"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[snakelegs]

the shahadah

 

[vpb]

Yes, if you experience what Zahid or Paul did!

You have no clue how much worthy that banner is. a person who embraced that banner, would not drop it, as long as he has his mind in his head.

What does the banner mean Allah is Great?

It means:

La ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulallah
There is no diety of worship except Allah, and Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah.

 

[Redeemed]

You have no clue how much worthy that banner is. a person who embraced that banner, would not drop it, as long as he has his mind in his head.


It means:

La ilaha illallah Muhammed rasulallah
There is no diety of worship except Allah, and Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah.

Thanks for sharing that. Let us get back on topic. I know that you are very strong in what you believe, but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually. Just think about how the Jews would slay a lamb for their sins on a daily bases. God, therefore, set up his lamb so that one sacrifice could be made forever for the remission of sin. It is even prophesied in Isaiah 53 that God would raise up someone who would take away our sins and by his stripes we are healed. It goes along with Old Testament Scriptures and even Daniel the prophet said that when the anti Christ comes he is going to set up the abomination that makes it desolate. The anti Christ is coming (The devil in the flesh). He will be doing signs and wonders and getting the world to wonder after him. He will set up a daily sacrifice and then cause it to stop by setting up the abomination that makes all desolate. At first, the Jews may believe he is the messiah. There is coming a dark time for earth such as the world has never known nor shall it be ever again. Every thing in the Old Testament points to Jesus from the rock Moses hits to the holding up of the serpent in the wilderness. The children of Israel had to look at the serpent to be healed. That serpent represented Christ because he became sin for us so his righteousness could fall on us. Even as the blood was put on the door post for the passover that represents Christ’s blood. Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

 

[vpb]

1. Abraham's sacrifice was not anything else but submission to Allah, so don't confuse that with Jesus.
2. Apart from submission, we sacrifice the qurban to help the poor, did people give Jesus's meat to other people?
3. sacrifice in Islam is about sacrificing animal not human. Jesus was a human.
4. You are defending your point by telling me from OD , NT. I don't accept them. I already have Qur'an to refer to.

but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually.

People can believe some thing make sense, but actually they don't. personally I don't think it makes sense at all, bc first of all if doesn't make sense to me God to have a son, or God to appear in human flesh. God is High from doing such things.
second, it doesn't make sense for me to inherit the sins of Adam, same as you wouldn't go to jail bc someone else did a crime.
third, there is no purpose to live a life, if Jesus has already died for our sins.

Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

22:37. It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

so don't try to judge here with christian rules.

 

[Woodrow]

Thanks for sharing that. Let us get back on topic. I know that you are very strong in what you believe, but I do submit to you that the idea of Jesus being God's sacrificial gift for our atonement makes perfect sense spiritually. Just think about how the Jews would slay a lamb for their sins on a daily bases. God, therefore, set up his lamb so that one sacrifice could be made forever for the remission of sin. It is even prophesied in Isaiah 53 that God would raise up someone who would take away our sins and by his stripes we are healed. It goes along with Old Testament Scriptures and even Daniel the prophet said that when the anti Christ comes he is going to set up the abomination that makes it desolate. The anti Christ is coming (The devil in the flesh). He will be doing signs and wonders and getting the world to wonder after him. He will set up a daily sacrifice and then cause it to stop by setting up the abomination that makes all desolate. At first, the Jews may believe he is the messiah. There is coming a dark time for earth such as the world has never known nor shall it be ever again. Every thing in the Old Testament points to Jesus from the rock Moses hits to the holding up of the serpent in the wilderness. The children of Israel had to look at the serpent to be healed. That serpent represented Christ because he became sin for us so his righteousness could fall on us. Even as the blood was put on the door post for the passover that represents Christ’s blood. Without our souls being sprinkled by the blood of the lamb we are dead just as the first born were killed.

Do you really understand what the Jewish view on animal sacrifices was/is? It had nothing to do with salvation or the washing away of sins.

Here is the Jewish view from a Jewish site:

Ah: here is the central issue of the debate. The view I subscribe to, and do most Conservative Jews (who have an opinion on this) is that the Torah, regardless whether or not you believe it was given by G-d, was given to a particular people, at a particular time. And at that time, they were surrounded by tribes of other people who vehemently believed in the necessity of sacrifice to cleanse one's soul (or whatever).
Therefore, even though atonement still required the person carrying the guilt to atone directly for their sins (if they stole, repay the loss, if they injured, make some kind of restitution, etc.) the Torah allowed for the symbolic atonement. This is what people expected then.



>> If the Jewish people never accepted the idea of vicarious atonement, why is it spelled out in detail in the Torah how to do animal sacrifices for means of atonement for sins (sin offering)as a requirement to do? Why does it say in Leviticus 17 that blood is the atonement for the soul?

