A Message To The Non-Muslims.

[Amadeus85]

I'm Christian, but I accept Muhammad as a messenger/prophet of God.

You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. Just like you cant be muslim and believe in Jesus Christ the Son of God.
For christians Muhammad was just a historical person, like Julius Cesear or Napoleon, who created religion called islam using some christian and jewish beliefs.

I said this simply to clarify some things.

 

[Muslim Woman]

I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

You cant be a christian and in the same time accept Muhammad as the prophet of God. ...

haha , i posted about a Christian lady in random interesting news : She wants to die as 100 % Chrisitian & 100 % Muslim :rollseyes


don't know how it's possible but she believes she can do it


Verses of the day :



Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists,


and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say:


We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.


And when they hear what has been revealed to the apostle you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize;


they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).



(Al-Ma'idah 5: 82- 83)

 

[Pygoscelis]

It is obvious that there is at least four. :skeleton:

I can think of 5.

D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

Verse of the day :

And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say:
Our Lord! We believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth)
(Al-Ma'idah 5:83)

I thought it would be benefisial to add previous verse, as to reveal who this verse is directed to:

Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.(5:82)
And when they hear what has been revealed to the messenger you will see their eyes overflowing with tears on account of the truth that they recognize; they say: Our Lord! we believe, so write us down with the witnesses (of truth).(5:83)

I can think of 5.

D, God is adequate at communication but WANTS people to misunderstand his message. This seems the logical choice if God is all powerful.

E, God does not exist and all of this is created by man.

Ok, I stand corrected, the reason I didn't added those two was because of my bias.

We believe shaytan has no power to mislead us unless God allows it to. So that's why I didn't made this distinction between my option 3 and your option D.

As for E, although my second option acknowledge the existence of God, I think you could see how I didn't bother to make a difference between those two.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.

And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

 

[Redeemed]

Sorry I haven't been 100% clear, what I meant was not that Jesus (peace be upon him) brought a distorted message. What I meant was that the message was distorted after him.



the doubt he had at first was from the shock of meeting djibriel. I think anyone would be shocked from such an event.

You say that many prophets support the message of Jesus (peace be upon him) including Jesus himself (peace be upon, him). But how can that be? According to Christians there has been no prophet after Jesus (peace be upon him). So how can another prophet have supported the message? And the Bible was compiled and partially written after Jesus, peace be upon him so how could he have supported it?

I guess you mean other prophets confirmed it because it was similar to what they said. In that case, you could say the Qur'an is also confirmed, because it also says the same thing as earlier prophets say. The only things it contradicts Christianity on are things like the trinity, or celibacy. And those things are only derived from very vague verses of the NT and is nowhere to be found in the OT. In fact all other prophets spoke of God closer in terms to the Islamic monotheism rather then of a Christian trinity.

First of all, there have been no prophets that ever acted the way Muhammad did about there revelation. I believe to say the prophet was shocked instead of doubted the source of his visions and dreams is a distortion of what the truth is about what really happened. The Old Testament is replete with the promise of Jesus and his purpose. As far as the celibacy thing is concerned, that is big with Catholic priest and not necessary for salvation. But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise and that is where we clash and draw the line. If you don't believe that Jesus is he, with all do respect, you will experience a Christless eternity, and since Jesus is the only way to God, well, do the math.
Until He comes, Peace

 

[Redeemed]

And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

That has happened to me too. The more I listen and read about the Qur'an draws me closer to the Bible by making me appreciate even more than before. It is written that all things work together for the good to them that love the lord and are called according to his purpose.

 

[Phil12123]

And after months on this forum, reading post after post that claims to have "proven" this point to me, that the "true" message of Jesus was distorted by Paul and others, I have yet to read anything that is even near convincing of this viewpoint. I hear that Islam is a "logical" and "rational" religion. I don't see that to be true at all. From where I stand, it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel. I'm sure you don't see it that way, but every attempt of even the most learned of my Islamic brothers to share this story with me comes across as nothing more than an attempt to sell snake oil as medicine, and often even less.

I haven't lost any respect for those individuals who follow Islam. There are parts of it that I even deeply appreciate. But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

I understand all you say, and to some point, I actually agree; however, I don't believe it is possible that so many prophets and apostles have a distorted message especially when it is a testimony to what many have seen and heard. Like I mentioned earlier Muhammad is the main messenger that supports a distored view of the Bible. Since Muhammad doubted his own revelations as being from God, I doubt them even more. It is more likely that one will be mistaken rather than many prophets and apostles supporting the same message about Jesus including Jesus himself.

