"Views on Atonement for Sin."

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http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/44400-views-atonement-sin-8.html#post768004

Yes we need his help and forgiveness. But God did not become a human and just simply die on the cross, why I explained on the link above (of the post) some of the reasons why can't God become a human. It's not about limiting power of God, it's about things which if God does He doesn't seem to be God anymore. And Allah stated himself on the many verses that He doesn't forget, He doesn't lie, None is like him.... So Allah swt is telling us in the Qur'an about things which does not belong to God, if God becomes in human flesh? that he loses his perfect virtues, bc human don't have perfect virtues. and many other things. You fail to realize that I'm not saying these of my own, i'm telling what the Qur'an is saying that God doesn't lie, forget, none is like Him etc. etc. but I don't know if you are paying attention completely to my posts.

As a creation we are perfect, but remember that we don't have perfect virtues, we go to bathroom which is a disgusting thing etc. etc. cuz i've mentioned them 100 times. bc this world is like this, and in Jannah everything is perfect, we don't get sick, we don't get tired, we don't have to go to bathroom and take out what we ate etc.

We are perfect as a creation , but we make sins, and everyone knows that, but bc Adam made a sin, I'm not responsible for that, He a.s made it himself, and Allah take into account every single person and his/her deeds, or forgives him/her.

2:111. And they say: "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."

produce proof if you are truthful

Don't take everything literally.


I don't think you are reading my post carefully. I don't need to prove this, and it is you who is taking everything literally. Your view is that of a carnal minded subject. That which is of the flesh is flesh and that of the spirit is spirit. It is written "You must be born again to be saved" The difference between us is you are God's subject, and I am His child, because I have been born again. It is not something I can prove or describe for you to understand. I only share that I have been with Jesus. Can you explain what a strawberry looks and taste like to a blind person who never had it?
 
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I don't think you are reading my post carefully. I don't need to prove this, and it is you who is taking everything literally. Your view is that of a carnal minded subject. That which is of the flesh is flesh and that of the spirit is spirit. It is written "You must be born again to be saved" The difference between us is you are God's subject, and I am His child, because I have been born again. It is not something I cannot prove or describe for you to understand. I only share that I have been with Jesus. Can you explain what a strawberry looks and taste like to a blind person who never had it?

Dude, do whatever you want, if you want to believe God has a son, or he was in human flesh , believe. I have made clear the message to you more than 100 times I think. and if you need I'll it 100 more if you want, but we can't stay on a loop like this. and inshaAllah we will be witness of each other on the day of judgement.

Can you explain what a strawberry looks and taste like to a blind person who never had it?
Would it make any difference on explainin what a strawberry looks and taste like to a person who is not blind?? and also being a blind man you don't miss the tasting senses. :) try a better analogy.
 
PEACE

:sl:

I am dead serious, but not dead spiritually. I have an education master's degree in education.

Then I hope you have an analytical mind enough to evaluate the evidence below. Your set of questions intrigued me to answer them.Please read with an open mind. Thankyou in advance.

Tell me how a bee flies? To fly it breaks every aerodynamic law for its size shape and weight.

By the will of God, they are mazing creatures.

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful


[16:68-69]

And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains and trees,
and in (the hives) they build for you.


Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely.
From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein
there is healing for the people.
This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect


It is a wonderful miracle of God. Bees are the chief workers of
cross-pollination. If it were not for them, half of our most beautiful flowers
would disappear. Bees work at amazing speed. A honeybee, thrusting her
nose into one flower after another, can pollinate at the rate of about
30 flowers per minute!

Who taught the bees? What book did they read? Where did they go to
school? God taught them and God desingned them. God programmed all these things into them. The bees submitted to God and accepted whatever He gave them. They were created to serve us, and for us to appreciate
them as a gift from God. The bees are happy and content to
carry out their purpose. It is our turn as humans to submit to
God, worship Him and be content with what He gave us



Tell me also what holds the atoms of a tree together.

Allahs will.

He it is Who sends down water from the sky; from it you drink and from it (grows) the vegetation on which you send your cattle to pasture.

With it He causes to grow for you the crops, the olives, the date-palms, the grapes, and every kind of fruit.

Verily! In this is indeed an evident proof and a manifest sign for people who give thought.

(16:10-11)

He is the creator. He has desined things in a way whch even science is yet to dicover. BUT, just because we dont know of it, it doesnt mean the answer doesnt exist, is just shows the limitation of our knowledge regardless of how knowledgable we think we are.


Allah, glory and exaltation to Him, says: (It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness. Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds, Forgiveness, and a great Reward). (Verses: 28 & 29 of Al-Fat-h Surah)


The main focus here being.....
This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its shoot, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight.

While you are at it, tell me where the wind is coming from and where it is going and how high is up?

WIND, is created when cool air meets hot air. This is what happens when clouds are formed.......

