://www.theopedia.com/Historicity_of_the_New_Testament.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

no i'm not saying to throw your bibles, cuz i have a bible with me here, but I'm trying to tell you that the bible is out-of-date version, so you need to update yourself with the Qur'an.

[/COLOR]


And what do we do when the Bible and the Qur'an disagree? Don't you want us to disregard the teachings found in the Bible and to accept that of the Qur'an? To me that has the same effect as throwing out the Bible. Indeed, while you have a Bible, my daughter (who is a Muslim from Turkey) was taught not to waste her time reading the Bible as it was corrupted and untrustworthy.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Illiterate people are able to function even in our society today. For Muhammad to be illiterate doesn't mean that he could not have been well-versed (even if not well-read) in much other literature. Indeed, it appears that he was knowledgable about much of the world. Being illiterate would not have prevented him from being a human source of the Qur'an if that had been his desire.

there are lot of things, which are in the Qur'an, which at that time people didn't know about. you know what i;m talking about.

And so we not only see that there is blind belief in the Qur'an. But blind acceptance of disbelief in the integrity of the Bible.
Blind belief? Islam is based on knowledge, and we don't believe things which we don't understand, things which can't be explained, everything's clear in Islam. I think you haven;t understood yet the meaning of the word "blind faith".

vpb, I'm not trying to change your view on what you accept of don't accept. .
you can defenitily try to teach trinity and change the people's view in Africa, but not in here. Truth is already clear from error/false. and I would never drop the truth. But if Allah swt wants to misguide me than nobody can stop Him. may Allah guide us on the right path. Ameen.

Surah Al-Baqara 2:256
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

I'm just pointing out that it begins from a faith persepctive of what is and is not trustworthy

yes , nobody's saying faith is not part of it, but we can go and find someone who loves Hitler, and he has faith on the book Mein Kampf, but it does not mean he is right.

You accpet the Qur'an as worthy of placing once faith and trust in it. You do not accept the Bible that way. But the reason you accept them is because you have believed the Qur'an's testimony regarding itself and the Bible. So, you believe because you believe. And then once you believe because you believe, then you can know your beliefs to be true because you have the testimony that they are true, based on the book that you believe in.

I'm not claiming that Christians don't ultimately do the same thing with the Bible.

I was raised in a "muslim family" , where I had no contact with Qur'an whatsoever. very secular family. I've had the chance to choose between christianity and islam so I didn't just say "I want to believe Islam is the best way". No, but I looked through, and I've lived with a baptist pastor for some time, and I've explored christianity, but when you open your heart and really compare both, there is no doubt. and Islam does not tell people just to believe and that's it, but Allah swt tells us, to study, and reflect. So it's not based just "oh my parents believe, i believe the same , or I think this is pleasing me more and that's it". Islam is like the food, you can't no how it tastes till you taste it.

And I'm also saying that when one starts with a belief that we become firmly convicted of being true, your arguments from logic based in a contradictory belief system aren't going any more effective in convincing or even showing a Christian anything than a Christian's arguments in showing a Muslim who is solid in his/her faith anything.

I'm not here to convince, bc when you say convince it means that you achieve to make the person for example accept Islam. but we can't convience people, we can't guide them, we can only deliver the message, and wether you accept it or not, I dont care, that's not mu duty. So at the end of the day, I conveyed the message, that's what I worry about, bc hiding what you know is a great sin in Islam, and I don't want to get that sin inshaAllah.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

And what do we do when the Bible and the Qur'an disagree? Don't you want us to disregard the teachings found in the Bible and to accept that of the Qur'an? To me that has the same effect as throwing out the Bible. Indeed, while you have a Bible, my daughter (who is a Muslim from Turkey) was taught not to waste her time reading the Bible as it was corrupted and untrustworthy.

I just don't mind what she said, what she was taught, or whether u throw bible or not. My duty was to convey the message to you. and inshaAllah all those who came on this thread will be witnesses on day of judgement. I just want to get away from the sin of not conveying the message.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I was raised in a "muslim family" , where I had no contact with Qur'an whatsoever. very secular family. I've had the chance to choose between christianity and islam so I didn't just say "I want to believe Islam is the best way". No, but I looked through, and I've lived with a baptist pastor for some time, and I've explored christianity, but when you open your heart and really compare both, there is no doubt. and Islam does not tell people just to believe and that's it, but Allah swt tells us, to study, and reflect. So it's not based just "oh my parents believe, i believe the same , or I think this is pleasing me more and that's it". Islam is like the food, you can't no how it tastes till you taste it.