I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;


Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.


---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .

But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?


Phil12123 : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.





Really ???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non – Muslim / non- Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet ? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap , it’s a logical story.



I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely , we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know , how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.

But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise

Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.



Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.



May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.


Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum

May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being



Verse of the day :


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)

 

[Redeemed]

I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.

Amen, Amen, Amen

 

[Phil12123]

Grace Seeker : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

---well, I guess, Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p).

The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against. In fact, none of the writings of the NT were written by Him. Jews would have to contend with Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, and Jude. And all of them are consistent in proclaiming the truth they write. Both OT and NT give the standard, "that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established." The NT has at least 8 witnesses. We don't have to take the word of ONE man, Muhammad, that he really was visited by Gabriel, etc. So it is much easier to conclude that one man was wrong in what he wrote rather than 8 wrong.

Phil12123: If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

Really???? A human being can beat God Almighty in fighting…..this is logical ?????? Why not ask any non–Muslim / non-Christian about the story where God was beaten by a Prophet? Let me know which judge / jury board u find gives ans that yap, it’s a logical story.

I seriously request u to know about the ans from a neutral person. Surely, we are not going to change our faith after hearing the ans …I m just curious to know,how a logical person can accept this story that human being are more powerful than God.

What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset. For Jesus (God in the flesh) to go to the cross and lay down His life in payment of the sins of the world, is so strange to the Muslim mindset that it equals defeat of God by His human enemies. So it is considered illogical and the story is concocted that God in heaven "rescued" Jesus to defeat His enemies. Right? Well, that is wrong, wrong, wrong. Though His spirit was willing and His flesh weak, Jesus voluntarily came to earth for that very purpose, to lay down His life to pay mankind's sin debt. He said,

John 10:
11. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
12. "But he who is a hireling and not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them.
13. "The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep.
14. "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.
15. "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16. "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
17. "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
18. "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.''

Is that so hard to understand? There is no defeat, except of Satan. Hebrews 2:14 --- Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus (p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.

Maybe, when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated, then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.

Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT. We don't try to avoid it by saying it has been distorted or corrupted. NONE of the NT has. But what does it mean? S/He that has ears to hear, let him/her hear. Let's look at that verse in context:

John 14:
24. "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25. "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26. "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
27. "Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28. "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
29. "And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe."

In context, Jesus is speaking of His ascension to the Father after His death and resurrection. He says these words, however, while still in the earthly body He assumed when "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). At that time, He had taken on "the form of a servant" and had come "in the likeness of men," all before He had gone to the cross (Phil. 2:7-8). Prior to that, He was "in the form of God...equal with God" (Phil. 2:6), but He "made Himself of no reputation" and "humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross." We are then told, "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:9-10).

So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I." Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature. In that state, Jesus prayed in the Garden before His crucifixion, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). When He became flesh He temporarily set aside that glory and position equal with the Father and came to earth in total submission to His Father. However, when He went back to the Father, He was "highly exalted" and regained that glory and position, so, He tells His disciples, "You should rejoice that I go to My Father." Of course, at that time, the disciples didn't understand any of that; they didn't even understand why He had to lay down His life and not set up His earthly kingdom right then. Today, we have the whole, big picture and can understand it all, if we choose to.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

The point is that they'd have more than ONE man (Jesus) to speak against.

-----ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?

What? "...beat God Almighty in fighting"? What "fighting"???? Where does that thought come from? I think it is the Muslim mindset.

I m asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u belive in that story ???

Yes, Jesus makes a simple statement there in John 14:28, and Christians believe it, IN ITS CONTEXT....... and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him , it's the order of father to speak out.....thus , in ur Bible , it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????

So, while in His humbled state in the form of a servant/slave, Jesus could well say that "My Father is greater than I."

----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????

.....Greater in terms of position and glory (at that time), but NOT in terms of essence, substance, or nature.

And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Sorry to interrupt - I'd like to address this point:

ok , take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed ?

Evidence that Jesus did exist is not hard to find. Aside from the NT, he's mentioned in the works of Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger. None of these guys were followers of Jesus, and Pliny actively persecuted Christians. Why would they lie?

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

---ok, take example of Jesus (p) only ....what proof do u have except ur holy book that he ever existed?

