Hamas Full Control Of Gaza!

[Cognescenti]

I think that what they mean by the destruction of Israel is not forcing the Jewish people out, but forcing their government out and giving the Palestinians their land back, or compensating them somehow. And the reason Arabs haven't been able to take down Israel is because Israel is directly backed by the US and the Arabs are indirectly controlled by the US. So if the US agenda is to keep Israel where it is, most likely it'll stay that way.

I still don't understand. Are you saying that the state of Israel would still exist
but it would populated by a majority of Palestinians and everything would be OK? :rollseyes Are you saying you want a Netanyahu led government? :?

Then there is this: ..."And the reason Arabs haven't been able to take down Israel is because Israel is directly backed by the US.... "

That is bunk. In 48 the Israelis fought with ancient rifles. In 56 and 67 the Israelis had no top of the line US equipment. In 67, their air force's most sophisticated planes were French. In 73, they had a few old F4 Phantoms which the US had been using for many years but they were up against the best SAM's the Russians could ship to Egypt (in some cases even manned by Russians). The Syrians had the best Russian tanks. The Jordanians had top of the line British tanks.

I am sorry to tell you, but the painful truth is the IDF were better trained, better led, better educated, much more highly motivated (the threat of extermination tends to do that) more courageous and just plain better fighters. I realize that may be difficult to hear, but it is true. Your notion that Arab governments are "indirectly controlled" by the US is good for a laugh. The Egyptians are under the infuence of the US now (because they take US money) but that sure as Hell wasn't true for Nasser or for Sadat prior to 73. When exactly, was Syria ever controlled by the US???

 

[Skywalker]

I still don't understand. Are you saying that the state of Israel would still exist but it would populated by a majority of Palestinians and everything would be OK? Are you saying you want a Netanyahu led government?

Well think about it, what else could they mean by "destruction of Israel?" Do you think they mean the massacre or deportation of the entire Israeli population? How practical is that? Obviously the Jews would have the right to stay where they are if they want to, while at the same time arranging a compromise for the displaced Palestinians.

That is bunk.

Really? How much money does Israel receive from the US yearly? Also, who gave them their tanks in the 1967 war? Finally, where did they get their nuclear weapons from?

 

[Cognescenti]

Well think about it, what else could they mean by "destruction of Israel?" Do you think they mean the massacre or deportation of the entire Israeli population? How practical is that? Obviously the Jews would have the right to stay where they are if they want to, while at the same time arranging a compromise for the displaced Palestinians.

So the Jews lucky enough to still be alive but foolish enough to stay would be living under a Palestinian "occupation"? Is there any doubt why the fight so hard?

Really? How much money does Israel receive from the US yearly?

About 68 M$ annually in loans (95%) and grants through 1966. The figure for 1966 was a bit higher (100 M). All the loans have been paid back, btw.

You might also ask yourself where the Egyptians got the money to buy 420 Russian aircraft (including several hundred MiG-21's), 900 tanks (including some of their latest) and 1000 artillery pieces. Do you think that was funded with camel rides at the Pyramids??

Also, who gave them their tanks in the 1967 war? Finally, where did they get their nuclear weapons from?

I'm not sure anybody "gave" them tanks. Most of their tanks were refurbished Sherman tanks from WWII, which, although of original US manufacture 25 years earlier, they could have bought for junk from a least a dozen European countries, light French anti-tank vehicles which, I am quite certain, they did not get from the US, and perhaps 40 M-48 tanks of US design which they bought second hand from Germany. The M-48 was being retired from NATO service. The Israelis were refurbishing them and most were not ready for the 67 war.

Want to see a list of IDF planes in 67?

45 Fouga Magister trainer jets that were used as attack planes, 50 Ouragan bombers, 20 Vatour light bombers, and 35 Mystere Mark IV fighters, 35 Super Mystere and 65 Mirage IIIc fighters

Where do you think they came from? Hmmm?

The nukes they made themselves. I believe the nuclear power plant they used to produce plutonium was....wait for it......of French manufacture.

Anything else you want to know?

 

[wilberhum]

Temporarily recognize Israel for a decade or two until they're strong economically, have good alliances with the Arabs, and actually taste peace for a while, and then take over Israel when they actually have the physical capability to do so.

No one wants peace. :raging:

But no one sees that as a problem. :skeleton:

 

[Trumble]

Or they can be smart do both. Temporarily recognize Israel for a decade or two until they're strong economically, have good alliances with the Arabs, and actually taste peace for a while, and then take over Israel when they actually have the physical capability to do so. But until that time, don't fire one rocket or send out a single suicide bomber (and hopefully someone will tell them one day that suicide is haraam). To me, that's playing it smart.

If you think 'tasting peace' and then throwing it away is 'smart', I'd hate to see your definition of stupid. Fortunately, in the real world things don't work like that. The non-idiot element, having tasted peace, is likely to jail anyone who wants to start the whole thing up again, not follow them into war. And you think they could gain 'the physical capacity to take over Israel' without the Israelis noticing and doing something about it? Utter tosh.

