Question about Islam's position on non-Muslims

[H.E.Pennypacker]

I have a question that I have been wanting to ask, and I am not sure I can word it as best as I would like to. In any event, it relates to how Islaam sees other religions, and what its stance is on tolerance. I don't have an official position on tolerance, and as a Muslim, I adopt whatever view Islaam has.

I ask about this, because in an increasingly diverse world, I must know how to interact with others, and understand how the prophet (peace be upon him) would view members of other religions if he were alive today. I am confused, in large part, because of how Islamic literature (the Quran, and ahadith) is structured.

I looked up the word "tolerant" in the dictionary, and one of its necessities is that a tolerant person respects members of other religions. I have never really understood the meaning of respect (my English is just fine - it's not a language issue), but does Islaam respect members of other religions? I can't be too sure. If everyone, from an Islamic perspective should be Muslim (and I could be wrong on this, if this is even Islaam's perspective), I don't know if this constitutes disrespect. I am not looking for subjective answers. I am strictly looking for answers from the Quran and ahadith.

Also, another issue is what comes across as Islaam's hostility towards other religions. Allaah is not one to sugar-coat things, and He is quite blunt about how He feels about non-Muslims. The Quraan has extensive passages that indicate hostility towards members of other religions (the same applies to ahadith). Consider the following verses (the following is a translation of the meaning, not the translation itself - also the Quraan is revealed in references to specific events/people so the following could only refer to some non-Muslims, and not all):

"In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie." - Calling what is in the hearts of non-Muslims a disease would offend most, if not all non-Muslims.

"The curse of Allah is on disbelievers." - I am sure non-Muslims are not too fond of being called cursed.

"They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)." Again, I don't know how calling non-Muslims deaf, dumb, and blind is consistent with tolerance, but I am not sure it is intolerant either, but it is definitely, to say the least, unkind towards them.

Note: These verses are taken from Al-Baghra.

I don't know how we are supposed to live amongst non-Muslims if there is going to be a wall of hostility, and if Islaam views non-Muslims as being, uh, unworthy of living alongside Muslims. Keep in mind that I am not saying this is what Islaam says is true (or anything else I have said in this thread). I am only asking questions here, and I don't try to pass anything off as being an Islamic view. What is promoted by Islaam is up to God, and I won't speak for Him. He knows best how to do that.

I need a clarification, because either non-Muslims are humans just like us, or they are everything not good. Of course, non-Muslims are humans from a scientific perspective, but I am talking about spiritually.

Another issue is that of respect. Can we fairly expect respect from non-Muslims, but not afford respect to them? Suppose someone attacked a Islamic building of importance, I'd be enraged. But then again, the prophet (peace be upon him) destroyed the idols belonging to the pagans from his era. I have to scratch my head, but how come it is wrong for them to touch our buildings, but it is okay for us to destroy theirs?

I realize I will get a biased answer here, but the same is true everywhere else. This thread does not accompany everything I have been thinking, but it is becoming too long.

I have mentioned this before, but I am a Muslim as a reminder. If there are any non-Muslims here, please share your thoughts.

PS: I may be using the wrong forum. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I ask about this, because in an increasingly diverse world, I must know how to interact with others, and understand how the prophet (peace be upon him) would view members of other religions if he were alive today. I am confused, in large part, because of how Islamic literature (the Quran, and ahadith) is structured.

Well we should always aproach people gently and invite them to our religion. And yes we should try to be as tolerant as possible. However the bounderies of tolerance need to be very clear. Tolerance ends where forsaking the rules of your own religion begins. In other words you cannot violate a rule or make an exception for teh sake of tolerance. This is something that sadly isn't always clear. I've even had an Imam once tell me: "it should be ok to sit together with people drinking alcohol if it's for the sake of inviting them to religion"
As if these people are drinking 24/7 and it is completely unavoidable in order to invite them. Besides that there are alternative ways to reach these people, we do not have the authority to make exceptions on rules. So my point is, don't forsake your own religion for the sake of showing them you're tolerant. Because then it'll never end and they'll always push you to be a bit more lenient. So make sure you got those boundaries well defended.

I looked up the word "tolerant" in the dictionary, and one of its necessities is that a tolerant person respects members of other religions. I have never really understood the meaning of respect (my English is just fine - it's not a language issue), but does Islaam respect members of other religions? I can't be too sure. If everyone, from an Islamic perspective should be Muslim (and I could be wrong on this, if this is even Islaam's perspective), I don't know if this constitutes disrespect. I am not looking for subjective answers. I am strictly looking for answers from the Quran and ahadith.