What? Muslims don't deny Jesus' existence. Why are YOU? Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here? Even if the Quran is not the word of God, the fact that it mentions Jesus, even as just a prophet, should be enough to tell you He existed, unless the whole book is a work of fiction.

I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???

Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?

----huh .........Jesus (p) repeatedly told u it's the Father who sent him, it's the order of father to speak out.....thus, in ur Bible, it's clear that God is more powerful than Jesus (p) .....ALWAYS.......God is always giving orders ......Jesus (p) never oredered God to do anything or did he ?????

When Jesus left heaven and humbled Himself (lowered Himself) and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, He was in perfect and total submission to the will of His Father. He came to do the Father's will, to say what the Father wanted Him to say, to do what the Father wanted Him to do, and He said that He said and did only what the Father wanted Him to. It is not a matter of POWER, but a matter of submission and humility. Of course, in that situation, He is not ordering the Father around, nor is He ever. No member of the Godhead "orders" another; they are in perfect harmony. There are no power struggles. You're using human reasoning to even come up with such a question.

----is there any verse in Bible -----My son is greater than I ????

No, of course not. In essence, substance and nature, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal. They are the ONE God. The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position in order to take on flesh and die for our sins.

And who created these complicated explanations ......Jesus (p) ?????

Who created God? God is "complicated" because He is God. It is amazing that He lets us know as much as He does, concerning His nature, etc. For us to really understand God is like two ants talking to each other and explaining humans. If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Salaam/ peace ;

Grace Seeker:
it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.

---well , I guess , Jews would love to say same or more offensive things about Jesus (p) .

Indeed the Jews on this board would agree with you in making that statement.

Grace Seeker:
But as to the Qur'an being a true revelation from God, I actually find the idea less credible now than before I first visited LI.

That’s funny ….care to explain a little more ?

Before I came here, I knew enough about Islam to have respect for it, it's people, and those things that they respected including Mohammad (pbuh) and its scriptures, the Qur'an. Well, I try to maintain that respect. But when I find that people discount the New Testamanet for some of the reasons I see expressed here -- that Paul supposedly wrote it, that what we have are people quoting Jesus not Jesus' own writings, that they believe it was originally written in Greek, or because there are available today multiple copies in English that don't all say the same thing -- then I have to say that they are not using good science nor good logic in formulating their objections to it. Those views are simply not true and no unbiased atheistic historian would make those claims, they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament. And then it is pointed out how the Qur'an testifies against the New Testament, and given what I find to be a solidly credible New Testament, if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention. Next I find the way that Islamic scholars act like priests preserving their rituals to be parralleled only in the worst of some of what Christianity has done. For example, the idea of music being banned is something that I see Muhammad showed great latitude on, and there are some scholars that seem to say the same as I on this issue, but their voices are drowned out by many others. And when these things are explained to me, I don't get it. What I do get is that it is believed that Allah was against it and so we Muslims are to be against it to. I get that concept, but I don't find it as supported by the actual scriptures as people say that it is, and thus I think that what is being upheld is not revealed truth, but mankind's traditional interpretation of that truth.

Surely, there are plenty of places in Christianity where this last point could be levelled against Christianity as well as against Islam and most religions. But I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

The more I read and hear talk, the more it looks to me like Muhammad tried to do the best he could to share what he must have picked up in his travels from Jews and Christians and then he coaleased them into some other sort of theology, much like Joseph Smith invented Mormonism. In both cases we have the private revelation that when made public comes tantilziingly close, but not identical to previous revelations. In order to explain the differences, both casts the original revelations as corrupted which their new revelation sets right. There is not explanation of as to how or why the original revelation is corrupted. And indeed in the first telling of these new revelations there is no mentioning of that corruption. The allleged corruption is only mentioned later when the new revelations are questioned or come under attack.

It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand. If he had those things, I expect he might have accomplished even more than he did. He might have even received messages from God initially that awakened him from the pagan culture that he was raised in to an awareness of God and a desire to serve him. But it appears to me that he went off on his own, without the continued direction of the Holy Spirit. And the result is just plain bad theology. Close to the truth, but not the real truth, and that is why I can never accept it as being from God.

Phil123
But when it comes to Jesus being the Son of the living God, there can be no compromise

Yes , u r right , there is no compromise....to u , denying this is blasphemy , to us uttering this is blasphemy.

This is something that we all appear to agree on.

Christians are making simple statement of Jesus (p) very complicated. Jesus ( p) openly declared that "My Father is greater than I." but Christians are denying to accept this simple truth.

Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus. Indeed, we affirm that Jesus submitted himself fully to the Father. What we deny is that the Father and the Son are not of one essence. We do not deny that there are distinctions between the three persons, nor do claim that there is a balance of economy between the three persons. We only deny that these three persons are more than one divine being.

May be , when Christian will be ready to accept the simple matter as simple & won’t make the matters complicated , then the differences between Muslims & Christians will be reduced.

Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess.


Really , sometimes it’s so hard to visit this forum

May be , we should visit halal fun only for the time being

Verse of the day :


And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Qur'ân) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him ), then produce a Sûrah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allâh, if you are truthful.



But if you do it not, and you can never do it, then fear the Fire (Hell) whose fuel is men and stones, prepared for the disbelievers ( 2: 23-24)

[/quote]

We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God, the Word made flesh who has dwelt among us. He has made God known to us.

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven." (Matthew 10:32-33)

 

[Redeemed]

I agree whole-heartedly with both of the above. I will go even further, though, to say this, with all due respect for all Muslims on this board and everywhere:

If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observers, each side presenting evidences and arguments, I think the overwhelming weight of the evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.

I think the main reason Muslims view what the Bible says as "distorted" is that it contradicts what they have initially accepted as the truth of Islam and the Quran. Obviously, if Muslims believed the Bible first, that it is true and accurate in all that it relates, they would have a problem when they came to the Quran, which has a totally different message, when it comes to the nature of God and how a person gets to heaven (the Trinity and the Atonement). But since the Bible came first, it seems to me anyone really wanting to know the truth would have to first be shown how the first revelation is distorted BEFORE even looking at the later revelation. The problem with that is there is no proof of distortion. No one can show what the Bible said before the alleged distortion occurred, nor how it occurred, nor when it occurred, or that it occurred.

God is a God of TRUTH. Satan is the father of lies. With two diametrically opposed holy books saying opposite things as being the Word of God, they can't both be right in those two crucial areas, the nature of God and the way a person gets to heaven. They might both be wrong, but they can't both be right. If ONE is true, the other is a lie. If God is the author of one, Satan is the author of the other. Christians and Muslims each believe their respective holy book is the TRUTH authored by God (in the ultimate sense). The conclusion is inescapable that they also believe that the other's "holy book" is UNTRUE and the work of Satan.

In addition the lack of evidence of the Bible's message being distorted, the Bible itself is a work that flows in its theme across multiple human authors (prophets, apostles, etc.) and over thousands of year, showing a consistency of plan and purpose, and showing the divine hand of God throughout. The O.T. is fulfilled in the N.T., which concludes with a warning against anyone adding to it. All the truth of the N.T. is for all people and for all time and needs no new revelation from any new prophets. All the prophecies concerning Christ in the O.T. find their fulfillment in the Christ of the N.T. The N.T. concludes with a vision of the end of this earth and the coming of a new heavens and a new earth and eternity. The Quran, on the other hand, serves no purpose which is consistent with O.T. and N.T. There just is NO indication that the God of the O.T. and N.T. is the same as Allah and giving additional revelation which becomes the Quran. Where and why would it fit into the N.T. picture which covers everything all the way to eternity? Again, the message of the N.T. was for all people ("go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" includes Jew and Gentile---everyone) for all time.

What I said in another thread is quotable here: Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) has supposedly ended up in Islam. But Islam is a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not consistent with O.T. and N.T., not right, and just plain not of God. And it doesn't even make sense.

Both Christians and Muslims have a promise, but my preference is to be a Christian. It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham and so is Isaac. Those dudes are brothers. And the whole world is caught up in a family feud. Ishmael has a promise to be a powerful nation which is self-sufficient and Isaac has the seed of promise. The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free. One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death. One represents the law and trying to please God with works and the other does it by faith that works through love and works are not the focus. Whom the Son has set free is freed in deed. They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free. I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum. I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with. It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. It would be better for them if they never heard the truth than to resist it so adamantly. I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news. I know some people that have been starting churches among nominal Muslims. I think most of the Muslims on this forum are hardened to the gospel. The god of this world has blinded their eyes. I think I am going to back off for a while unless God shows me not to. All their arguments against Christianity make no sense and cannot be backed up.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;



Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.





I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?

Originally Posted by Muslim Woman



I'm asking about Prophet Jacob's (p) fighting with God Almighty......don't u believe in that story ???


