"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Woodrow]

Now the blood of those animals merely covered sins, as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood. God's MERCY on the sinner was based on the shedding of blood of the animal in payment for the sinner's sins.

I always thought that was the origin of Passover too. Until I had a few Jewish people tell me different.

This is from a Jewish site:

Passover celebrates the Hebrew peoples' freedom from Egyptian bondage that took place approximately 3,300 years ago, as told in the first 15 chapters of the biblical Book of Exodus. In dramatic narration, the Passover story describes the events which led to their Exodus from Egypt and concurrently led to the Hebrews' intellectual transition and elevation from the "animalistic" intellect due to the pagan customs that they had adopted from the Egyptians while in Egypt, to the development of their "human" intellect, which eventually enabled them to be worthy enough to receive the Torah from G-d via Moses at Mount Sinai on the 50th day after the Exodus from Egypt.

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/

I only bring this up is because I keep finding from Jews that the Jewish concept of Atonement differs from what the Christians teach as being from Jewish belief.

Hopefully, one of our Jewish Members will be able to speak more on that.

Actually none of us who are not Jewish are doing an injustice by saying we believe we know Jewish beliefs.

 

[Phil12123]

I always thought that was the origin of Passover too. Until I had a few Jewish people tell me different.

This is from a Jewish site:

Source: http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/

I only bring this up is because I keep finding from Jews that the Jewish concept of Atonement differs from what the Christians teach as being from Jewish belief.

Hopefully, one of our Jewish Members will be able to speak more on that.

Actually none of us who are not Jewish are doing an injustice by saying we believe we know Jewish beliefs.

I couldn't find a very good explanation of the origin of Passover on that site other than what you have quoted. And that is accurate, although it contains what I would call "editorializing" when it talks about "animalistic intellect" and "human intellect". The events of the Tenth Plague, as recorded in Exodus 12, are not disputed:

Ex. 12:
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt saying,
2. This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you.
3. Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house:
4. And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's passover.
12. For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord.
13. And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD, I WILL PASS OVER YOU, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
21. Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.
22. And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
23. For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the Lord will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you
29. And it came to pass, that at midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Now I may have added my own editorializing when I said, "as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood." The event of the Passover, Ex. 12, was not perhaps dealing with sins being paid for by the Passover lamb, but just a picture that when God saw the blood, judgment (in that case death of the firstborn) would not fall upon those who followed God's directions and applied the blood as they were told to. But that same picture is seen in all the other animal sacrifices where the blood is used as an atonement for sins, per Lev. 17:11. God's judgment on the sinner for his sins was atoned for and therefore did not fall on him when he followed God's instructions to bring the animal sacrifices to the priests who offered them to God as instructed by God through Moses. My point remains that Christ, as the Lamb of God, was the final, completely sufficient sacrifice for sins, with His blood washing away all sins for all time of the person who puts his faith in that Lamb of God and His redemptive Work at Calvary.

 

[MustafaMc]

I couldn't find a very good explanation of the origin of Passover on that site other than what you have quoted. And that is accurate, although it contains what I would call "editorializing" when it talks about "animalistic intellect" and "human intellect". The events of the Tenth Plague, as recorded in Exodus 12, are not disputed:

Yes, this is consistent with my understanding of what the Passover refers to.

Now I may have added my own editorializing when I said, "as in the Passover, when God saw the blood, He would pass over the sinner and judgment would not fall on him. The sin was paid for by the animal's life, its blood." The event of the Passover, Ex. 12, was not perhaps dealing with sins being paid for by the Passover lamb, but just a picture that when God saw the blood, judgment (in that case death of the firstborn) would not fall upon those who followed God's directions and applied the blood as they were told to.

The important point I believe is about submissive obedience to the Will of Allah, not the spilling of blood.