And I having basically the parallel experience in my own life, ended up feeling the same way with regard to my faith that you do with regard to yours. (Though I will give you credit for exploring Christianity earlier in your life than I did Islam, which I knew next to nothing about until I was an adult.)


I'm not here to convince, bc when you say convince it means that you achieve to make the person for example accept Islam. but we can't convience people, we can't guide them, we can only deliver the message, and wether you accept it or not, I dont care, that's not mu duty. So at the end of the day, I conveyed the message, that's what I worry about, bc hiding what you know is a great sin in Islam, and I don't want to get that sin inshaAllah.
Well, rest assured, at least with me, that is not a sin you should be found guilty of. May Allah continue to guide you into all truth because I do care what happens to you.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

May Allah continue to guide you into all truth.
oohh what a sweet statement :ace:
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

That [my list of 9 points of agreement] pretty accurately summarizes my point of view. Point #5 should be expanded slightly.

5. Muslims are hoping in their belief in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

In addition to the above expansion of no. 5, another post, by vpb, suggested the same one be expanded thusly:

5. Muslims have to do good deeds as much as possible, but they also depend on Allah's mercy for the forgiveness of sins and in getting mercy in general too, so they can enter Heaven, and they don't know wether they go to Heaven or not, till the trial on the day of judgment.

So we can consider those two expansions of no. 5 in context, let me restate the entire 9 points of agreement here:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. According to the Muslim view, Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

So, MustafaMc has added "belief in One God and striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions)," and vpb has added, doing "good deeds as much as possible."

So, are all the Muslims in agreement that we could rewrite no. 5 to read:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day. ?

Peace
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

yep i think that's a good conclusion. unless anyone has something to say.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I agree it is a very good conclusion and I do favor #5 to be rewritten like that. From a factual view it is fair and accurate. I know there will different connotations as to what is meant by it, but there will that, no matter what is written.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

well we take in consideration everything.

and to be short, I will just post the Surah Al-Ikhlas which talks about Allah swt.

112:1-4

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

ok i'm posting the commenting of that surah, just in case you want to know more on detail.






The Reason for the Revelation of this Surah and its Virtues
Imam Ahmad recorded from Ubayy bin Ka`b that the idolators said to the Prophet , "O Muhammad! Tell us the lineage of your Lord.'' So Allah revealed
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One. Allah He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is non comparable to Him.'') Similar was recorded by At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir and they added in their narration that he said,
[الصَّمَدُ]
"(As-Samad) is One Who does not give birth, nor was He born, because there is nothing that is born except that it will die, and there is nothing that dies except that it leaves behind inheritance, and indeed Allah does not die and He does not leave behind any inheritance.
[وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(And there is none comparable to Him.) This means that there is none similar to Him, none equal to Him and there is nothing at all like Him.'' Ibn Abi Hatim also recorded it and At-Tirmidhi mentioned it as a Mursal narration. Then At-Tirmidhi said, "And this is the most correct.''