Respect is very important. Here's an extract I copy pasted from a tefsir (in teh shade of the qur'an; http://www.islamworld.net/qutb/shade.html)

The life story of the Prophet is composed of pages of gentility, ease, tolerance and understanding in all affairs. Let us quote here an incident which reveals his method of dealing with people of difficult temperament: "Once a bedouin came to the Prophet asking something. The Prophet granted his request then said, 'Have I treated you well?' The bedouin said, 'No, and you have not been kind either!' The Muslims with the Prophet felt very angry and wanted to punish the man. The Prophet, however, motioned them to leave him alone.
He then went into his house, sent for the man and gave him something over and above his original request. He then asked him, 'Have I treated you well?' The man said, 'Yes, indeed. May Allah reward you well for you are a good kinsman and a good tribesman'. The Prophet then said to him, 'When you said what you said you made my companions feel angry with you. If you like to tell them what you have just told me so that they would have nothing against you.' The man said, 'I will'. The following day he came and the Prophet said, 'This bedouin said yesterday what you have heard. We gave him more and he claims now that he is satisfied. Is that so?' The bedouin said, 'Yes indeed! May Allah reward you well, for you are a good kinsman and a good tribesman.' The Prophet then said to his companions, 'My affair with this bedouin is similar to that of a man who had a she camel which ran loose. Other people rushed to try to catch her but they managed only to make her run wild. The owner then appealed to them to let him alone with his she-camel as he was gentler to her and knew her temperament. The owner then went towards her, having picked something to feed her with. He approached her gently until she responded and sat down. He then saddled her and mounted her back. Had I left you alone when the man said what he said, you would probably have killed him and he would have gone to Hell." So gentle, simple and compassionate was the Prophet's attitude towards any person of rough nature.​

"In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie." - Calling what is in the hearts of non-Muslims a disease would offend most, if not all non-Muslims.

This verse is meant as a warning for them, not as an authority for us to judge them. And remember we never know what is in a person's heart. Note that not all non-muslims are alike. There are non-believers and disbelievers. A disbeliever is someone who rejects faith on personal preference. Whereas a non-believer can be many things, it could be someone who doesn't know Islam, or who is confused.

Again, I don't know how calling non-Muslims deaf, dumb, and blind is consistent with tolerance, but I am not sure it is intolerant either, but it is definitely, to say the least, unkind towards them.

Also note there's adifference with mulims making statements and Allah subhana wa ta'ala making statements. When a person would make such claims it would be a sign of intolerance. That is because a person has no way of veryfing what is in someones heart. So if they do make these claims it shows they are unconsidering. However allah subhana wa ta'ala does know very well what is in whoms heart. And he does nothing but exposing the truth. So in this case it is not inconsiderent. On the contrary it is a warning for their own good.

I need a clarification, because either non-Muslims are humans just like us, or they are everything not good. Of course, non-Muslims are humans from a scientific perspective, but I am talking about spiritually.

Remember, a lot of brothers and sisters of this forum used to be non-muslims before they reverted. so when you see a non-muslim, aproach them as possible future brothers, not as the enemy.

Suppose someone attacked a Islamic building of importance, I'd be enraged. But then again, the prophet (peace be upon him) destroyed the idols belonging to the pagans from his era. I have to scratch my head, but how come it is wrong for them to touch our buildings, but it is okay for us to destroy theirs?

The prophets peace be upon them had been granted authoroty for those things. I do not know wheter or not it is allowed for us muslims to do similar things. Allah subbhana wa ta'ala knows and I do not. But I can say that just because the prophets did, does not mean we are alowed to do that to.
So I'm sorry, but I can't answer that question

 

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Well we should always aproach people gently and invite them to our religion.

I am talking about interacting with non-Muslims in the secular world, not Da'wah. I understand we must be gentle and stuff in Da'wah. Since we bump into non-Muslims everywhere, and interact with them on a daily basis, it is important to know what Islaam thinks of them.

It is difficult to imagine being hostile towards non-Muslims you meet everywhere, including friends, as well as co-workers, and those at school. As far as breaking rules, that, again, is a Da'wah thing. Like I said, I am talking about the secular world...for example, ordering something at a fast food restaurant, or going to the supermarket...if Islam dictates that this person who is serving (e.g. the cashier) is someone vile, and un-human like.

Respect is very important.

