ranma1/2
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at that point all it is is the illusion of free will.
You could not choose differently.
You are locked into that path.
Does God change his mind?
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at that point all it is is the illusion of free will.
You could not choose differently.
You are locked into that path.
barney
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ARRHAHH!
I just spun round in my chair! A fraction of a second before thinking "Im not going to spin my chair!"
Heh! He diddnt see THAT!
:statisfie
Ha, too funny! But I don't think He's fooled that easily.
glo
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Now, this may be a tricky question for us believers.
In Islam we believe Allah dont change His mind, everything from beginning already predestined till the end.
For the sake of a useful exploration of the subject, it may be nice if the more outspoken members of the non-religious camp (yes, it you I mean!
) could hold back for a while and just see how the discussion develops ... (just a thought ...) :X Otherwise we just end up getting each others' backs up ...
Now then - back to us believers:
If God has predestined everything (as both Muslims and Christians seem to agree on), what is the purpose in intercessory prayer?
Say, I am praying for God to intervene in a particular situation ...
Either my prayer is heard and he intervenes accordingly - in which case the prayer has caused him to change his mind.
Or he was going to intervene anyway - in which case, did I need to pray at all?
Come on guys, I believe that we can make this a really interesting and peaceful debate.
What do I mean, I believe ... I know we can!!!
Peace
vpb
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in Islam, the prayer is never lost. There are three cases when you pray,
your prayer either gets accepted very quick, or it is accepted later, or if not in this world, it will be used as reward in the other world. And having a reward to support u in the afterlife, is better than having your prayer accepted in this world. So Allah swt never loses the prayer (dua) of the muslim. We also gain from praying
Prophet Muhammed (saws) states: Nothing prevents predestination except Dua and nothing stretches the age except righteousness. (Ibn al-Tirmidhi)
Most of the times we do not pray because we think that Allah (swt) has already written our destiny and there is no point asking from Him when He has already decreed our lives. However, this hadith shows that if anything can intercede with our predestination, it is our dua. One of our major dreams in life is to get a great husband or wife who is perfect in every respect. Though most people contend that we are paired in heavens and it might be true, but still we should always ask from Allah (swt) to give us the best spouse who has a great character, piety, shame, beauty or whatever one desires. I have seen it personally that those who have great husbands or wives have prayed hard in the court of Allah (swt).
Making dua is always a win-win situation. If it gets accepted, then Subhanallah, we get whatever we ask for. But even if it does not get accepted, we still get the bliss and the dua gets stored for us to be weighed in our balance in the Hereafter. It is one of those extra extra extra credit points which do not have a lifeline and which always add up to our final grade even if we are in need of them or not.
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Keltoi
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I don't think you fully understand the point. God is outside time, human beings are not. The fact that God already knows what choice you made, doesn't mean free will didn't decide the choice that you made. This goes to the major difference between an Almighty God and a lowly human being.
I think you are considering the alternate universe sort of question...what would happen if the other choice had been made. This doesn't really fit into the equation, because since God is outside time, He is already aware of the choice you will make, even if you are not.
MuhammadRizan
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hew i know this thing will get trickier.in islam we dont do prayers to ask for something..at least not a main reason or sole purpose.
i thing its easier to put it this way.
why muslim do prayers?
1-because Allah command us.
2-to prove our obedient.
3-ask forgiveness.
4-ask blessing and security in this world and hereafter.
so "gimme this,gimme that" is not a main purpose.
only hypocrite praying that way
[030:033] When trouble touches men, they cry to their Lord, turning back to Him in repentance: but when He gives them a taste of Mercy as from Himself, behold, some of them pay part-worship to other god's besides their Lord,
i thing it's not really a smart thing to do if we questioning everything since we don't know what Allah planned for us in the first place..right?
the wisdom behind all this is Allah left us HOPE for the best, never lose it and never quit trying to pray and obey him, that's what Allah love to see and that is the purpose of our existent in the first place.
[051:056] I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me.
it's more than just eat, sleep, drink, watch tv,go to school, have a good job,dating,married, have sex, getting old and die.
sooner or later we are going to die, leaving behind everything we love so much in this world.
hew
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skhalid
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It is believed that whatever decision He makes is not changed..no going back..and as our fate has already been written nothing is going to be erased......
glo
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I understand that Muslims have a greater tendency to pray as a sign of obedience God than Christians do.
in islam we dont do prayers to ask for something..at least not a main reason or sole purpose.
i thing its easier to put it this way.
why muslim do prayers?
1-because Allah command us.
2-to prove our obedient.
3-ask forgiveness.
4-ask blessing and security in this world and hereafter.
so "gimme this,gimme that" is not a main purpose.
only hypocrite praying that way
Something many Christians could learn from, I am sure.
Prayer is about more than just 'asking for stuff'. It is also about expressing one's gratitude, worship, and just being in God's presence - listening rather than asking ...
But Muslims do pray for certain situation too, don't they? At least that is the impression I get when I read posts here. Is that what you would call 'making du'a'?
So, my previous question remains:
I never knew there was no concept of free will in Islam.
You learn something new every day!