The clouds are pushed by the wind: Cumulonimbus clouds begin to form when wind pushes some small pieces of clouds (cumulus clouds) to an area where these clouds converge

2) Joining: Then the small clouds join together forming a larger cloud1

3) Stacking: When the small clouds join together, updrafts within the larger cloud increase. The updrafts near the center of the cloud are stronger than those near the edges.These updrafts cause the cloud body to grow vertically, so the cloud is stacked up.This vertical growth causes the cloud body to stretch into cooler regions of the atmosphere, where drops of water and hail formulate and begin to grow larger and larger. When these drops of water and hail become too heavy for the updrafts to support them, they begin to fall from the cloud as rain, hail, etc

A cumulonimbus cloud. After the cloud is stacked up, rain comes out of it.

God has said in the Quran:

Have you not seen how God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a stack, and then you see the rain come out of it.... (Quran, 24:43)

Meteorologists have only recently come to know these details of cloud formation, structure, and function by using advanced equipment like planes, satellites, computers, balloons, and other equipment, to study wind and its direction, to measure humidity and its variations, and to determine the levels and variations of atmospheric pressure.

The preceding verse, after mentioning clouds and rain, speaks about hail and lightning:

....And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky, and He strikes with it whomever He wills, and turns it from whomever He wills. The vivid flash of its lightning nearly blinds the sight. (Quran, 24:43)

Meteorologists have found that these cumulonimbus clouds, that shower hail, reach a height of 25,000 to 30,000 ft (4.7 to 5.7 miles),5 like mountains, as the Quran said, “...And He sends down hail from mountains (clouds) in the sky...”


After you answer these, I have another set of questions

I sincerely would like to know what these are.please ask. Thank you for taking out the time to read this.

PEACE

:w:
 
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and he ate and drink, and prayed, and went to the bathroom, and got killed....... did u forget to mention these? and how can u say "he never sinned", with God there is no such statement as "He doesn't sin" cuz God is not tempted by evil. I can't imagine how can you put God in such a low level as making him in human flesh.

Yes, when the Word (who was with God and was God) became flesh, He voluntarily subjected Himself to all that having a human body entails---hunger, thirst, bodily functions, and "death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8). When He was in "the form of God...equal with God" (Phil. 2:6), He was pure Spirit and not subject to death. So He had to take on a body that would be subject to death, in order to die for our sins.

I say He never sinned because the noncorrupt Word of God, the Bible, says He never sinned. See John 8:46; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15; 1 John 3:5.

By the way, bodily functions like going to the bathroom might be "disgusting" as you put it, but are you saying God made a mistake is creating our human bodies with that necessity? It is hard to imagine having to do that in Heaven, though we may be able to eat there, as Jesus ate after His resurrection and in His new resurrection body. But while we are still on this earth, having to go to the bathroom is exactly as God intends it. Don't question God and His creation of man with that need and don't question God and His ability to take on a human body with that need, in order to die for the sins of the world, including yours.
 
Yes, when the Word (who was with God and was God) became flesh, He voluntarily subjected Himself to all that having a human body entails---hunger, thirst, bodily functions, and "death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8). When He was in "the form of God...equal with God" (Phil. 2:6), He was pure Spirit and not subject to death. So He had to take on a body that would be subject to death, in order to die for our sins.

I say He never sinned because the noncorrupt Word of God, the Bible, says He never sinned. See John 8:46; 2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Pet. 2:22; Heb. 4:15; 1 John 3:5.

By the way, bodily functions like going to the bathroom might be "disgusting" as you put it, but are you saying God made a mistake is creating our human bodies with that necessity? It is hard to imagine having to do that in Heaven, though we may be able to eat there, as Jesus ate after His resurrection and in His new resurrection body. But while we are still on this earth, having to go to the bathroom is exactly as God intends it. Don't question God and His creation of man with that need and don't question God and His ability to take on a human body with that need, in order to die for the sins of the world, including yours.

the post I replied to alpiana, goes same for u.
 
Dude, do whatever you want, if you want to believe God has a son, or he was in human flesh , believe. I have made clear the message to you more than 100 times I think. and if you need I'll it 100 more if you want, but we can't stay on a loop like this. and inshaAllah we will be witness of each other on the day of judgement.


Would it make any difference on explainin what a strawberry looks and taste like to a person who is not blind?? and also being a blind man you don't miss the tasting senses. :) try a better analogy.
I respect your freedom to choose. It sounds like you are speaking from experience; so, to you be your religion and to me be my relationship with him that gave himself for me. Jesus is so awesome, I bless his name.
 
What is not perfect about Jesus? Because he eats and goes to the bathroom does not defile a man. What sin has Jesus committed?
We are not in the habit of pointing out the sins of others and we have no record of any the Jesus (a.s.) committed.