A Hadith on its Virtues
Al-Bukhari reported from `Amrah bint `Abdur-Rahman, who used to stay in the apartment of `A'ishah, the wife of the Prophet , that `A'ishah said, "The Prophet sent a man as the commander of a war expedition and he used to lead his companions in prayer with recitation (of the Qur'an). And he would complete his recitation with the recitation of `Say: He is Allah, One.' So when they returned they mentioned that to the Prophet and he said,
«سَلُوهُ لِأَيِّ شَيْءٍ يَصْنَعُ ذَلِكَ؟»
(Ask him why does he do that.) So they asked him and he said, `Because it is the description of Ar-Rahman and I love to recite it. So the Prophet said,
«أَخْبِرُوهُ أَنَّ اللهَ تَعَالَى يُحِبُّه»
(Inform him that Allah the Most High loves him.)'' This is how Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith in his Book of Tawhid. Muslim and An-Nasa'i also recorded it. In his Book of Salah, Al-Bukhari recorded that Anas said, "A man from the Ansar used to lead the people in prayer in the Masjid of Quba'. Whenever he began a Surah in the recitation of the prayer that he was leading them, he would start by reciting `Say: He is Allah, One' until he completed the entire Surah. Then he would recite another Surah along with it (after it). And used to do this in every Rak`ah. So his companions spoke to him about this saying; `Verily, you begin the prayer with this Surah. Then you think that it is not sufficient for you unless you recite another Surah as well. So you should either recite it or leave it and recite another Surah instead.' The man replied, `I will not leave it off. If you want me to continue leading you (in prayer), I will do this; and if you all do not like it, I will leave you (i.e., I will stop leading you).' They used to consider him to be of the best of them to lead them in prayer and they did not want anyone else to lead them other than him. So, when the Prophet came they informed him of this information and he said,
«يَا فُلَانُ، مَا يَمْنَعُكَ أَنْ تَفْعَلَ مَا يَأْمُرُكَ بِهِ أَصْحَابُكَ، وَمَا حَمَلَكَ عَلَى لُزُوم هَذِهِ السُّورَةِ فِي كُلِّ رَكْعَةٍ؟»
(O so-and-so! What prevents you from doing what your companions are commanding you to do, and what makes you adhere to the recitation of this Surah in every Rak`ah) The man said, `Verily, I love it.' The Prophet replied,
«حُبُّكَ إِيَّاهَا أَدْخَلَكَ الْجَنَّة»
(Your love of it will cause you to enter Paradise.) This was recorded by Al-Bukhari, with a disconnected chain, but in a manner indicating his approval.



A Hadith that mentions this Surah is equivalent to a Third of the Qur'an
Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Sa`id that a man heard another man reciting
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One.'') and he was repeating over and over. So when morning came, the man went to the Prophet and mentioned that to him, and it was as though he was belittling it. The Prophet said,
«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ إِنَّهَا لَتَعْدِلُ ثُلُثَ الْقُرْآن»
(By He in Whose Hand is my soul, verily it is equivalent to a third of the Qur'an.) Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded it. Another Hadith Al-Bukhari recorded from Abu Sa`id, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Messenger of Allah said to his Companions,
«أَيَعْجِزُ أَحَدُكُمْ أَنْ يَقْرَأَ ثُلُثَ الْقُرْآنِ فِي لَيْلَةٍ؟»
(Is one of you not able to recite a third of the Qur'an in a single night) This was something that was difficult for them and they said, "Which of us is able to do that, O Messenger of Allah'' So he replied,
«اللهُ الْوَاحِدُ الصَّمَدُ ثُلُثُ الْقُرْآن»
("Allah is the One, As-Samad'' is a third of the Qur'an.) Al-Bukhari was alone in recording this Hadith.



Another Hadith that its Recitation necessitates Admission into Paradise
Imam Malik bin Anas recorded from `Ubayd bin Hunayn that he heard Abu Hurayrah saying, "I went out with the Prophet and he heard a man reciting `Say: He is Allah, the One.' So the Messenger of Allah said,
«وَجَبَت»
(It is obligatory.) I asked, `What is obligatory' He replied,
«الْجَنَّة»
(Paradise.)'' At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i also recorded it by way of Malik, and At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih Gharib. We do not know of it except as a narration of Malik.'' The Hadith in which the Prophet said,
«حُبُّكَ إِيَّاهَا أَدْخَلَكَ الْجَنَّة»
(Your love of it will cause you to enter Paradise.) has already been mentioned.



A Hadith about repeating this Surah
`Abdullah bin Imam Ahmad recorded from Mu`adh bin `Abdullah bin Khubayb, who reported that his father said, "We became thirsty and it had become dark while we were waiting for the Messenger of Allah to lead us in prayer. Then, when he came out he took me by my hand and said,
«قُل»
(Say.) Then he was silent. Then he said again,
«قُل»
(Say.) So I said, `What should I say' He said,
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
وَالْمُعَوِّذَتَيْنِ حِينَ تُمْسِي وَحِينَ تُصْبِحُ ثَلَاثًا، تَكْفِكَ كُلَّ يَوْمٍ مَرَّتَيْن»
(Say: "He is Allah, One,'' and the two Surahs of Refuge (Al-Falaq and An-Nas) when you enter upon the evening and the morning three times (each). They will be sufficient for you two times every day.)'' This Hadith was also recorded by Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih Gharib.'' An-Nasa'i also recorded through another chain of narrators with the wording,
«يَكْفِكَ كُلَّ شَيْء»
(They will suffice you against everything.)



