"Views on Atonement for Sin."

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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Philosopher said:
LMAO! Who takes this bs seriously?? Do you know that your faith is just a copy of past Pagan dogmas?? Your Christ never existed, he is merely a imaginary figure inspired by Mithras, Osiris, Attis, Dionysus, Hercules, and Krishna.
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As a Muslim I take offense to your words. Isa(swt) did/does exist and is one of our most beloved of Prophets(PBUT)

I do believe Christian have strayed from his teachings, but I do not deny that they have at least minimal knowledge of him and would sincerely learn to Love him if they understood his True Nature and were able to accept him as the Great Prophet(PBUH) he truly is.
 
Woodrow said:
Some key words in my opinion. "The guilty shall not go unpunished."

We will be punished for all of our sins and will pay the alloted price Allah(swt) has set for our misdoings. we are very fortunate that Allah(swt) is all merciful and all all forgiving. He does not require we all pay the true cost of our sins and in his mercy has limited our debts to only that which we can afford, plus he has given us rewards for the little we do in great excess of what they are worth.

We can not earn our way into Heaven, but Allah(swt) has sent us a reduced payment plan in which his mercy offsets the cost.
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Three things God said:
1. The guilty shall not go unpunished
2. An eye for an eye
3. I came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it

Sin is a foul abomination in the eyes of God.
The full price will be paid.
Jesus on the cross said, "It is finished" then died.
In the original Greek it meant not that His life was finished but the debt is paid. It means the same as the final mortgage payment or car payment.


On the reward side, that which is done for the observance of men is dross. That which is meant only for God has great value. Ten dollars worth of food given to a poor person anonymously has infinitely greater value than a thousand dollars in the collection plate that is meant to be seen by others.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Woodrow said:
As a Muslim I take offense to your words. Isa(swt) did/does exist and is one of our most beloved of Prophets(PBUT)

I do believe Christian have strayed from his teachings, but I do not deny that they have at least minimal knowledge of him and would sincerely learn to Love him if they understood his True Nature and were able to accept him as the Great Prophet(PBUH) he truly is.
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No, Jesus did not exist. Historians have standards upon which they can verify the existence of past figures. Jesus fails these standards.
 
Woodrow said:
Some key words in my opinion. "The guilty shall not go unpunished."

We will be punished for all of our sins and will pay the alloted price Allah(swt) has set for our misdoings. we are very fortunate that Allah(swt) is all merciful and all all forgiving. He does not require we all pay the true cost of our sins and in his mercy has limited our debts to only that which we can afford, plus he has given us rewards for the little we do in great excess of what they are worth.

We can not earn our way into Heaven, but Allah(swt) has sent us a reduced payment plan in which his mercy offsets the cost.
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Brother, your post brought to mind these hadith:

Bukhari 8:498 Narrated Ibn Abbas: The Prophet narrating about his Lord and, "Allah ordered (the appointed angels over you) that the good and the bad deeds be written, and He then showed (the way) how (to write).

1) If somebody intends to do a good deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write for him a full good deed (in his account with Him);

2) and if he intends to do a good deed and actually did it, then Allah will write for him (in his account) with Him (its reward equal) from ten to seven hundred times to many more times:

3) and if somebody intended to do a bad deed and he does not do it, then Allah will write a full good deed (in his account) with Him, and

4) if he intended to do it (a bad deed) and actually did it, then Allah will write one bad deed (in his account)."

How does this hadith demonstrate the Christian claim that Muslims strive to "earn" Paradise through our good deeds? It instead demonstrates the immeasurable Mercy of Allah.

Bukhari 4:538 Narrated Abu Huraira Allah's Apostle said, "A prostitute was forgiven by Allah, because, passing by a panting dog near a well and seeing that the dog was about to die of thirst, she took off her shoe, and tying it with her head-cover she drew out some water for it. So, Allah forgave her because of that."

How does the simple act of giving water to a thirsty dog offset the sins of a prostitute? Here we see that the Judgement of Allah does not fit with human logic. Great is the Glory of Allah!

How much more beautiful is the Mercy of Allah rather than the requirement of an atoning sacrifice for forgiveness of sin. Here again the focus is on Allah instead of the human, Jesus.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

evangel said:
I forgive you.
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So you're taking a false figure to refute reality?? Makes no sense.

Hindus feel sorry for you. Muslims feel sorry for you. Zoroastrians feel sorry for you. Jains feel sorry for you. The list can go on and on.

I wonder what makes you think you're right and they're wrong??
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Philosopher said:
So you're taking a false figure to refute reality?? Makes no sense.

Hindus feel sorry for you. Muslims feel sorry for you. Zoroastrians feel sorry for you. Jains feel sorry for you. The list can go on and on.

