See post at:Father, Son and the Holy Ghost
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...trinity-christians-muslims-32.html#post771449
"Views on Atonement for Sin."
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Keltoi
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The most important figure? No. Paul was important in that he traveled to many different areas of the world bringing the Gospel. Paul is also important because of his writing about the Holy Spirit, which he stated was a part of every human being upon conversion, leading to the Trinity concept. However, his contributions, while quite important, do not make him the most important figure in the Bible. His works make up a large portion of the New Testament because of his involvement in spreading the Word of Christ to Gentiles.
Perhaps, you could comment on:
Matthew 10: 5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into [any] way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
and
Matthew 15:22-24 And behold, a Canaanitish woman came out from those borders, and cried, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a demon. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Keltoi
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First of all, your quotes are incomplete.
And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman from the region came out and cried, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely possessed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not fair to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master's table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly. (Matthew 15:21-28)
Just for clarification, Christ never refused to heal those of faith, even Gentiles.
Now to the point at hand. The New Testament definitely works on a timeline. First the Children of Israel, then the Gentiles. Jesus also told His disciples....
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations...." (Matthew 28:18,19)
Peter also refers to the issue shortly after Christ's death and Resurrection...
"You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant which God gave to your fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your posterity shall all the families of the earth be blessed.' God, having raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you in turning every one of you from your wickedness." (Acts 3:25,26)
Notice he states that God sent Christ to Israel "first".
So we are talking about a timeline of events, as the New Testament clearly points to the fact that the disciples of Christ were meant to spread the Gospel among the Gentiles.
Good points. Jesus "came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name" (John 1:11-12). He was/is the Messiah, sent initially to the Jews only, but by and large "His own" (the Jewish people as a whole) rejected Him and crucified Him. But all of His disciples were Jewish, as He was raised, and "to them He gave the right to become children of God."
But in His discourse where He says He is the good shepherd that lays down His life for the sheep (John 10), He also says, verse 16 --- "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." The "other sheep" are the Samaritans and the Gentiles that would hear His voice through the preaching of the Gospel by those whom He sent out, such as Peter (Acts 8 and 10).
Likewise, Paul preached to the Jews first and when they rejected the Gospel, he would preach to the Gentiles:
Acts 13:
42. And when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.
43. Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44. And the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.
45. But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul.
46. Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
47. "For so the Lord has commanded us: 'have set you to be a light to the Gentiles, that you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.' ''
48. Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
49. And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region.
50. But the Jews stirred up the devout and prominent women and the chief men of the city, raised up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them from their region.
51. But they shook off the dust from their feet against them, and came to Iconium.
52. And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
By the way, notice how Paul and Barnabas reacted to the persecution against them --- v. 51 says they shook off the dust from their feet against them and moved on, to Iconium. No sword. No fighting. No killing. Just move on. All in obedience to what Jesus told His original disciples in Matt. 10:14 --- "And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet." There is no record of anyone being killed by Christians going out and preaching the Gospel. The message is one of LIFE, eternal life, not... believe our new religion or we kill you. Not even in self-defense. Just shake the dust off and move on.
Redeemed
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I was waiting for the punch line. It is Jesus who is the most important figure in the Bible. Paul considered himself the least and the cheif of sinners.
Redeemed
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I was waiting for the punch line. It is Jesus who is the most important figure in the Bible. Paul considered himself the least and the cheif of sinners.
Curaezipirid
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It is a foolish thing for a Muslim to try to repudiate any Biblical text only because it is not specifically directed to a Muslim.
But surely the verse "quoted", whether real or not of a prophets mouth, had the exact right same meaning as Qur'an, but of an earlier age of men, in which different formulation of words had been what men needed
Also from all that I read in the ten or so posts above: Paul is significant for many in that his story is an archetype which has a larger quantity of persons able to adhere to for self knowledge than most of the apostles
Also very frankly, it is really good to observe here Muslims engaging in real dialogue about the meaning in Biblical text. There have always been Muslims who read, knew, and undertook self study in Torah and the New Testament, because such enables far better comprehension of Qur'an. So when any Muslim forum debases such work by only criticising the obvious flaws in the keeping of the textual references of Torah and Gospel, without also observing the truth within those texts still existing, then all Islam loses to the Christian power base, precisely because many Christians read Qur'an, and only are not liking to tell about how fully under its influence all Christendom always has been.
Curaezipirid
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The point that needs to be made in the interest of all life on Earth at this time, for Peace, is very real. But it need not be made by using a Christian teaching to oppose the Islamic instruction in Jihad and the certain death of non-believers.