Another Hadith about supplicating with it by Allah's Names
In his Book of Tafsir, An-Nasa'i recorded from `Abdullah bin Buraydah, who reported from his father that he entered the Masjid with the Messenger of Allah , and there was a man praying and supplicating saying, "O Allah! Verily, I ask you by my testifying that there is no God worthy of worship except You. You are the One, the Self-Sufficient Sustainer of all, Who does not give birth, nor were You born, and there is none comparable to Him.'' The Prophet said,
«وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لَقَدْ سَأَلَهُ بِاسْمِهِ الْأَعْظَم، الَّذِي إِذَ


A Hadith about seeking a Cure by these Surahs
Al-Bukhari recorded from `A'ishah that whenever the Prophet would go to bed every night, he would put his palms together and blow into them. Then he would recite into them (his palms), `Say: He is Allah, One', `Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of Al-Falaq', and `Say: I seek refuge with the Lord of mankind.' Then he would wipe whatever he was able to of his body with them (his palms). He would begin wiping his head and face with them and the front part of his body. He would do this (wiping his body) three times. The Sunan compilers also recorded this same Hadith.
[بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَـنِ الرَّحِيمِ ]
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ - اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ - لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(1. Say: "He is Allah, One.'') (2. "Allah As-Samad.'') (3. "He begets not, nor was He begotten.'') (4. "And there is none comparable to Him.'') The reason for the revelation of this Surah has already been mentioned. `Ikrimah said, "When the Jews said, `We worship `Uzayr, the son of Allah,' and the Christians said, `We worship the Messiah (`Isa), the son of Allah,' and the Zoroastrians said, `We worship the sun and the moon,' and the idolators said, `We worship idols,' Allah revealed to His Messenger ,
[قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ ]
(Say: "He is Allah, One.'') meaning, He is the One, the Singular, Who has no peer, no assistant, no rival, no equal and none comparable to Him. This word (Al-Ahad) cannot be used for anyone in affirmation except Allah the Mighty and Majestic, because He is perfect in all of His attributes and actions. Concerning His saying,
[اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ ]
(Allah As-Samad.) `Ikrimah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This means the One Who all of the creation depends upon for their needs and their requests.'' `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas, "He is the Master Who is perfect in His sovereignty, the Most Noble Who is perfect in His nobility, the Most Magnificent Who is perfect in His magnificence, the Most Forbearing Who is perfect in His forbearance, the All-Knowing Who is perfect in His knowledge, and the Most Wise Who is perfect in His wisdom. He is the One Who is perfect in all aspects of nobility and authority. He is Allah, glory be unto Him. These attributes are not befitting anyone other than Him. He has no coequal and nothing is like Him. Glory be to Allah, the One, the Irresistible.'' Al-A`mash reported from Shaqiq, who said that Abu Wa'il said,
[الصَّمَدُ]
(As-Samad.) is the Master Whose control is complete.''