That hadith you posted relates to respect in general, and is not specific to non-Muslims. This is unrelated, but I can't imagine the individual displeased with the Muslim in that hadith is a Muslim. Not that he was a non-Muslim, but I can't imagine a Muslim talking like that to the prophet (peace be upon him).

This verse is meant as a warning for them, not as an authority for us to judge them.

I am not sure I see the difference. Since God's words are those of truth, isn't it true that, according to that verse, non-Muslims have a disease in their hearts. What I was getting at is that non-Muslims could not possibly appreciate someone saying that about them, just as I wouldn't appreciate someone saying that about me, or Muslims.

Also note there's adifference with mulims making statements and Allah subhana wa ta'ala making statements. When a person would make such claims it would be a sign of intolerance.

What I meant by what I said is repeating what God said, as He said it. I didn't say that I was calling a particular non-Muslim deaf, blind, etc. Instead, if God says that non-believers are deaf and blind, it most be appropriate for a Muslim to make the same generalization.

Remember, a lot of brothers and sisters of this forum used to be non-muslims before they reverted. so when you see a non-muslim, aproach them as possible future brothers, not as the enemy.

Holding that as one's perspective in life would certainly decrease a lot of tension in the world. But I don't recall seeing that perspective being promoted in Islamic authorities (Quran, ahadith).

The prophets peace be upon them had been granted authoroty for those things.

Do you, by any chance, have a reference for this (e.g. an article)? That is, an article or something that shows he had permission. I am sure he had permission, because I believe everyone in his area was Muslim at the time of this destruction. What does not add up, if I am not mistaken, is why the ancient Egyptian structures (those things alongside pyramids with faces and stuff) of the prophet's time were not destroyed. I know, by the time he died, Muslims had covered either all or most of Arabia, and they may have even gone to Egypt.

 

[Balthasar21]

I have a question that I have been wanting to ask, and I am not sure I can word it as best as I would like to. In any event, it relates to how Islaam sees other religions, and what its stance is on tolerance. I don't have an official position on tolerance, and as a Muslim, I adopt whatever view Islaam has.

I ask about this, because in an increasingly diverse world, I must know how to interact with others, and understand how the prophet (peace be upon him) would view members of other religions if he were alive today. I am confused, in large part, because of how Islamic literature (the Quran, and ahadith) is structured.

I looked up the word "tolerant" in the dictionary, and one of its necessities is that a tolerant person respects members of other religions. I have never really understood the meaning of respect (my English is just fine - it's not a language issue), but does Islaam respect members of other religions? I can't be too sure. If everyone, from an Islamic perspective should be Muslim (and I could be wrong on this, if this is even Islaam's perspective), I don't know if this constitutes disrespect. I am not looking for subjective answers. I am strictly looking for answers from the Quran and ahadith.

Also, another issue is what comes across as Islaam's hostility towards other religions. Allaah is not one to sugar-coat things, and He is quite blunt about how He feels about non-Muslims. The Quraan has extensive passages that indicate hostility towards members of other religions (the same applies to ahadith). Consider the following verses (the following is a translation of the meaning, not the translation itself - also the Quraan is revealed in references to specific events/people so the following could only refer to some non-Muslims, and not all):

"In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie." - Calling what is in the hearts of non-Muslims a disease would offend most, if not all non-Muslims.

"The curse of Allah is on disbelievers." - I am sure non-Muslims are not too fond of being called cursed.

"They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path)." Again, I don't know how calling non-Muslims deaf, dumb, and blind is consistent with tolerance, but I am not sure it is intolerant either, but it is definitely, to say the least, unkind towards them.

Note: These verses are taken from Al-Baghra.

I don't know how we are supposed to live amongst non-Muslims if there is going to be a wall of hostility, and if Islaam views non-Muslims as being, uh, unworthy of living alongside Muslims. Keep in mind that I am not saying this is what Islaam says is true (or anything else I have said in this thread). I am only asking questions here, and I don't try to pass anything off as being an Islamic view. What is promoted by Islaam is up to God, and I won't speak for Him. He knows best how to do that.

I need a clarification, because either non-Muslims are humans just like us, or they are everything not good. Of course, non-Muslims are humans from a scientific perspective, but I am talking about spiritually.

Another issue is that of respect. Can we fairly expect respect from non-Muslims, but not afford respect to them? Suppose someone attacked a Islamic building of importance, I'd be enraged. But then again, the prophet (peace be upon him) destroyed the idols belonging to the pagans from his era. I have to scratch my head, but how come it is wrong for them to touch our buildings, but it is okay for us to destroy theirs?

