Does God change his mind?

yes the god of the bible changes its mind.

I imagine many have problems with this.

How can a perfect being change its mind?
That would imply a mistake and thus imperfection.
 
Ranma, It's been a while since I opened my Bible. Is there any cast iron examples of Changing the Mind in the Bible after negotiations with a human, prophet or otherwise?

I'm confident there is, but I wondered if there was anything as clear cut as the nights journey's example.

BTW, Changing the mind isnt always making a mistake. It's more like God saying "Awwh! Go on then! Lets make it what you say....I'm not that fussed" It would only be a mistake if he was to say something like a rock could talk or the sun landed in a muddy pool,or the world was made in 6 days. Something like that
 
i don't follow any holy books so i can't address this specifically.
but if there were records that god had changed his mind - what would it mean to atheists - "proof" that he doesn't exist? that he isn't perfect? i don't understand the logic here. does perfection mean you can never change your mind, as a result of changes going on elsewhere? you make up your mind and even tho circumstances may change completely, you stick to it. this sounds more like a description of a neurotic to me.
so what point is the OP trying to make here?
 
snakelegs said:
i don't follow any holy books so i can't address this specifically.
but if there were records that god had changed his mind - what would it mean to atheists - "proof" that he doesn't exist? that he isn't perfect? i don't understand the logic here. does perfection mean you can never change your mind, as a result of changes going on elsewhere? you make up your mind and even tho circumstances may change completely, you stick to it. this sounds more like a description of a neurotic to me.
so what point is the OP trying to make here?
Click to expand...

Yah, agree. God can change his mind. He can In My opinion make mistakes.
I mean ...why create Belgium?
 
You can also connect this to the concept of free will in human beings. God sometimes created circumstances in which a person had to come to their own conclusion through free will, and often this person had to be pushed a little, by way of a divine threat usually. That doesn't mean God made an empty threat, it simply means God knew the individual would make the right choice if faced with the possibility of God's anger. Sort of like a parent's interaction with a child.
 
barney said:
Yah, agree. God can change his mind. He can In My opinion make mistakes.
I mean ...why create Belgium?
Click to expand...

Oh, are you a separatists who wants the Flemish people to be free of the financial burdon of supporting the wallons socially?

Belgium is a country with very low nationalistic sentiment. And personally I wan't nothing to do with sentiments as nationalism and patriotism, so you defenitly won't get to me that way :p
 
Last edited:
ranma1/2 said:
How can a perfect being change its mind?
That would imply a mistake and thus imperfection.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Have you hear the story of Jonah and the whale? Who hasn't, right. After he was spit up on the shore, he took God's message to Nineveh. He walked the streets telling them that God would destroy their city in forty days because it had become wicked. But, when the King and people of Nineveh heard Jonah they believed him, and repented for their sins. God then decided not to destroy the city. (summary of Jonah 3:1-10)

Does that mean that God made a mistake in wanting to destroy Ninevah? No, He's God, He knew exactly what would happen, but if he hadn't made the threat, Nineveh would never have repented. We can have a hard time understanding the will of God, because His perception is so different from ours.

As an aside. It is a Christian belief that God exists outside of time. Do Muslims share that view of God?
 
OMG! Sorry! I just assummed there wasnt any Belgians around! :D

I actually picked Belgium at random, and really like the place!

Umm OK....Wasps. Wasps were a mistake!

I'll get a ruddy wasp answering now!
 
Keltoi said:
Christians, and Muslims I assume, believe that God is aware of past, present, and future. If God "changes" a course of action, it is because that was His course of action to begin with. Human beings have free will, and as Glo eluded, God is capable of reward and punishment. However, He does not simply "change His mind", but is aware of the cause and effect of events.
Click to expand...

If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed. Since God changed his mind, he has false knowledge. Simple refutation.

Also, an omniscient God is incompatible with human free will. It's called the "omniscience paradox."

http://www.galilean-library.org/taylor.html

For a short summary, this is good:

Using the current popular definition of free will: an agent has free will with respect to action X if that agent had the ability to do otherwise than X.

1) Assume God exists.
2) If God exists, He is necessarily omniscient.
3) Assume God has free will.
4) For any possible act X, either it's true that God will do X or it's true that God will not do X.

5a) If it's true that God will do X, then God knows He will do X.
6a) If God knows He will do X, he cannot do otherwise than X. (Proof: If God knows He will do X, then to not do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

5b) If it's true that God will not do X, then God knows He will not do X.
6b) If God knows He will not do X, he cannot do X. (Proof: If God knows He will not do X, then to do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

7) Either way, God does not have free will with respect to X.
8) Hence, either God does not exist, or he does not have free will.

Also, I do not think eternal hellfire is characteristic of a benevolent deity :rollseyes
 
barney said:
Actually...does it matter if god changes his mind?

He's god so it's not like he's answerable to anyone!
Click to expand...

It doesnt matter if God is not omniscient. I have exposed a contradiction in the "buy bull" and I'm still waiting for a fundie to resolve this quagmire.
 