Allah is Above having Children and procreating
Then Allah says,
[لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ - وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(He begets not, nor was He begotten. And there is none comparable to Him.) meaning, He does not have any child, parent or spouse. Mujahid said,
[وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَّهُ كُفُواً أَحَدٌ ]
(And there is none comparable to Him.) "This means He does not have a spouse.'' This is as Allah says,
[بَدِيعُ السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ أَنَّى يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُنْ لَّهُ صَـحِبَةٌ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ]
(He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife He created all things.) (6:101) meaning, He owns everything and He created everything. So how can He have a peer among His creatures who can be equal to Him, or a relative who can resemble Him Glorified, Exalted and far removed is Allah from such a thing. Allah says,
[وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً - لَقَدْ جِئْتُمْ شَيْئاً إِدّاً - تَكَادُ السَّمَـوَتُ يَتَفَطَّرْنَ مِنْهُ وَتَنشَقُّ الاٌّرْضُ وَتَخِرُّ الْجِبَالُ هَدّاً - أَن دَعَوْا لِلرَّحْمَـنِ وَلَداً - وَمَا يَنبَغِى لِلرَّحْمَـنِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَداً - إِن كُلُّ مَن فِى السَّمَـوَتِ وَالاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ آتِى الرَّحْمَـنِ عَبْداً - لَّقَدْ أَحْصَـهُمْ وَعَدَّهُمْ عَدّاً - وَكُلُّهُمْ ءَاتِيهِ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ فَرْداً ]
(And they say: Ar-Rahman has begotten a son. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins, that they ascribe a son to Ar-Rahman. But it is not suitable for Ar-Rahman that He should beget a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes unto Ar-Rahman as a slave. Verily, He knows each one of them, and has counted them a full counting. And all of them will come to Him alone on the Day of Resurrection.) (19:88-95) And Allah says,
[وَقَالُواْ اتَّخَذَ الرَّحْمَـنُ وَلَداً سُبْحَانَهُ بَلْ عِبَادٌ مُّكْرَمُونَ - لاَ يَسْبِقُونَهُ بِالْقَوْلِ وَهُمْ بِأَمْرِهِ يَعْمَلُونَ ]
(And they say: "Ar-Rahman has begotten a son. Glory to Him! They are but honored servants. They speak not until He has spoken, and they act on His command.) (21:26-27) Allah also says,
[وَجَعَلُواْ بَيْنَهُ وَبَيْنَ الْجِنَّةِ نَسَباً وَلَقَدْ عَلِمَتِ الجِنَّةُ إِنَّهُمْ لَمُحْضَرُونَ ]
سُبْحَـنَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ-]
(And they have invented a kinship between Him and the Jinn, but the Jinn know well that they have indeed to appear before Him. Glorified is Allah! (He is free) from what they attribute unto Him!) (37:158-159) In Sahih Al-Bukhari, it is recorded (that that the Prophet said),
«لَا أَحَدَ أَصْبَرُ عَلَى أَذًى سَمِعَهُ مِنَ اللهِ، يَجْعَلُونَ لَهُ وَلَدًا، وَهُوَ يَرْزُقُهُمْ وَيُعَافِيهِم»
(There is no one more patient with something harmful that he hears than Allah. They attribute a son to Him, while it is He Who gives them sustenance and cures them.) Al-Bukhari also recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,
«قَالَ اللهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ: كَذَّبَنِي ابْنُ آدَمَ وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ ذَلِكَ، وَشَتَمَنِي وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لَهُ ذَلِكَ، فَأَمَّا تَكْذِيبُهُ إِيَّايَ فَقَوْلُهُ: لَنْ يُعِيدَنِي كَمَا بَدَأَنِي، وَلَيْسَ أَوَّلُ الْخَلْقِ بِأَهْوَنَ عَلَيَّ مِنْ إِعَادَتِهِ، وَأَمَّا شَتْمُهُ إِيَّايَ فَقَوْلُهُ: اتَّخَذَ اللهُ وَلَدًا، وَأَنَا الْأَحَدُ الصَّمَدُ، لَمْ أَلِدْ وَلَمْ أُولَدْ، وَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِي كُفُوًا أَحَد»
(Allah the Mighty and Majestic says, "The Son of Adam denies Me and he has no right to do so, and he abuses Me and he has no right to do so. In reference to his denial of Me, it is his saying: `He (Allah) will never re-create me like He created me before.' But the re-creation of him is easier than his original creation. As for his cursing Me, it is his saying: `Allah has taken a son.' But I am the One, the Self-Sufficient Master. I do not give birth, nor was I born, and there is none comparable to Me.'') This is the end of the Tafsir of Surat Al-Ikhlas, and all praise and blessings are due to Allah.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;


In another forum , a Christian told me , what Christians write about Muhammed (p) & what Muslims write about Jesus (p) is same type. I told him , no. It’s not the same .


Many Christians write to degrade Muhammed (p). When Muslims write about Jesus (p) , we do it with love & respect. We don’t write that he is God & it’s not to show disrespect but show the due respect to both God & Jesus (p).

We believe , after the second coming of Jesus (p) , he will deny to accept the worship of Christians & on the last day , worshippers of human being & angel will get punishment for blasphemy.

I hope , Christian participants here do understand that Muslims RESPECT Jesus (p) …..yes , I understand , u think it’s not enough to respect him only …he deserves more….worship…but we want to save it only for our Creator. We have No intention to insult God or Jesus (p ) or holy Spirit (p).


I was looking for Zakir Naik's lecture where he gave some ref on how some verses regarding Jesus (p) is removed from Bible. I did not get what I looked for but got this one.


It’s from a Christian site…at least it appears to do so.