I realize I will get a biased answer here, but the same is true everywhere else. This thread does not accompany everything I have been thinking, but it is becoming too long.

I have mentioned this before, but I am a Muslim as a reminder. If there are any non-Muslims here, please share your thoughts.

PS: I may be using the wrong forum. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If I May

You should study other cultures / religion as you would your own , To have a better overstanding of what they Accept / Believe and have Faith in . This way when you ask a question about other cultures / religion you'll know first hand , Because no Iman / Minster Etc , going to teach you anything Posotive about another cultures / religion . The Key To Knowledge of another cultures / religion ( Is To Read / Study with an open mind ) . And don't get lock into that ZONE of my God / Creator by whatever name you give Him / Her is better then you God / Creator . That's the game each religion plays against each other ,Thats whats keeping the apart , And If You Think These Teacher Don't Know These Things Your Fooling Yourselves , Its call mass control .

 

[- Qatada -]

I am talking about interacting with non-Muslims in the secular world, not Da'wah. I understand we must be gentle and stuff in Da'wah. Since we bump into non-Muslims everywhere, and interact with them on a daily basis, it is important to know what Islaam thinks of them.

It is difficult to imagine being hostile towards non-Muslims you meet everywhere, including friends, as well as co-workers, and those at school. As far as breaking rules, that, again, is a Da'wah thing. Like I said, I am talking about the secular world...for example, ordering something at a fast food restaurant, or going to the supermarket...if Islam dictates that this person who is serving (e.g. the cashier) is someone vile, and un-human like.

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.


[Qur'an 60: 8-9]
​

That hadith you posted relates to respect in general, and is not specific to non-Muslims. This is unrelated, but I can't imagine the individual displeased with the Muslim in that hadith is a Muslim. Not that he was a non-Muslim, but I can't imagine a Muslim talking like that to the prophet (peace be upon him).

The verse i mentioned above clarifies alot of the misconceptions you've got, inshaa Allaah (God willing.)

I am not sure I see the difference. Since God's words are those of truth, isn't it true that, according to that verse, non-Muslims have a disease in their hearts. What I was getting at is that non-Muslims could not possibly appreciate someone saying that about them, just as I wouldn't appreciate someone saying that about me, or Muslims.

If the truth is so apparent and the person continuouslly rejects Allaah's favours, worship other than Him, and claims that Allaah has lied - don't they really have a disease in their heart?

What I meant by what I said is repeating what God said, as He said it. I didn't say that I was calling a particular non-Muslim deaf, blind, etc. Instead, if God says that non-believers are deaf and blind, it most be appropriate for a Muslim to make the same generalization.

When the truth is apparent to someone, yet they turn away from it. What's stopping them from accepting it, apart from their blindness towards it? Infact, when the Prophets would call their people to Islaam - them people would put their fingers in their ears and run away. What did the Prophet call them to? Allaah's Mercy and reward.

The majority of the times, it was actually the non muslims who insulted the Prophets and the righteous.

Holding that as one's perspective in life would certainly decrease a lot of tension in the world. But I don't recall seeing that perspective being promoted in Islamic authorities (Quran, ahadith).

Then try looking in the Qur'an at the kindness of the Prophets, and how their people harmed them, tortured the believers, and even killed others. Just because they said 'our Lord is Allaah.' Yet look at the patience and consistency of the believers.

Do you, by any chance, have a reference for this (e.g. an article)? That is, an article or something that shows he had permission. I am sure he had permission, because I believe everyone in his area was Muslim at the time of this destruction. What does not add up, if I am not mistaken, is why the ancient Egyptian structures (those things alongside pyramids with faces and stuff) of the prophet's time were not destroyed. I know, by the time he died, Muslims had covered either all or most of Arabia, and they may have even gone to Egypt.

Do you really think they won't try to destroy our Islamic Masjids/Mosques? What's stopping them from doing that? Does their religion forbid that? Or do they take their religion as a game where you can play about with the rules?

So the claim that they can't destroy ours is false, because if they can harm, torture, abuse, kill the believers - then they won't find it a problem to destroy the believers places of worship also.




Peace.

 

[Balthasar21]

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.


[Qur'an 60: 8-9]
​

The verse i mentioned above clarifies alot of the misconceptions you've got, inshaa Allaah (God willing.)