But that same picture is seen in all the other animal sacrifices where the blood is used as an atonement for sins, per Lev. 17:11. God's judgment on the sinner for his sins was atoned for and therefore did not fall on him when he followed God's instructions to bring the animal sacrifices to the priests who offered them to God as instructed by God through Moses. My point remains that Christ, as the Lamb of God, was the final, completely sufficient sacrifice for sins, with His blood washing away all sins for all time of the person who puts his faith in that Lamb of God and His redemptive Work at Calvary.

Perhaps, but I still believe it is the obedience to Allah that is important. Not saying that I believe this to be true, but a different way of looking at the "cross" is the ultimate obedience rather than the ultimate sacrifice. Similar to Abraham obeying Allah to the point of sacrificing his son.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah. And offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Quran 37:99-102 Ibrahim said: "I am going to take refuge with my Rabb, He will surely guide me. O Rabb! Grant me a righteous son". So We gave him the good news of a gentle son. When he reached the age to work with him, Ibrahim said to him: "O my son! I have seen a vision that I should offer you as a sacrifice, now tell me what is your view." He replied: "O my father! Do as you are commanded: you will find me, if Allah so wills, of the patient."

Note that the the Quran does not specifically state that it was Ishmael being sacrificed, but at no point in time was Isaac ever the ONLY son of Abraham.

 

[Phil12123]

Perhaps, but I still believe it is the obedience to Allah that is important. Not saying that I believe this to be true, but a different way of looking at the "cross" is the ultimate obedience rather than the ultimate sacrifice. Similar to Abraham obeying Allah to the point of sacrificing his son.

I think it was BOTH. God, Who instituted the OT animal sacrifice system as an atonement for sins, was displeased with sinners who brought their sacrifices but were unrepentant and continued in their sin and disobedience. He preferred obedience so there would be no sinful disobedience to atone for. So Jesus' humbling Himself and becoming "obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:8) certainly pictures a person fully submitting to God and being obedient to Him. But we all know, and God certainly knows, that we DO disobey and we ARE sinful and need an atonement for our sins, so for that reason, the cross was necessary as the ultimate sacrifice for sins.

Genesis 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, even Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah. And offer him there for a burnt-offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

Quran 37:99-102 Ibrahim said: "I am going to take refuge with my Rabb, He will surely guide me. O Rabb! Grant me a righteous son". So We gave him the good news of a gentle son. When he reached the age to work with him, Ibrahim said to him: "O my son! I have seen a vision that I should offer you as a sacrifice, now tell me what is your view." He replied: "O my father! Do as you are commanded: you will find me, if Allah so wills, of the patient."

Note that the the Quran does not specifically state that it was Ishmael being sacrificed, but at no point in time was Isaac ever the ONLY son of Abraham.

That is true, Isaac was never the ONLY son of Abraham, so Gen. 22:2 is certainly something to ponder over. Hebrews 11:17 reiterates Gen. 22:2 and says, "By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son." Perhaps the best we can say is that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son by Sarah and therefore the only son by and through whom God had promised Abraham would be the father of many nations, etc. Here are a few commentary excerpts that I found:

Offered up his only begotten son: Though Abraham had another son (Ishmael, the son of his fleshly attempt to fulfill God’s promise), God did not recognize the other son (Genesis 22:1-14) - so Isaac could be called his only begotten son.

From David Guzik's Commentary
http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/5811.htm

Isaac was Abraham's "only-begotten son" in respect of Sarah and the promises: he sent away his other sons, by other wives (Ge 25:6).

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/jamieson/j...k=Heb&scrCh=11-11&scrV=17-17#xi.xix.xii-p77.2

It may, however, be asked, why is Isaac called the only begotten, for Ishmael was born before him and was still living. To this the answer is, that by God’s express command he was driven from the family, so that he was accounted as one dead, at least, he held no place among Abraham’s children.

John Calvin, at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/cal...ook=Heb&scrCh=11-11&scrV=17-17#xvii.vii-p15.1

Note: (1) Isaac was the only child of his marriage; (2) he was the child of promise and by grace; (3) he was the heir, not only of Abraham but of all God's promises to Abraham.