Peace
MuhammadRizan
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i just told you..When we know everything is predestined, we will feel helpless without Allah and hoping sooo much that Allah predestined something good for us. it will make our faith stronger and more motivation to do all His command.
Muslim making du'a after prayer,yes! we will ask anything we need in this world and hereafter it's because
we dont know what Allah planned for us yet, we ask an ask without fail and hoping for the best.that is what Allah prefer and love.
[002:153] O ye who believe! seek help with patient perseverance and prayer; for God is with those who patiently persevere.
the point is 'doing' 'sincere' 'hoping'
i think not really that hard to undestand right? since we both have religion, and our religion require faith.
and when faith is strong enough we will 'doing' without complain.that "why god.." things will never being ask again.
about freewill, well, Allah already send his apostle and messenger, his book and tradition,muslim has responsibility to spread the message.
so anybody that already heard about islam should learn about it from muslim,and yea! the choice is accept or reject...but dont worry
muslim are not obligated to kill anyone who reject...we'll leave it to Allah..but we dont have all the time in the universe to think about it...Allah limit the chance only in this world to consider about islam.
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Keltoi said:
What do you mean by “human level?” If God knows your fate before you are even born, that means you WILL abide by that fate, no matter what. Anything otherwise proves God has false knowledge.
The “God lives outside of time” is another weak excuse crafted by Jewish theologians. Such an explanation is meaningless. In fact, time is an essential attribute of God.
No time; no God, but the reverse is not true. That is to say that there is always time whether there is God or not.
http://atheism.about.com/od/whatisgod/a/omniscience.htm
barney said:
LOL yeah it works every time!
August said:
LOL, sure [/sarcasm]. God is too afraid to confront iron chariots:
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; [but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. (Judges 1:19)
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glo said:
No, we have a freedom of choice in our life.
Try checking this link:
http://www.crescentlife.com/articles/islam/choice.htm
Peace.
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That's news to me! Tell that to the apostates who got murdered for leaving Islam :raging:
barney
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Not true Philly.
Whlist I know that religious freedom to think for muslim is banned under pain of death.
A muslim may have freedom to Think in other areas, as long as theyre not transgressing limits.
So it's more of a restriction and in certain areas an outright ban.
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What are you basing that upon? how is time essential to God?
I think you have a biased view of time.
I suspect the following bias:
http://www.islamicboard.com/768192-post13.html
Another thing you got wrong is causality. You say that if something is destined to happen in your life that you no longer have any freedom in it. That is to say that the causal relation between those two is:
"it is destined that you will chose that path => you can only follow that path"
However reality is:
"You chose a certain path => that path is destined for you."
Now I'd bet your thinking: that doesn't add up, because according to religion destiny is set before I make that choice. So how can the latter in two consecutive events cause the former? Well such a causality is only impossible with a time-biased view. But like we said God is independent of time.
the_middle_road
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I've been browsing this forum for a while now and decided I might as well jump in the deep end. So here goes: my first post.
The way I see it, the problem lies with number 3. We are assuming that God knows I will choose A, but we cannot make that assumption because God alone knows what is in His knowledge; He has not disclosed that to us. God knows which choice I will make but what is in His knowledge is either A or B, we do not know which. We cannot go any further with the argument until we know which choice God knows I will choose but we can never know that. The argument would only be valid if we knew that God knew I would choose A, but as I said, that is an assumption, we don't know that it is so. This is the way I see it, but I'm sure there's a flaw in my reasoning somewhere.
Btw, I usually only get access to the Net on weekends so it might be a while before I can reply to this post.
Peace.
barney
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Hi & welcome roadie.
God, according to the major religions does know we will choose "A".
Its the Omnipotent, all knowing bit.
I personally beleive a God cant jump around in time. It would make everything totally pointless. He would just go.."Ahh! The Romans..i'm going to make them then let them smash up my people then defeat them and that will have this implication and then this will happen then this and it will all end like this.
So it's like a moviemaker making a film with nobody to watch it.
God, according to the major religions does know we will choose "A".
Its the Omnipotent, all knowing bit.
I personally beleive a God cant jump around in time. It would make everything totally pointless. He would just go.."Ahh! The Romans..i'm going to make them then let them smash up my people then defeat them and that will have this implication and then this will happen then this and it will all end like this.
So it's like a moviemaker making a film with nobody to watch it.
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Yes, the Quran specifically states multiple times that Allah is all-knowing.
Also, if God knew the future, then why did he send multiple revelations?
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It is analogous to a Professor who asks his students to perform 30 minutes of studying everyday for the first week. During the second week, he 'abrogates' his initial command and asks his students to perform 1 hour of studying every day. The Professor did not make a mistake initially, nor did he react to an unforeseen event. Rather, he had always planned to give a lighter load the first week to his students, and then increase the workload the next week because he knew they would be ready for it. In fact, he had his plan for the entire course written down and recorded. So when he initially gave the order to perform 30 minutes of homework, he knew that he would later abrogate this command.
More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/13064-quran-abrogation.html
More info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-sources/13064-quran-abrogation.html
If you know the concept of historical social context, then that actually makes alot of sense.
Regards.