The nukes they made themselves. I believe the nuclear power plant they used to produce plutonium was....wait for it......of French manufacture.

Yup. The Americans didn't even know about it until a U2 happened to fly over it. They weren't happy.

 

[barney]

45 Fouga Magister trainer jets that were used as attack planes, 50 Ouragan bombers, 20 Vatour light bombers, and 35 Mystere Mark IV fighters, 35 Super Mystere and 65 Mirage IIIc fighters

Where do you think they came from? Hmmm?

The nukes they made themselves. I believe the nuclear power plant they used to produce plutonium was....wait for it......of French manufacture.

Anything else you want to know?

FN-FAL rifles (belgian) FN-MAG GPMG (Belgium) UZI SMG (Home-produced)

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

Rice Calls Hamas 'Resistance Movement'

Rice Calls Hamas 'Resistance Movement' But Unscripted Remarks Not Published By Paper

By Aaron Klein
Posted: June 26, 2007
72:17 P.M. Eastern
WorldNetDaily

JERUSALEM – U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice twice referred to Hamas as a "resistance movement" during a meeting with reporters from the New York Daily News earlier this month, but the newspaper did not report her remarks, WND has learned.

Rice's interview is transcribed in full on the State Department website.

Rice's statements mark the second documented time in recent months she called Hamas a "resistance movement" during unscripted chats with journalists....During the interview June 8 with the editorial board of the Daily News, Rice was asked about the recent history of democratic elections in the Middle East and the rise to power of...Hamas.

Rice told the paper it was "very interesting to see Hamas trying to come to terms with no longer being really a resistance movement, but having to deal with politics."

Rice then referred to Hamas as a resistance movement a second time during the interview.

"A moderate Palestinian friend of mine said, 'You know, they (Hamas) used to be the great resistance, running the streets with their faces covered and going after Israel. And now, they look like a bunch of politicians who also can't make the sewer system work.'"

She went on to reference Hamas' terror cells, calling them the group's "military wing..."

"And they're (Hamas) clearly uncomfortable in that framework, which is part of why I think you see the military wing of Hamas trying to make this again about Israel and the Palestinians, not about the contestation of politics inside the Palestinian territories," Rice said.

Rice's remarks were not challenged by the Daily News editors.

Much of the interview was conducted by Daily News Chairman Mort Zuckerman, who is also a prominent Jewish leader.

Reached for comment, Zuckerman told WND, "The U S government officially refers to Hamas as a terrorist organization, and I can't imagine that isn't her policy as well."

A State Department spokesman could not explain why Rice called Hamas a "resistance movement."

The spokesman confirmed the State Department had not changed its policy of classifying Hamas as a terror organization.

Rice's Daily News interview was the second recorded time in recent months she called Hamas a "resistance movement."

WND reported Rice, speaking to reporters in Berlin Jan. 18 about the situation of Palestinians prior to 2000, commented, "You had Hamas, of course, sitting out as a resistance movement, not at all, by the way, involved in the politics at all."

Source:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56384

 

[wilberhum]

But who lacks the intelligence to realize that “Resistance” and “Terrorism” are not mutually exclusive?

 

[Cognescenti]

FN-FAL rifles (belgian) FN-MAG GPMG (Belgium) UZI SMG (Home-produced)

<sounds of crickets chirping>

 

[Zman]

But who lacks the intelligence to realize that “Resistance” and “Terrorism” are not mutually exclusive?

Neither are state organized warfare & terrorism...

 

[Skywalker]

So the Jews lucky enough to still be alive but foolish enough to stay would be living under a Palestinian "occupation"? Is there any doubt why the fight so hard?

It wouldn't be an occupation, they would be given equal rights as citizens, something Israel could never do for the Palestinians. They could even make a joint government that evaluates and asesses the needs and demands of both the Palestinian and Jewish citizens.

About 68 M$ annually in loans (95%) and grants through 1966. The figure for 1966 was a bit higher (100 M). All the loans have been paid back, btw.

That's a joke, right?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

You might wanna read this too and get *enlightened*

You might also ask yourself where the Egyptians got the money to buy 420 Russian aircraft (including several hundred MiG-21's), 900 tanks (including some of their latest) and 1000 artillery pieces. Do you think that was funded with camel rides at the Pyramids??

No, actually I'd say it's from boat rides through the Suez Canal

The nukes they made themselves. I believe the nuclear power plant they used to produce plutonium was....wait for it......of French manufacture.

And the US didn't try to stop them like they're doing now with...wait for it...Iran. Heck, I'd say Israel was more of a threat to the stability of the region then than any county ever was in the history of the Earth.

Anything else you want to know?

Yeah, where do you get your facts from?? :X

 

[Cognescenti]

It wouldn't be an occupation, they would be given equal rights as citizens, something Israel could never do for the Palestinians. They could even make a joint government that evaluates and asesses the needs and demands of both the Palestinian and Jewish citizens.

Yes, but this is the real world The Palestinians can't administer Gaza without slaughtering each other. Can you imagine what the cabinet meetings would be like with a joint Jewish/Arab administartion of the Holy Land.

Something like the model you suggest would be needed to administer Jerusalem but I am beginning to despair of ever getting to that point.