B. W. Johnson
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/johnson_bw/pnt.pnt1911.html?scrBook=Heb&scrCh=11-11&scrV=17-17#pnt1911-p6.4

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

When Jesus died to wash away our sin, is it means christian are sinless now? does the christian still need to repent?
and if some christian died as a sinful person but believe that Jesus is their savior, how Christian views that?

Just my curiosity..no offend:exhausted

 

[Phil12123]

When Jesus died to wash away our sin, is it means christian are sinless now? does the christian still need to repent?
and if some christian died as a sinful person but believe that Jesus is their savior, how Christian views that?

Good question. Different Christians may give different answers. I will give my answer as a Christian and I invite others to add theirs, and I will not be offended if they differ with me. Christians can have differences of opinion on some things and still love each other and fellowship together as brothers and sisters in the Lord. Someone once said this:

On essentials — unity
on non-essentials — liberty
in all things — charity

"Charity," of course, meaning love.

Now, to answer your question...

When a person repents of his sins, that is, comes to the point where he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God, and he is willing to turn from his sins, and in that repentant states puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He died for his sins and rose again, and thereby makes Him his Lord and Savior, he receives forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift. At that point, the Holy Spirit comes into that person's life to empower him to live a life pleasing to God. His soul is redeemed, saved, born-again, ready for heaven.

That, however, does not mean he will never sin again after that. That is because, while the soul is redeemed, the body is not yet redeemed. That will not occur until Christians get their new bodies, their glorified, resurrection bodies. Paul wrote that we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit do "groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). It is what scripture calls a "sin nature" or "the flesh" that is not yet removed and won't be until we get our new bodies. And it is when a Christian yields to that sin nature or flesh that he sins. We are exhorted to "walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16).

So what happens to a Christian when he sins? Does he lose his salvation and be in danger of going to hell? Well, if he did, the "eternal life" that he received would not be very "eternal," would it? If it only lasts until he sins again, then it is very temporary life. But he does lose something, and that is fellowship with his Lord, just as Adam and Eve when they sinned no longer walked with God, but "hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden" (Gen. 3:8). Now when the believer is in that condition, the Holy Spirit will convict him of his sin and often make him misery until he repents of it and is restored to fellowship with the Lord. The following verses were written to believers:

1 John 1:
5. This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 2:
1. My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
2. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Christians who sin have the promise of 1 John 1:9 above, that if they confess their sins, He is faithful and just to forgive their sins and to cleanse them of all unrighteousness. The "confess" has the idea of agreeing with God concerning your sins, not just using your mouth to list sins.

But notice also the promise of 1 John 2:1, which tells of Christ's present intercessory ministry, as believers' Advocate with the Father on our behalf.

Another thing I should mention is the concept of justification. When a person becomes a believer they are "justified" or made just or right with God, by a judicial declaration of God, based on their faith and Christ's bearing their sins. He takes the sins and gives the believer His righteousness, so that when the believer stands before God, God sees Christ's righteousness not the believer's lack of righteousness. That is how I would describe it. Here is another definition:

Easton's Bible Dictionary:

Justification

A forensic term, opposed to condemnation. As regards its nature, it is the judicial act of God, by which he pardons all the sins of those who believe in Christ, and accounts, accepts, and treats them as righteous in the eye of the law, i.e., as conformed to all its demands. In addition to the pardon of sin, justification declares that all the claims of the law are satisfied in respect of the justified. It is the act of a judge and not of a sovereign. The law is not relaxed or set aside, but is declared to be fulfilled in the strictest sense; and so the person justified is declared to be entitled to all the advantages and rewards arising from perfect obedience to the law (Romans 5:1-10).