In fact, what all in Islam need to accomodate for the best outcomes in this time, is that when we die, we are able to facilitate imposing upon the non-believers that they accept the Angel of Death in his utmost retribution. That is one way of reading every Qur'anic reference to war and Jihad and the death of the non-believers. Basically that we who believe must be accountible to acquiting our own body in death by holding every non-believer into fully acquitting their body also. Other wise the non-believers try to utilise sihr to escape death, and then the penalty against believers becomes more extensive.
It is true that the Christian message is inimical. Jesus only once made any direction to his disciples as to their own death, and that was immediately after he faced satan. Only in that context Isa has instructed us all to obey him in following him into death so as we may follow him also in life.
Any Muslim who can not recognise that being the basis of Christianity is a poor fool, or only poorly educated in Islam.
Similarly all Christians who slip over the instruction to follow Jesus in death so as to follow him in life, are so far in the shade of Allah as that any Muslim can dutifully ignore their arguments with us as only cause of their own death in Isa.
How many of us in this world are not often having to face the shaytan? How few can afford such life long protection?
Alaykumuassalam
Likewise - It is Allah who is the most important Being in the Quran. Muhammad considered himself the Servant and Messenger of Allah.
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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When those of us who profess to be Muslim post, what we believe to be a teaching of Islam, let us remember to give a specific source from the Qur'an or Ahadith. Otherwise let us remember to say it is our personal opinion and may not be a valid teaching of Islam. We are all capable of error. Astragfirullah
as Humans we all have opinions, but we must refrain from leading others to believe that our opinions are true Islamic beliefs, unless we can back it up with valid Islamic sources.
Also please refrain from the using of any sectarian adjectives we are Muslims and no adjectives are valid there is only one Ummah.
vpb
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do you think it's the same if I say "MutafaMC is trying to misguide me", and "some people are trying to misguide me" ??
I hope you can see the difference here.
so Allah is telling us exactly the people who try to do this (the christians and jews), whereas if Bible quotes something the same , it advises chritians in general. General statement and specific statement are not the same.
Redeemed
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That is a fair comparsion Allah
/Jesus and Paul / Muhammad
Curaezipirid
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you are making an important point about general statments as to the wrongs committed in the world, being a very different thing to specific statements about wrongs committed
Allah also explains to us clearly that because Jews and Christians both preach that we must have faith in One God, there is no need to convert them to Islam.
Of course I can not possibly believe that you might mean the same in refering to noticing a sin in an individual, and refering to that same sin in "some people". If you demand punative measure against just "some people" you can have no guarantee of whom is really paying the punishment.
The reason I wrote it is foolish for a Muslim to overtly repudiate the Torah, on a premise that while Qur'an says "Oh Muslims", that Torah is not so directly pertaining to a Muslim, is because when Torah was made there was not such a definition as a Muslim. So if you try to claim that Torah has no application to any Muslim on the grounds that it is not directed towards Muslim needs specifically, then you are denying that it belongs in the same tradition even as Islam, and so are then you are not being welcoming of Jews and Christians conversions into Islam.
I know that as Muslims we are not to bother with the prejudices of one sect against another from earlier ages of the Religions of man, but we must also take care not to hold ourselves as Muslims as though above the Jews and Christians in their belief also in One God.
vpb
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hah, have u asked chrisitans what is the "one god" they believe in??
Allah told us in the Qur'an that if Christians and Jews do good deeds, believe in one God (the proper way as muslims do), and believe in the day of judgmeent .... they go to heaven.
but the "One God" that chrisitians believe is not the same as the One God we believe in.
Tawheed = Oneness of Allah
Kitab At-Tawheed Explained
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/44887-kitaab-tawheed-explained.html
Fundamentals of Tawheed (Monotheism)
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/44928-fundamentals-tawheed-islamic-monotheism.html
What is Tawheed
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-beliefs/44656-what-tawheed.html
Redeemed
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vpb
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I know what you're saying . I totally understand. but the Qur'an is revealed in such a way that people can understand. So that's why Allah swt uses the name "christians and jews", to tell (to address) them that if you believe in Allah (as you are supposed to, without joining partnership to Allah and Muhammed is the last messenger, and Qur'an is the last book......etc.etc. you will go to heaven.
if I say an american said that all german people can become american citizens, we know that they are saying "germans" , bc they want to address to those people that they can become american citizens. It doesn't contradict the fact that germans are not americans.
do u get what I'm saying. Allah swt is just using the term christians, so you know who Allah is addressing to.