Not necessarily. Have you hear the story of Jonah and the whale? Who hasn't, right. After he was spit up on the shore, he took God's message to Nineveh. He walked the streets telling them that God would destroy their city in forty days because it had become wicked. But, when the King and people of Nineveh heard Jonah they believed him, and repented for their sins. God then decided not to destroy the city. (summary of Jonah 3:1-10)

Does that mean that God made a mistake in wanting to destroy Ninevah? No, He's God, He knew exactly what would happen, but if he hadn't made the threat, Nineveh would never have repented. We can have a hard time understanding the will of God, because His perception is so different from ours.

As an aside. It is a Christian belief that God exists outside of time. Do Muslims share that view of God?
Click to expand...

Jonah? You mean the Jonah that was swallowed by a big fished and meditated and prayed in the fish's stomach?? LMAO!

Come back to debate when you are willing to use common sense, not poorly written fairytales.
 
Philosopher said:
If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed.
Click to expand...

God is outside of time. Right now, I'm eating popcorn. God knew, from the day I was born that I would be eating popcorn at this exact moment, but I still made the choice. God didn't decide I would eat popcorn, He just knew what choice I was going to make.
 
August said:
I'd say giving people who ignore the laws of God the same reward as the faithful would be somewhat less benevolent.
Click to expand...

Tell me that if you end up in the Islamic hellfire :rollseyes

Ever heard of the Problem of Evil? Maybe you need to do more research and see why you God does not exist (at least in terms of common sense).
 
August said:
God is outside of time. Right now, I'm eating popcorn. God knew, from the day I was born that I would be eating popcorn at this exact moment, but I still made the choice. God didn't decide I would eat popcorn, He just knew what choice I was going to make.
Click to expand...

Did you read my previous posts?? Human free and an omniscient God are INCOMPATIBLE. Let me summarize the problem:

1.) A being with free will, given two options, can freely choose between A and B.
2.) God is omniscient.
3.) God knows I will choose A.
4.) God cannot be wrong since an omniscient God cannot have false knowledge.
5.) From (3.) and (4.), I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6.) From (1.) and (5.), omniscience and human free will are mutually exclusive.

* Words italicized for emphasis.
 
Philosopher said:
Did you read my previous posts?? Human free and an omniscient God are INCOMPATIBLE. Let me summarize the problem:

1.) A being with free will, given two options, can freely choose between A and B.
2.) God is omniscient.
3.) God knows I will choose A.
4.) God cannot be wrong since an omniscient God cannot have false knowledge.
5.) From (3.) and (4.), I will choose A and cannot choose B.
6.) From (1.) and (5.), omniscience and human free will are mutually exclusive.

* Words italicized for emphasis.
Click to expand...

The fact that God is aware of what choice you will make doesn't mean free will wasn't at play on the human level. As God lives outside of time, He is already aware of what choice you made, but free will determined that choice.
 
Philosopher said:
If God is omniscient, he knows what will happen in the future. Hence, ALL events are fixed. Since God changed his mind, he has false knowledge. Simple refutation.

Also, an omniscient God is incompatible with human free will. It's called the "omniscience paradox."

http://www.galilean-library.org/taylor.html

For a short summary, this is good:

Using the current popular definition of free will: an agent has free will with respect to action X if that agent had the ability to do otherwise than X.

1) Assume God exists.
2) If God exists, He is necessarily omniscient.
3) Assume God has free will.
4) For any possible act X, either it's true that God will do X or it's true that God will not do X.

5a) If it's true that God will do X, then God knows He will do X.
6a) If God knows He will do X, he cannot do otherwise than X. (Proof: If God knows He will do X, then to not do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

5b) If it's true that God will not do X, then God knows He will not do X.
6b) If God knows He will not do X, he cannot do X. (Proof: If God knows He will not do X, then to do X would entail that God was wrong. But God is necessarily omniscient, so He can't be wrong.)

7) Either way, God does not have free will with respect to X.
8) Hence, either God does not exist, or he does not have free will.

Also, I do not think eternal hellfire is characteristic of a benevolent deity :rollseyes
Click to expand...

Bah! I was going to use that one!

SULK!
 
:sl:

In Islam we believe Allah dont change His mind, everything from beginning already predestined till the end.

If God change His mind it clearly contradict His own attribute--All knowing.

Atheist always ask that "Why Allah..." things, i honestly think this question is valid and i think we can get clearer view about "Why Allah..." question if we realize and view this world as testing ground..it's temporary..

Human are not created to live in this world...but human must prove his worth to live forever in heaven.

By Allah mercy he already told us how to win this game and lose it.

so about that Night Journey it's a bless also a test to Muhammad(pbuh)...


Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345:

Narrated Abu Dhar:

Allah's Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel answered: 'Gabriel.' He asked, 'Is there anyone with you?' Gabriel replied, 'Yes, Muhammad I is with me.' He asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' He replied, 'He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.'

Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, 'Open (the gate).' The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, "When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' The Prophet asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris." The Prophet added, "I passed by Moses and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Moses.' Then I passed by Jesus and he said, 'Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.' I asked, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.

Then I passed by Abraham and he said, 'Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.' I asked Gabriel, 'Who is he?' Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens." Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.' Then Gabriel took me till we '' reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk."


Why Allah destined this to happen?
1-Reflection that even though Allah is very strict and in His command, but Allah also Just and have mercy to all His creation.

[002:286] On no soul doth God Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

Good things are test, are we grateful? are we use it to do good or mischief..
Bad thing are test, are we losing hope? or strive to solve it....
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top