It proceeds on the imputing or crediting to the believer by God himself of the perfect righteousness, active and passive, of his Representative and Surety, Jesus Christ (Romans 10:3-9). Justification is not the forgiveness of a man without righteousness, but a declaration that he possesses a righteousness which perfectly and for ever satisfies the law, namely, Christ's righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 4:6-8).

The sole condition on which this righteousness is imputed or credited to the believer is faith in or on the Lord Jesus Christ. Faith is called a "condition," not because it possesses any merit, but only because it is the instrument, the only instrument by which the soul appropriates or apprehends Christ and his righteousness (Romans 1:17; 3:25,26; 4:20,22; Philippians 3:8-11; Galatians 2:16).

The act of faith which thus secures our justification secures also at the same time our sanctification; and thus the doctrine of justification by faith does not lead to licentiousness (Romans 6:2-7). Good works, while not the ground, are the certain consequence of justification (6:14; 7:6). (See GALATIANS, EPISTLE TO .)

 

[vpb]

in all things — charity

"Charity," of course, meaning love.

but u don't love me ....

 

[Phil12123]

but u don't love me ....

Hmmm... maybe it was "silly" of me to say so....

Just kidding. I'm commanded to love everyone, including you.

So I apologize to you for showing lack of love for you.

I will, with God's help, love you in the future, even if you mock me or make fun of me.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

You're right, we got way off-topic. I must have hit a nerve for some people who are in denial of history (non-rewritten, non-sanitized history).

What?..non biased history books did really exist?...oh my God!!!!!

You ask, "what is the wisdom behind this atonement for sin anyway?" It all fulfills the O.T. animal sacrifice system that God gave to His chosen people through Moses. Actually, it goes back further than that, to the Garden of Eden where God had to slay an animal, shedding it blood, to provide clothing: Genesis 3:21 --- "Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them." And, of course, there were the two sacrifices that Cain and Abel offered to God, and God respected Abel's, which was "the firstlings of his flock," which foreshadowed the animal sacrifices that followed under Moses.

i see...Jesus death is actually continuation or fulfillment animal sacrifice system...it makes sense.

I only bring this up is because I keep finding from Jews that the Jewish concept of Atonement differs from what the Christians teach as being from Jewish belief.

What?

I couldn't find a very good explanation of the origin of Passover on that site other than what you have quoted. And that is accurate, although it contains what I would call "editorializing" when it talks about "animalistic intellect" and "human intellect". The events of the Tenth Plague, as recorded in Exodus 12, are not disputed:

what?

When a person repents of his sins, that is, comes to the point where he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God, and he is willing to turn from his sins, and in that repentant states puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He died for his sins and rose again, and thereby makes Him his Lord and Savior, he receives forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift. At that point, the Holy Spirit comes into that person's life to empower him to live a life pleasing to God. His soul is redeemed, saved, born-again, ready for heaven.

ohh..i see..christian still need to repent

are all christian experienced Holy spirit?

which sins actually Jesus died for?
original sin of adam and eve or christian 'personal' sin?

what about sinful christian like Hitler or the serb if they died without or before repented?

 

[Phil12123]

i see...Jesus' death is actually continuation or fulfillment of animal sacrifice system...it makes sense.

Yes, fulfillment, as "the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29).

ohh..i see..christian still need to repent

are all christian experienced Holy spirit?

Yes to both.

which sins actually Jesus died for?
original sin of adam and eve or christian 'personal' sin?

I would say both. His death for all our personal sins provides redemption of the soul and His death for our sinful natures (or flesh) provides redemption of our bodies.

what about sinful christian like Hitler or the serb if they died without or before repented?

Hitler was, as we all are, a sinner, and in his case we all like to emphasize that he was a really BIG sinner, but he certainly was NOT a Christian. Not sure who you mean by "the serb." If anyone dies without Christ, they go to hell. Period. If they die in Christ, they are in heaven. Period.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Hitler was, as we all are, a sinner, and in his case we all like to emphasize that he was a really BIG sinner, but he certainly was NOT a Christian. Not sure who you mean by "the serb." If anyone dies without Christ, they go to hell. Period. If they die in Christ, they are in heaven. Period.

if you mean Hitler is not christian by his doing i will agree, if he christian by faith we'll never know since we're not God or psycic either...but i've read that he also attending Church before he gain power...i also see some picture
Hitler with priest...but yeah i'm assuming.