vpb
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Tafsir of Ibn Abbas comments the verse :
{ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَارَىٰ وَٱلصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ }
2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Then Allah went on to mention the believers among them, saying: (Lo! Those who believe) in Moses and all the other prophets, these earn their reward from their Lord in Paradise; they shall have no fear perpetually and they shall perpetually not grieve. It is said that this means that no fear will come upon them concerning torment in the future life nor will they grieve about anything they have left behind. And it is also said that this means: they shall have no fear when death is slain and Hell is closed. Then He mentioned those who did not believe in Moses or the other prophets, saying: (and those who are Jews) who deviated from the religion of Moses, (and Christians) those who became Christians (and Sabaeans) a Christian sect whose members shave the middle of their heads, read the Gospel, worship the angels and say: " our hearts have returned (saba'at) unto Allah " , (whoever believeth) from amongst them (in Allah and the Last Day and does right) in that which is between them and their Lord, (surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve).
{ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَٱلَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَٱلنَّصَارَىٰ وَٱلصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِٱللَّهِ وَٱلْيَوْمِ ٱلآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ }
2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Then Allah went on to mention the believers among them, saying: (Lo! Those who believe) in Moses and all the other prophets, these earn their reward from their Lord in Paradise; they shall have no fear perpetually and they shall perpetually not grieve. It is said that this means that no fear will come upon them concerning torment in the future life nor will they grieve about anything they have left behind. And it is also said that this means: they shall have no fear when death is slain and Hell is closed. Then He mentioned those who did not believe in Moses or the other prophets, saying: (and those who are Jews) who deviated from the religion of Moses, (and Christians) those who became Christians (and Sabaeans) a Christian sect whose members shave the middle of their heads, read the Gospel, worship the angels and say: " our hearts have returned (saba'at) unto Allah " , (whoever believeth) from amongst them (in Allah and the Last Day and does right) in that which is between them and their Lord, (surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve).
Redeemed
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As I have mentioned, I asked if our salvation depends on us doing well or that our good tips the scale in our favor with Allah as a Christian and believing in one God the way Muslims do, then, what part is Allah's in our salvation. In other words, we can boast by saying it was my good works that saved me not my depending on Allah giving it to me. But you say that I choose to sin, because I ascribe a partner with God. I submit to you that you do so even more. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahadad along with living right (works trip). Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. You are not hearing from GOD DIRECTLY. YOU HEAR THROUGH A PROPHET. I HAVE BOTH THE PROPHETS, AND I HEAR HIM FOR MYSELF. WHEN BOTH LINE UP, I OBEY OR I TRY AT LEAST. yOU ARE MISSING SOMETHING IMPORTANT, AND THAT IS YOUR ABILITY (GOD GIVEN) TO HEAR FOR YOURSELF!
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vpb
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bro Wodroow has explained how do we get to Jannah in a very good way, try to search on this thread, and you will probably find the summary points.
Yes, you are choosing. Bc for weeks we have been discussing about this issue, and you have seen hundreds of verses and hadiths we have pasted, that show that Allah subhana u we teala is one, and he has no partners, but you still continue to joing partnership to him, saying that one of His prophets Jesus a.s is his son, and that you worship God through him. and we have explained to you that Allah forgives anything apart from shirk (joining partnership), and that if u die with shirk, there is no forgiving. So it's not my fault that you don't choose. and as I can see u never try to find out the truth, from the beggining you have just come up here to put "contradictiioons" within Islam, and try to weaken our beliefs. But Prophet Muhammed saws said that if you would know what we have in our hearts, you would come up with a sword to take it. I have repeated many times, Tawheed of Allah swt is unique, who grabs it, will never leave it, unless Allah swt wants to misguide him.
We have explained the basic of tawheed ot you many times, you still go your way. I don't have a problem with that. that's why it's your choice.
No you don't submit to us. And Islam doesn't tollerate shirk, even the size smaller than of the electron.
your sentence doesn't make sense.
ok i'll paste just a part of hadith since it is very long.
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
.................... Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.'..................
also the main message of Islam is to worship Allah alone and not joing any in partnership. How come Muhammed taught such a message, and you are saying that we join partnership??
this is like saying "loud silence". that's what your saying.
We get the message from a Prophet, but we don't worship Allah through anyone, we worship Allah swt directly, not through Jesus or anyone else. the Shahada contains the second part for Muhammed, to testify that Muhammed is his messenger, the part itself tells you why it is included. bc if u don't believe that Muhammed saws is Allah's messenger, than you have to reject Qur'an and if you reject Qur'an, guess what happens? check the verse 2:62 that we pasted above
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