Phil12123 : Sure, but what does that story have to do with anything we were talking about?

--because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .

If somehow we could tell the ants a few things about us, they still wouldn't really have the capacity to know much, would they?

--we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .

Those views are simply not true……. they are generated by a predisposition against the New Testament….. if the Qur'an really is so solidly disputing the New Testament as being corrupted, that alone proves its falsehood or invention…..

--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(




It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .

I find that it is the case not just with small issues such as music, but big things such as the Islamic view of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians.

---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.

Christians do not deny that the Father is greater than Jesus

---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.

Or maybe Muslims will quit projecting complications into our beliefs that we ourselves do not profess

---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ? :rollseyes

We do not need to produce more Surahs. We already have the revelation of the incarnate God

---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




Verse of the day—


Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

"I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

(none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

( 38: 65 )

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. ...... The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side which is from the slave girl Hagar. .

So , u don't respect Prophet Ishmael (p) because his mom was a slave ? even if it's true that Mother Hagar (ra) was a slave , so what ?

U are denying the fact that she was the honourable wife of a blessed Prophet (p).



Ur Bible tells u that if a man's First born son is from his wife whom he dislikes , it won't change the status of first born.

They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free......One can serve God in freedom the other cannot therefore they are under the law which brings death

LOL , u believe , if mom was a slave , it means son has no right to be a Prophet (p) ? Ur holy book says so ???

They do not believe in the Son of God that is why they cannot be free.

We do not believe in the Son of God that is why , God Willing , on the last day , we will be free :statisfie

I pray to God that we can reach our Muslim brothers on this forum.

I pray to God that we can reach our Chrisitian brothers & Sisters on this forum & elsewhere

I cannot understand how they can be so tenacious in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.

--same here

I don't understand how Christians can be so tenacious ( errr...don't know the meaning...can guess ) in the light of all the truth they have been presented with.

It is written, however, that they would be against every man and every man against them. That is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

--pl. explain

I think it would be better if we go to Turkey, Pakistan or some other Arab Muslim nation that haven’t heard the good news.

--don't u worry ....Chrisitians Missionaries have flooded the Muslim Countries .




IN my country , we have a lot of Christians missionareies / NGO's etc. U will be happy to know that they are trying their best to spread the good news .


They are telling Muslims that on the last day , because of Jesus (p) , no Christians will get any punishment . Sis Jayda told me that it's not correct that no Chrisitians will get punishment. See , missionaries are even telling lies....so , stop worrying & cheer up

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam/ peace ;



Phil12123: Have you jumped over and joined the atheists here?


---may God bless me with death before joining Atheists in faith , Ameen.



I asked this because Grace Seeker wrote : it looks like an act of blind belief in the words of one man who claims he heard God send him a message through an angel.




So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?









--because u wrote : If we were to present the case for Christianity and the case for Islam before a jury of neutral observer………………evidence would favor the validity of Christianity over Islam.


That’s why I asked u to tell the story of Prophet Jacob (p) to a non-Muslim & non-Christian . A human being had a fight with God Almighty & who was the winner ???? Nope , God was not the winner ……….God , the most powerful , our Creator lost the fight .





I want to hear from a neutral person who’s belief s/he finds more logical …….God can come here , fight with His own creation & was a looser or Muslims are more credible that it’s impossible --- God fought & was beaten.






Phil12123 : The Father never takes a position lower than the Son; He doesn't need to. But the Son needed to take a lower position ……..



------still u deny what Jesus (p) repeatedly told u : "My Father is greater than I." Son was NOT equal to father ………he needed to take a lower position …..u r saying this but not accepting the main truth that , indeed God is greater than all.



In ur Bible , Father was always in a superior position -- except the case of Jacob (p) .









--we are not Creator of ants & on the last day , we won’t judge ants. But , God will judge us on the basis of this fact that if we shared oneness of God with someone else or not ?





So , Pl. be very careful & don’t associate partner with God…..ur holy book , all the blessed Prophets ( pbut ) including Jesus (p) warned u against shirk / blasphemy.




Grace Seeker : It's too bad that Muhammad was illiterate and that he did not have regular counsel from a competent priest with a Bible in hand



---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .







--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:






u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(




It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .






---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.







---- that’s great …..pl. think more about why & how Father is greater than Jesus (p) .





God Willing , in future , u won’t give importance on extremely complicated explanations & mysteries any more : ) & accept the simple truth that God is greater than Jesus (p) ------ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.