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

it seems if Hitler or any Serbian troops died during that war, they are going to be save anyway. as you said 'Period'

Am i wrong if i put it like this?:?

Jesus sacrificed Himself to wash away all human sin and at the same time provide chance of redemption in case human sinned again.

If this atonement for sin never occured human will drowning in the original sin and they own personal sin without any chance of redemption, if they repented anyway it's also will never enough.

 

[vpb]

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

Yes they are. And they say they are, and they fight for that. Now wether they follow christianity properly or not I don't know.

 

[Phil12123]

if you mean Hitler is not christian by his doing i will agree, if he christian by faith we'll never know since we're not God or psycic either...but i've read that he also attending Church before he gain power...i also see some picture Hitler with priest...but yeah i'm assuming.

i meant serbian actually--you know Bosnia Herzegovina conflict in the 90' right? are they not Christian too?

it seems if Hitler or any Serbian troops died during that war, they are going to be save anyway. as you said 'Period'

Attending a church and being in a picture with a priest does not make Hitler a Christian. Nor does it make a Serb a Christian just because he/they claim to be Christians and "fight" for it. Let me quote myself and you will see what I mean and how you become a Christian:

When a person repents of his sins, that is, comes to the point where he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God, and he is willing to turn from his sins, and in that repentant state puts his faith and trust in Jesus Christ, that He died for his sins and rose again, and thereby makes Him his Lord and Savior, he receives forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift. At that point, the Holy Spirit comes into that person's life to empower him to live a life pleasing to God. His soul is redeemed, saved, born-again, ready for heaven.

Do you really think Hitler or the Serbs did any of that? I doubt it, but like you said, We're not God or psychic. However, "by their fruits you shall know them," and Hitler did not have very good fruit, did he? So, based on my assumption that they probably were NOT Christians, and assuming that's true, they would be in hell today. Period.

Am i wrong if i put it like this?:?

Jesus sacrificed Himself to wash away all human sin and at the same time provide chance of redemption in case human sinned again.

Jesus died for our sins, ALL of them---past, present, and future. It is not just to provide a "chance of redemption" for later sins. ALL our sins are paid for IN FULL. So, the sins I commit next year were also paid for at Calvary. Jesus does not have to die again to cover those sins too. His ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice pays for them ALL. When a Christian sins, he has the promise of 1 John 1:9, that if he confesses his sins, God is faithful and just to forgive his sins and to cleanse him of all unrighteousness. Plus, he has an Advocate before the Father, making intercession for all believers as their faithful High Priest (1 John 2:1; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:23-28; 8:1).

If this atonement for sin never occured human will drowning in the original sin and they own personal sin without any chance of redemption, if they repented anyway it's also will never enough.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please restate that?

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Attending a church and being in a picture with a priest does not make Hitler a Christian. Nor does it make a Serb a Christian just because he/they claim to be Christians and "fight" for it

i hope you don't get too emotional by this, as i stated earlier i'm assuming,
well, at least you knew how is it feel when people generalizing your religion by few bad apple.

i ask question because i want to know, i don't want anything else.

Do you really think Hitler or the Serbs did any of that? I doubt it, but like you said, We're not God or psychic. However, "by their fruits you shall know them," and Hitler did not have very good fruit, did he? So, based on my assumption that they probably were NOT Christians, and assuming that's true, they would be in hell today. Period.

i need an answer assuming they're christian.
is it like what you said?, they'll be in heaven, period!

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Could you please restate that?

sorry, for the inconvenient lol

If God never offered atonement for sin, human will overwhelm in the original sin and they own personal sin, if human merely repent(like muslim), it's also will never enough to redempt it.