Which Bible verses did the NIV delete?


What are you NIV readers missing? What does the real Bible say?


"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."


This is one of the GREATEST verses testifying of the trinity. That is why the Jehovah's Witnesses leave it out. They do not believe in the trinity and they do not believe that Jesus is God. Why does the NIV leave it out...?



Whole books have been written on the manuscript evidence that supports inclusion of this verse in the Bible. Reader, do you believe in the triunity of God? If so, then this deletion should offend you.


People are playing around with the Bible and it ain't funny.


________________________________________
NIV Reader: Do you have enough confidence in the NIV to...
tell God, OUT LOUD, that these verses do not belong in the Bible?
If not, you need to get a King James so you can have some confidence

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Bible/NIV/niv_deletes_verses.htm



ok , i just saw anther Christian site where they are telling readers to be cautious about bogus bible.....Strange....when Muslimls claim that Bible has been changed , normally Christians protoest but these info are from their sites.......they are accusing other Christians to play with Bible.


Attack1-1.gif



http://www.remnantofgod.org/B-BIBLES.HTM#bogusbibles

First off I would like to list the verses that I have so far found TOTALLY OMITTED or BRACKETED in the NIV and NASB.

(Bracketed is to say it should NOT be accepted as "of God") Then I would like to share quite a few verses that have been "re-written, altered, twisted, and cut up" in the NIV and NASB.

The reason I am sharing the truth about the NIV and NASB and not all the other corrupted Bibles as well, is because these two appear to be the most popular today.



There are others that are corrupted as well and I pray the Lord reveals this to those of you that trust these "Bogus Bibles."


**

Hope i did not hurt Christians feelings.....i want to know. My question is : if Bible is from God , why so many verses are removed from Bible by Christians ? I also read long ago that many verses are returning back in some versions…how is that ?



verses of the Day from Quran :



Surah 25

Al-Furqan

And on the Day when He will gather them together and that which they worship besides God [idols, angels, pious men, saints, 'Iesa (Jesus) -- son of Maryam (Mary), etc.].



He will say: "Was it you who misled these My slaves or did they (themselves) stray from the (Right) Path?"


They will say: "Glorified be You! It was not for us to take any Auliyâ' (Protectors, Helpers, etc.) besides You,


but You gave them and their fathers comfort till they forgot the warning, and became a lost people (doomed to total loss).



Thus they (false gods all deities other than God) will give you (polytheists) the lie regarding what you say (that they are gods besides God), then you can neither avert (the punishment), nor get help.


And whoever among you does wrong (i.e. sets up rivals to God), We shall make him taste a great torment.( 25: 17-19 )


Verse of the day from Bible :

"My Father is greater than I."

[ John 14:28]

 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Many Christians write to degrade Muhammed (p). When Muslims write about Jesus (p) , we do it with love & respect. We don’t write that he is God & it’s not to show disrespect but show the due respect to both God & Jesus (p).
yeah, exactly. bc when you say jesus is son of God, you are doing injustice to God, and also to Jesus, bc he never claimed this, so when you say that , you basically are altering Jesus's words. Love is not just saying "I love you", but love towards someone is when you are being just, respectful etc. to him/her.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

we believe that he did the things you mentioned. We really do believe in his miracles. but it was his miracles, that God gave to him , so he could prove to people that he is a indeed a Messenger of Allah. All the prophets came with miracles, so these were miracles that were performed by Jesus.

La ilahe il-allah wahdahu la sharika la.

this is another if I can call, an extension of shahada that we usually say which means

There is no diety of worship but Allah, without rivals or partners.
:)
Well, what about Jesus doing and saying things that only God can do like forgive sins? Only God is cable of that. Jesus did that. He said different things to individuals like "Your sins are forgiven" and your sins are forgiven you go and sin no more" I do not condemn you. God said in the Old Testament "I am God, there is no other, and I will not share my glory with another" Jesus perform acts that only God can do, which bears witness that He is the son of God. God didn't consider Him to be another. Only God can forgive sin no prophet ever claimed such authority. Our shahada is: There is only one God and Jesus is the Son of God. It is written "Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father. Those who pierced Him will be ashamed. Jesus said, You will die in your sins, because you do not believe I am He." He that has the Son has life; he that has not the son has not life but the wrath of God abides on him! :phew :raging: :cry:
 
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