That's a joke, right?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/U.S._Assistance_to_Israel1.html

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

You might wanna read this too and get *enlightened*

Ummm, no. It's not a joke. You asked about the '67 war and how much US support Israel was getting and I cited exactly those figures in your first source.

Yr.....(Total US support loan and grant)
1949 100.0
1950
1951 35.1
1952 86.4
1953 73.6
1954 74.7
1955 52.7
1956 50.8
1957 40.9
1958 85.4
1959 53.3
1960 56.2
1961 77.9
1962 93.4
1963 87.9
1964 37.0
1965 65.1
1966 126.8

No, actually I'd say it's from boat rides through the Suez Canal

Apparently quite a profitable enterprise

And the US didn't try to stop them like they're doing now with...wait for it...Iran. Heck, I'd say Israel was more of a threat to the stability of the region then than any county ever was in the history of the Earth.

USS Liberty aside, I don't think most Americans are too worried about Israeli nukes. Of course, if I were Assad, I might think about it from time to time should I have a wild idea to take back the Golan.

1) I beleive Israel was not a signatory to the NPT (or it didn't even exist at the time). There were no IAEA inspectors.

2) The French did not ask our permission..neither did the Israelis

3) Satellite recon was not as advanced as it is now.

Yeah, where do you get your facts from?? :X

Curiously from one the same exact sources you did. I do note the withdrawal of your claim the US armed Israel prior to the 67 war

 

[wilberhum]

Hamas critical of Blair envoy role
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E85A7A8B-B519-4489-AD40-4B5328060A35.htm

Hamas has condemned the appointment of Tony Blair as Middle East envoy.

"Blair, who supported the American occupation in Iraq and Afghanistan, may not be a man of peace," Fawzi Barhum, the Hamas spokesman told AFP in Gaza.

Boy, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Like Hamas is on a peace mission.

The article does not mention who Hamas thinks would be acceptable.
I doubt that they would find anyone less than Adolf acceptable.

 

[Trumble]

Blair's appointment is smart, IMHO. It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference who got the job as far as persuading Hamas to do anything, but one thing Blair just might be able to do (that nobody Hamas liked ever would) is persuade the Israelis to give some ground.

 

[Keltoi]

Blair's appointment is smart, IMHO. It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference who got the job as far as persuading Hamas to do anything, but one thing Blair just might be able to do (that nobody Hamas liked ever would) is persuade the Israelis to give some ground.

Good point. I think the "quartet" chose Blair for that very reason. A person who has credibility with Israel is just as important as someone with credibility with whatever Palestinian entity has control.

 

[Cognescenti]

The best short term hope for peace in the Holy Land was felled by a brain hemorrhage. What the peace process really needs is a doctor (or perhaps God) to revive Sharon. He had such a hard-liner credentials that he was able to push his own party. The best example is the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza.

Netanyahu would have similar street cred, but he would first need to win and he would need space from the Hamas nutjobs to get anything done.

 

[mariam.]

Somehow I don't think it was quite that humanitarian...you don't bring up the "Elders of Zion" to foster understanding. Maybe I missed something.

actually, I don't understand what wrong with bringing up the "Elders of Zion" .. maybe this book is exaggerated but there is no smoke without fire.

I am not an Anti-semitic .. or Anti-Jews. but, Iam an Anti- zionism.
you have to understand that the zionism use the religion to them personal interest.

 

[wilberhum]

I don't understand what wrong with bringing up the "Elders of Zion"

Because it has been proven to be a fabricated lie to inspire Jewish hatred.

 

[Cognescenti]

Because it has been proven to be a fabricated lie to inspire Jewish hatred.

True, there is that, but I think she means what's wrong with it besides that?

 

[Zman]

/Peace To All

Abbas Advisor Ssays Hamas Fighting Collaborators

Hani al-Hassan, Senior Presidential Advisor Says Gaza War Was Between Hamas and Fatah Collaborators Who Aided Israel, US.

Gunshots Fired At Al-Hassan's Home Following Statements, Abbas Dismisses Him From His Role

By Ali Waked
06.28.07
Ynet

The Gaza events were not a war between Fatah and Hamas; but between Hamas and Fatah collaborators who served the Americans and the Israelis, said a senior Fatah advisor on Wednesday.

Hani al-Hassan, the Palestinian president's senior political advisor and member of Fatah's central committee said in a TV interview that what was happening in the Gaza Strip was the defeat of to plans of American Major General Keith Dayton and his Fatah followers.

Al-Hassan's words severely discredit Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and other Arab leaders' claims that the Gaza takeover was a coup against Palestinian democracy.

By making such statements the presidential advisor supports Hamas' claims that the war was between a small group of Fatah men who served Israel and the United States.

Following the interview, which put a dent in Fatah's PR efforts, Fatah gunmen fired at al-Hassan's home. No one was injured, as al-Hassan was abroad for the interview.

Senior Fatah bodies demanded al-Hassan be dismissed from all his duties, but Abbas settled for firing him only from his post as senior political advisor...

Source:
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3418486,00.html