 

[Phil12123]

i hope you don't get too emotional by this, as i stated earlier i'm assuming, well, at least you knew how is it feel when people generalizing your religion by few bad apple.

Yes, people shouldn't generalize a religion by a few bad apples. There is a difference, though. You might have a point regarding the Serbs---I don't know enough about them to say. But in the case of Hitler, I cannot imagine anyone mistaking HIM for a Christian. Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute. If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.

On the other hand, many non-Muslims see ALL of the 911 terrorists as Muslims following their holy book, which has plenty of justification in their minds with the idea of slaying the infidels, etc. And undoubtely the terrorists and encouragers of suicide bombing view you as a backslider or worse in not joining their jihads. So a lot of non-Muslims would actually see the Jew-hating Hitler as more closely aligned with Jew-hating Palestinian Muslims, etc. than with Christians. In fact, it seems like some Jew-hating Muslim extremist has advocated "finishing the job Hitler left unfinished." I can't remember who I heard that said that.

i need an answer assuming they're christian.
is it like what you said?, they'll be in heaven, period!

As I said, to assume they are Christian does not compute. If you want to give me more information, like, they repented and believed the Gospel on their death beds before they died, then they are in Heaven. Period. If not, they are in hell. Period.

If God never offered atonement for sin, human will overwhelm in the original sin and they own personal sin, if human merely repent(like muslim), it's also will never enough to redempt it.

Let me see if I understand your question. Are you asking this: If God never offered atonement for sin, and humans were overwhelmed in original sin and their own personal sins...if they merely repent (like Muslims say to), is that also never enough to redeem them?

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

Repentance is merely a change of mind, it is not payment for the wrong you are repenting of. When a person repents, he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God and has a godly sorrow for his sins. Before that repentance, his sin was not a concern to him; he did not see his sin as God sees it---a wicked offense. He sees it as no big deal. His repentance, or change of mind, makes him then think, "uh oh, I have offended a holy God and I'm in big trouble. I need to deal with that sin." He wants to stop it and turn away from it. But in his own power he cannot do that. That is why I say a repentant sinner is one who wants to turn from his sin. So he turns to God for the power to do that.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

Yes, people shouldn't generalize a religion by a few bad apples. There is a difference, though. You might have a point regarding the Serbs---I don't know enough about them to say. But in the case of Hitler, I cannot imagine anyone mistaking HIM for a Christian. Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute. If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.

yeah i'm insane. thanx.

On the other hand, many non-Muslims see ALL of the 911 terrorists as Muslims following their holy book, which has plenty of justification in their minds with the idea of slaying the infidels, etc

yeah! every single Muslim that involved in war in this world throughout century is just simply for fun. we're evil by nature and don't deserve to share this world with other sinless and innocent peoples.

And undoubtely the terrorists and encouragers of suicide bombing view you as a backslider or worse in not joining their jihads. So a lot of non-Muslims would actually see the Jew-hating Hitler as more closely aligned with Jew-hating Palestinian Muslims, etc. than with Christians. In fact, it seems like some Jew-hating Muslim extremist has advocated "finishing the job Hitler left unfinished." I can't remember who I heard that said that.

now we're Hitler lovers too.

As I said, to assume they are Christian does not compute. If you want to give me more information, like, they repented and believed the Gospel on their death beds before they died, then they are in Heaven. Period. If not, they are in hell. Period.

my original question is what if sinful christian died eventhough deep in they heart They have no doubt Jesus is their only savior.

But i must admit this question is based from my understanding of human nature, i thought no human are obsolute righteous or evil. most will have mix of it...you dont have to answer this if you dont want to.

it seems like ur saying if they're Christian they will never be evildoer.
if they're evildoer therefore they're not Christian, even we don't know what's in their Hearts.

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

well, i understand now.