Who said perfection can't exist in human form? God made the human beings perfect. We are fearfully and wonderfully made. So you are saying what God makes is less than perfect.
Yes, we are wonderfully made, but we are not perfect as we have the freedom to obey Allah or not. Angels are perfect, we are not.
You error not knowing the Scriptures. God made us perfect starting with Adam; it was sin that took away the perfection we once had through Adam; now it takes the last Adam to give it back so we could be right with God bc U ain't gona do it wit ur works!
The sin of disobeying Allah did not make him any less perfect that he was originally. He made a mistake as is often common with the human condition.
 
Which verse in the Koran says God cannot enter this world in the flesh?
Are you are quoting to me your logic, placing limits on God?
Do you know the mind of God and have Him figured out?
I don't see it as placing limits on Allah. We just can't imagine the Glory of Allah stooping so low as to "become human".

Sure am. Jesus said, "Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect." I compare myself to that standard every day and realize how woefully short I fall.

If I believed that God was on the same level as humans I would start worshiping the fire thingy.
But isn't this what you just said that He did? Don't Christians believe that God became human?

Also about the video, I don't believe that God came into the world as a man to figure out how we feel, but after slumming it for 33 years He sure took away our ability to whine, "Your God. You don't know what it's like for me."
I can't imagine Allah needing to become manifest as a human for any reason, much less to die on the cross for sins that I commited.
 
I did and they still don't. Now you may be getting a personal revelation which would make you the last prophet.

I am a balance, on one side the good the other the bad. No matter how much good I put on the one side I still have the bad. God is just and the bad has to be paid for, has to be taken away before I can come before Him. Jesus paid the price, that is atonement.
Question: Are you saying that Allah is incapable of merely forgiving sin, that it MUST be paid for, or punished, in some shape or form?
 
I respect your freedom to choose. It sounds like you are speaking from experience; so, to you be your religion and to me be my relationship with him that gave himself for me. Jesus is so awesome, I bless his name.
The focus in Christianity is on the human, Jesus; whereas, the focus in Islam is on the One God, Allah.
 
The focus in Christianity is on the human, Jesus; whereas, the focus in Islam is on the One God, Allah.

Jesus is God. Those who don't know that, don't know God our creator! They are serving an image of what they believe God is and not the true God. And Satan is happy to entertain that idea with signs and wonders.
 
Jesus is God. Those who don't know that, don't know God our creator! They are serving an image of what they believe God is and not the true God. And Satan is happy to entertain that idea with signs and wonders.

You are very close, but the truth is:


Jesus(as) is a very much loved Prophet(PBUH). Those who don't know that, don't know God(swt) our creator! They are serving an image of what they believe God(swt) is and not the true God(swt). And Satan is happy to entertain that idea with signs and wonders.
 
Question: Are you saying that Allah is incapable of merely forgiving sin, that it MUST be paid for, or punished, in some shape or form?

At the start had He said, "I will forgive your sins" then I'm sure that's what He would do. That's not what He said though. God is just, in Exodus it says, "The guilty shall not go unpunished." So our sins have to be paid for. He is also merciful, in one of John's letters it says, "God is love."
This leaves us in quite the predicament. We cannot save ourselves. God from the beginning had a plan to restore our relationship and assure our place in heaven.
 
At the start had He said, "I will forgive your sins" then I'm sure that's what He would do. That's not what He said though. God is just, in Exodus it says, "The guilty shall not go unpunished." So our sins have to be paid for. He is also merciful, in one of John's letters it says, "God is love."
This leaves us in quite the predicament. We cannot save ourselves. God from the beginning had a plan to restore our relationship and assure our place in heaven.

Some key words in my opinion. "The guilty shall not go unpunished."

We will be punished for all of our sins and will pay the alloted price Allah(swt) has set for our misdoings. we are very fortunate that Allah(swt) is all merciful and all all forgiving. He does not require we all pay the true cost of our sins and in his mercy has limited our debts to only that which we can afford, plus he has given us rewards for the little we do in great excess of what they are worth.

We can not earn our way into Heaven, but Allah(swt) has sent us a reduced payment plan in which his mercy offsets the cost.
 
If I believed that God was on the same level as humans I would start worshiping the fire thingy.

But isn't this what you just said that He did? Don't Christians believe that God became human?

Teachers of small children come down to their level. Does this decrease who the teacher is? We could not meet God where He is at so He had to come meet us where we are.
He came in the flesh and set aside His diety in that manifestation of Himself.

A semi is coming down the road you need to cross. Unless you are suicidal you really don't have a choice. Had He come as full on God we would have had no choice but to worship Him.
Jesus came for His bride. I don't know about anybody else but I would rather have a bride that of her own free will chooses me than that she is with me because she had no choice.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The only earnest we have of paradise is having the Holy Spirit and being sealded by the blood of the lamb hid in Christ.

LMAO! Who takes this bs seriously?? Do you know that your faith is just a copy of past Pagan dogmas?? Your Christ never existed, he is merely a imaginary figure inspired by Mithras, Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, Hercules, and Krishna.
 

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