If the truth is so apparent and the person continuouslly rejects Allaah's favours, worship other than Him, and claims that Allaah has lied - don't they really have a disease in their heart?





When the truth is apparent to someone, yet they turn away from it. What's stopping them from accepting it, apart from their blindness towards it? Infact, when the Prophets would call their people to Islaam - them people would put their fingers in their ears and run away. What did the Prophet call them to? Allaah's Mercy and reward.

The majority of the times, it was actually the non muslims who insulted the Prophets and the righteous.






Then try looking in the Qur'an at the kindness of the Prophets, and how their people harmed them, tortured the believers, and even killed others. Just because they said 'our Lord is Allaah.' Yet look at the patience and consistency of the believers.





Do you really think they won't try to destroy our Islamic Masjids/Mosques? What's stopping them from doing that? Does their religion forbid that? Or do they take their religion as a game where you can play about with the rules?

So the claim that they can't destroy ours is false, because if they can harm, torture, abuse, kill the believers - then they won't find it a problem to destroy the believers places of worship also.




Peace.

Thank You For Proveing My Point ! I just love conformation ...

 

[H.E.Pennypacker]

If the truth is so apparent and the person continuouslly rejects Allaah's favours, worship other than Him, and claims that Allaah has lied - don't they really have a disease in their heart?

Despite the fact that I firmly believe in God's existence, I can't say that His existence is so apparent that a reasonable and rational person may not disagree with me. I have my personal reasons for believing, but no one else shares my these reasons (since they pertain to personal experiences). There's also no concrete proof of God's existence. If there was concrete proof, faith could not exist, because His existence could be proven through repeated trials (as would be done in scientific research). What I am saying is that there's room for this, and despite being disappointed in someone's beliefs, I can't say I would expect someone else to come to the same conclusions that I have.

When the truth is apparent to someone, yet they turn away from it. What's stopping them from accepting it, apart from their blindness towards it?

I wouldn't say that atheists are blind as much as they are unwilling to see the worth of faith, and place an undue level of proof necessary to prove that God does exist. It doesn't mean that they are unwilling to listen, either. Suppose there was concrete proof of God's existence, I am sure the vast majority of atheists would readily adopt a belief in God. By concrete, I mean something that can be proven through the scientific method. For example, let's say that there's blood on a crime scene victim, but it is minute blood that cannot be seen by the human eye. In this case, an investigator could use various chemicals to detect the presence of blood, and this process would work almost every single time (depending on the amount of blood there is - it's possible there is so little blood that even these chemicals won't pick it up). My point here is that through experiments, atheists want something proven to them; a test that they can use on their own.

The majority of the times, it was actually the non muslims who insulted the Prophets and the righteous.

I can't respond to this point, but I just want to say it has no real relevance to what I am talking about: non-Muslims today with whom I interact.

Then try looking in the Qur'an at the kindness of the Prophets, and how their people harmed them, tortured the believers, and even killed others. Just because they said 'our Lord is Allaah.' Yet look at the patience and consistency of the believers.

That is true, but one would also expect that since believers were tormented when they were the minority, that they would be mindful not to torment the minority once they became the majority. I am not saying that the believers at any time, majority or minority, harassed non-Muslims at all.

For example, when the Prophet (peace be upon him) formed a belief in God, those around him harassed him to no end. When the Muslims became the majority, the Prophet (peace be upon him) did expect that non-Muslims leave the area, not with violence or anything, but he wanted them to leave nevertheless. I would be outraged if someone were to propose the same thing for Muslims, and ask Muslims to leave a certain of the world just because of their faith. This would be bigotry on their hand.

Do you really think they won't try to destroy our Islamic Masjids/Mosques? What's stopping them from doing that? Does their religion forbid that? Or do they take their religion as a game where you can play about with the rules?

I am not at all suggesting that they would not want to destroy Masaajid, but I don't think we should model ourselves after them in the first place. We don't belong to the same religion, and we certainly don't hold the same views. That means we can't hold the same standards. If they wish to destroy masaajid, we would be well in our right to make sure that does not happen, but we must also not do to them what we don't want them to do to us (destroying their property).

Unfortunately, I have not been able to find the answers I have been looking for, but I asked questions that, admittedly, should be pointed at the Prophet (peace be upon him) or God, because they, of course, are primary sources. A distinct disadvantage of our generation is that we don't have direct interaction with the prophet (peace be upon him), because he would be able to give us authoritative answers without having to reference either the Quraan or ahadeeth (which wouldn't make sense, since the ahadeeth are his own words).