Repentance is merely a change of mind, it is not payment for the wrong you are repenting of. When a person repents, he sees himself as a guilty sinner before a holy God and has a godly sorrow for his sins. Before that repentance, his sin was not a concern to him; he did not see his sin as God sees it---a wicked offense. He sees it as no big deal. His repentance, or change of mind, makes him then think, "uh oh, I have offended a holy God and I'm in big trouble. I need to deal with that sin." He wants to stop it and turn away from it. But in his own power he cannot do that. That is why I say a repentant sinner is one who wants to turn from his sin. So he turns to God for the power to do that.

your View about Repentance clearly different with me.

 

[Phil12123]

yeah i'm insane. thanx.

I wasn't saying YOU are insane. People in general.

yeah! every single Muslim that involved in war in this world throughout century is just simply for fun. we're evil by nature and don't deserve to share this world with other sinless and innocent peoples.

Now that's what I call "generalization"!! And how you draw that generalization from what I said, I have no idea. But yes, you (and everyone else) are evil by nature, but there are no "sinless and innocent peoples."

now we're Hitler lovers too.

You say, "we're" so does that mean YOU are a Jew-hating Palestinian Muslim? Why would you want to put yourself in that group? I didn't.

my original question is what if sinful christian died even though deep in they heart They have no doubt Jesus is their only savior.

But i must admit this question is based from my understanding of human nature, i thought no human are obsolute righteous or evil. most will have mix of it...you dont have to answer this if you dont want to.

it seems like ur saying if they're Christian they will never be evildoer.
if they're evildoer therefore they're not Christian, even we don't know what's in their Hearts.

No, I never said Christians never do evil things, but when you pose your hypothetical with someone like Hitler, I have to dispute it. What I was trying to make sure of was, whether the evildoer did in fact, at some point, repent and believe the Gospel before he died. If so, he is in heaven, no matter what evil you want to assume. All that evil, every single sin, has been paid for by Jesus at Calvary. This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

yeah i get it, i apologize for going off topic

 

[snakelegs]

Jesus was brought up Jewish and He was sent to the Jews as their Messiah. His first disciples were all Jewish. So how does a follower of the Jew's Messiah end up murdering 6 million Jews? That does not compute.

it doesn't compute, but nevertheless it has been the history of christianity. the church is deep in jewish blood.

If someone generalizes Christianity based on Hitler, they're insane.[/COLOR]

this i agree with.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

Salam.

If God never offered atonement for sin, and humans were overwhelmed in original sin and their own personal sins...if they merely repent (like Muslims say to), is that also never enough to redeem them?

plz don't misquote me..what i meant like Muslim is like muslim do

back to the topic.

esus died for our sins, ALL of them---past, present, and future. It is not just to provide a "chance of redemption" for later sins. ALL our sins are paid for IN FULL. So, the sins I commit next year were also paid for at Calvary. Jesus does not have to die again to cover those sins too. His ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice pays for them ALL. When a Christian sins, he has the promise of 1 John 1:9, that if he confesses his sins, God is faithful and just to forgive his sins and to cleanse him of all unrighteousness. Plus, he has an Advocate before the Father, making intercession for all believers as their faithful High Priest (1 John 2:1; Hebrews 4:14-16; 7:23-28; 8:1).

okay.

Correct, merely repenting is not enough to redeem them and keep them out of hell. They have to pay for their own personal sins if there is no atonement offered by God. If God never offered atonement for sin, there is only that one outcome: everyone is doomed to pay for their own sins. On the other hand, with the atonement God offers, there are the two alternatives: 1) You pay for your sins, or 2) you believe Jesus paid for them and then you get into heaven free. Payment already made. You don't have to pay for them. But if you reject that payment, you have to make your own payment.

okay

This does not give any Christian a license to sin without consequences, but those consequences do not include hell, but rather chastening or chastisement from the Lord as a father would discipline his wayward child. See Hebrews 12:5-11.

What kind of punishment that is not include Hell?

:?