I wonder what makes you think you're right and they're wrong??
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Faith, the same as you.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

evangel said:
Faith, the same as you.
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Faith?? LMAO! Is it Christian logic that atheists have faith??

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/ath/blathm_rel_religion.htm
http://www.atheists.org/faqs/atheism.html#not.religion
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/intro.html

"To you I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." -- Woody Alen


Note: If your faith is wrong, you will be punished in eternal hellfire :raging:
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

evangel said:
If you stand on an idea that has absolutely no proof of being true then you stand by faith.
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Yes, I see somebody is lacking knowledge in evolution and quantum mechanic :D

While atheist judge everything on empiricism and reason, Christians and Muslims love to live their lives by fairytales.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Philosopher said:
Yes, I see somebody is lacking knowledge in evolution and quantum mechanic :D

While atheist judge everything on empiricism and reason, Christians and Muslims love to live their lives by fairytales.
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You worship your mind while I worship God. You have faith in your mind, I have faith in God.
P.S.
evolution=theory=no definite, absolute, positive proof=faith
 
this has been mentioned a few times in this forum. I am going to reiterate it again.

"Why on earth are some of the atheists, the most adamant of Evangelists?"

Is there really such a strong need to win converts to Atheism?

Yet, at the same time I am grateful for evangelical atheists, they do give a very vivid reminder as to how obnoxious, evangelism can sound.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

evangel said:
You worship your mind while I worship God. You have faith in your mind, I have faith in God.
P.S.
evolution=theory=no definite, absolute, positive proof=faith
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This is the point that I have been trying to make - that the the full theory of evolution is no more than a belief system. For evolutionists to claim that all life descended from a unicellular "common ancestor" without at least a Higher Power directing the process is as much a belief system as the one you and I have. Evolutionists refuse to admit this and claim that evolution is a scientific fact.
 
Philosopher,
I preach the gospel because I believe that Jesus is the way to eternal life. I gain nothing from it except the joy of expressing my attitude of gratitude for the sacrifice made for me, for the gift I was given. At the end of my days I may have appeared to be a fool to some but if that is the worst then what consequence is that to me. If I am wrong, as you believe, then I will have lived a life led by Jesus and will hopefully be remembered by how I loved and was loved.
Muslims speak to me of Islam for mostly the same reason, their concern for me. Their faith gives them the desire to meet me in eternity.
When it comes to sharing my faith Paul said it best, "I do not come with eloquent speech and great arguments, I only come with Christ and Him crucified."
This explains the Christian and Muslim desire to share. What I would like to understand is your desire to share. I can make no sense of a goal in what you post. You don't believe in a god or afterlife so it isn't a concern for what happens next. I can't believe that you would want to turn us from the precepts we hold dear; faith, hope, charity, love, forgiveness, brotherly kindness, virtue, honor, sacrifice, etc...
Basically what I see is a desire to dissuade me from my belief in God because in your eyes it is stupid. Is this what you are after, to destoy my faith as a means to validate your own beliefs. I refuse to believe you would be that selfish. I pray against that condemnation against you whether from without or within.
 
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I almost sense an inkling of jealousy in many of the posts made by athiests on this forum. They do not believe in religion and think those that practice their faith are ignorant and foolish, yet they are members of a Muslim forum. The question in mind is why? It doesn't seem to revolve around interest in any particlular faith.
 
There is a saying "With whom you stay, you become like him".
So maybe atheists should not stay here, otherwise they will become foolish and ignorant like us. :p
 
alapiana1 said:
Jesus is God. Those who don't know that, don't know God our creator! They are serving an image of what they believe God is and not the true God. And Satan is happy to entertain that idea with signs and wonders.
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No our focus is not on the human Jesus, it is on the divine Jesus. Jesus is the Son of the living God and those that don't know that in the deepest demensions of their heart don't know God. They only serve an image of what they think is God or what someone else told them God is. I hear from God for myself you can too.
 
Woodrow said:
this has been mentioned a few times in this forum. I am going to reiterate it again.

"Why on earth are some of the atheists, the most adamant of Evangelists?"

Is there really such a strong need to win converts to Atheism?

Yet, at the same time I am grateful for evangelical atheists, they do give a very vivid reminder as to how obnoxious, evangelism can sound.
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indeed, this is another one of life's many puzzles. maybe they pity us poor fools?
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

evangel said:
You worship your mind while I worship God. You have faith in your mind, I have faith in God.
P.S.
evolution=theory=no definite, absolute, positive proof=faith
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Use of semantics doesnt make you a right, does it??

I worship nothing, while you worship an imaginary deity.

Obviously you know nothing about evolution and neither do you care to know.

Christianity has no proof whatsoever backing it's ludicrous claims. There are countless disproofs against Christainity, though. This is a good start:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/

I care about truth, dont let Christianity (virus of the mind) ruin you. Christianity has caused enough pain and suffering as it is.
 

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