---so , Trinity is no more a mystery ? :rollseyes








---ummm , Bible is revelation of ‘’ incarnate ‘’ God but not from God Almighty who was always God but never a human being ?




Verse of the day—


Say (O Muhammad ( p ):

"I am only a warner and there is no Ilâh (god) except God

(none has the right to be worshipped but God ) the One, the Irresistible

( 38: 65 )

But if you could become an ant, you would be able to communicate with them. That is much like the idea of Jesus God's word in the flesh. You are starting to get it, I think?:? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :? :?

 

[Grace Seeker]

So , I want to know , why Christians belief is not a blind faith ? Except some very complicated explanations invented by …..God knows whom ……..what proof do u have that Jesus (p) is God ?

"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." (John 5:18) This is not in the sense that humans call God Father, because the Jews would not have sought to kill him for that. This is in the sense that Jesus was making himself God. And he does so to such an extent that he claims for himself that which is true of no man, nor even any creature including angels, but can only be true of God: "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself." (John 5:26)

As Jesus said, "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?" (John 5:44)

And Jesus, speaking to the Pharisees, also said: "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world." (John 8:23) What world do you suppose Jesus is claiming that he is from? Surely it is a reference to heaven. What human being can claim to be from heaven? Perhaps we will one day go to heaven, but only God and God's angels can claim to be from heaven. Are you going to claim that Jesus was nothing more than an angel? Whatever the case, Jesus is from a different world than other humans. And please don't say any nonsesne about Jesus' use of the turn "Son of God" was not a claim to divinity, the Jews new that it was exactly that, that was the reason they wanted to have him put to death, see John 19:6-7, especially their statement to Pilate-- "he must die because he claimed to be the Son of God."

You want it spelled out in simple terms like: "I am God." Well, that is exactly what John 8:58 is: "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am'." This is Jesus taking the divine name of God and applying it to himself. And those who speak the language of Jesus indeed clearly understood it that way, for they picked up stones to stone him.

Jesus can also be seen to make divine claims for himself repeatedly, by his actions and by the response to his words from others: see Luke 5:17-25; John 10:30-33; Matthew 26:63-65; Mark 14:61-64; Luke 22:69-71. Only the blind will not recognize his claims for what they are. The Jews were so prejuidiced by their preconceived (but wrong) beliefs as to what to expect from the Messiah, that they could not recognize Jesus for who he really was. Yet even they recognized who he claimed to be.

In addition to these words from Jesus' mouth; there is the testimony of his most initimate companions. And there is the testimony of the Holy Spirit in my own life. That is all the proof that I need.

---Praise be to God ….. no human being taught Muhammed (p) but God Almighty through His angel .

My point being that I don't believe that this actually happened.

……..except for Muhammad himself saying so, what proof do u have that Muhammad (p) was taught by God?

--- huh ……only few days back , I posted from a Christian ( & u confirmed me that it was a Christian site ) that warned Christians from bogus Bible. But , when Quran / Muslims tell that today’ s Bible is corrupted ….Christians object ….why ? :blind:

u should ask Bible publishers first NOT to warn readers from bogus bible +o(

It’s a bit funny that Bible publishers are admitting the fact that other Bibles are corrupted but we Muslims have no right to say so .

You seem to confuse, as I mentioned above, the difference between admitting that there are imperfections in Bibles today and saying that the New Testament itself was corrupted. You also vastly overstate the nature of any corruption that actually does exist today. Again, you are blinded by the propaganda you have been fed all of your life. Non-Christian scholars will testify to the reliability of the Christian New Testament as the most well documented of all ancient documents from the Greco-Roman period or before.

---Muslims have many faults but praise be to God only , we are not committing blasphemy----the most major sin in Judaism , Christianity & Islam.

Nor are Christians.

Luke 11
29As the crowds increased, Jesus said, "This is a wicked generation. It asks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah. 30For as Jonah was a sign to the Ninevites, so also will the Son of Man be to this generation. 31The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. 32The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.

Jesus was greater than a king. Jesus was greater than a prophet. Because Jesus was more than either prophet or king. Jesus was and is God; God who came and dwelled incarnate among us. This is ascribing no partner to God. I am saying that it is Allah himself that walked on earth among us. You may call it shirk, but it is truer than any words ever spoken by the one you call a prophet.

This thread was written as a warning to non-Muslims. But you need to hear that there is another warning to be considered. These are the words of one you claim to honor:

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36)