So that accomplishing animal sacrifices would be so incredibly difficult, that people would readily accept prayer in its stead. Mind you, prayer doesn't accomplish vicarious atonement, either. Again, it is still the thing you do AFTER you have actively atoned.



>> Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Yes, excellent citation. And context helps make it much clearer...

In the paragraphs above (starting at Lev. 17:1) there is this whole discussion about NOT slaughtering animals out in the fields. Rather, "So that the Children of Israel will bring their feast-offerings that they have been slaughtering on the open field, and they shall bring them to Ha'shem to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting to the Kohen; and they shall slaughter them as peace-offerings... ...They shall no longer slaughter their offerings to the demons after whom they stray; this shall be an eternal decree to them for their generations."

Bit by bit here. First, notice the reason they must bring their offerings to the Tent of Meeting? Because these folks simply weren't used to being "The Children of Israel" yet. These folks were truly proto-proto-Jews. They were still offering up every animal they slaughtered to appease the "the demons" that is, they were still worshipping idols.

Source: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Conservative-Judaism-951/Animal-Sacrifice.htm


The Jews never did and still don't believe that animal sacrifices and blood could wash away sins. This blood concept is a later innovation by Christians. It was not a part of Judaism.

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

 

[vpb]

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

that's why Ibn Abbas comments on last two verses of Surah Al-Fatiha:
{ ٱهْدِنَا ٱلصِّرَاطَ ٱلْمُسْتَقِيمَ }(Guide us to the straight path) guide us to the established Religion that You are pleased with, i.e. Islam. It is also said that this means: make us firm in holding fast to it. It is also said that the straight path refers to Allah's Book, and guidance to this means guidance to that which it prescribes as lawful or unlawful and to the exposition of its content.

{ صِرَاطَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ ٱلْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِم وَلاَ ٱلضَّآلِّينَ }

(The path of those whom Thou hast favoured), the Religion of those whom You have blessed with the Religion and who are the followers of Moses, before the blessings of Allah deserted them, in that He shaded them with a white cloud and sent down on them honey and quails when they were in the wilderness. It is also said that (the path of those whom Thou hast favoured) refers to the prophets. (Not of those who earn Thine anger), not the religion of the Jews who earned Your anger, whom You forsook and whose hearts You did not protect until they became complaisant. (Nor of those who go astray), nor the religion of the Christians who erred from Islam. Amen: thus shall be its custodians; it is also said that Amen means let it be so. It is also said that it means: O our Lord! Do with us as we have requested You. And Allah knows best'





may Allah swt guide us all. Ameen.

 

[Redeemed]

Do you really understand what the Jewish view on animal sacrifices was/is? It had nothing to do with salvation or the washing away of sins.

Here is the Jewish view from a Jewish site:



Source: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Conservative-Judaism-951/Animal-Sacrifice.htm


The Jews never did and still don't believe that animal sacrifices and blood could wash away sins. This blood concept is a later innovation by Christians. It was not a part of Judaism.

That is not an error Jesus(as) would have made because he was a devout Jew and as a devout Jew had submitted to Allah(swt) and was therefore Muslim. His words about blood washing away sins of the world would not have been his words as he would not have been taught the error that blood can wash away sins.

It even says it in the NT Bible that animals could never wash away sins. These things were just a shadow. Just like God asking Abraham to sacifice is son. These were all shadows of what was to come. God would never ask us to do something He wouldn't do Himself. For God so loved the world that He gave is only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16
:statisfie

 

[vpb]

For God so loved the world that He gave is only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3:16

I've memorized this verse by heart.

It even says it in the NT Bible that animals could never wash away sins. These things were just a shadow. Just like God asking Abraham to sacifice is son. These were all shadows of what was to come. God would never ask us to do something He wouldn't do Himself

don't try to twist things to make your ideas fit.

 

[Redeemed]

I've memorized this verse by heart.



don't try to twist things to make your ideas fit.

Bro, I am not trying to twist anything. i just call it the way God shows me! There is a reasons Christians are persecuted so severely. They are shinning a light for all to see. The devil hates that. So he is working hard behind the stage of life to bring death with his deception.

 

[Woodrow]

Bro, I am not trying to twist anything. i just call it the way God shows me! There is a reasons Christians are persecuted so severely. They are shinning a light for all to see. The devil hates that. So he is working hard behind the stage of life to bring death with his deception.

Perhaps that may be the reason Muslims have been and are persecuted? we are persecuted against daily in almost all things we do. Often by the words of well intentioned people, who can not see how strongly they persecute us. A shariah state can not even exist without non-believers swarming in with the agenda to "save" the people.

Our Noble Qur'an is treated with disrespect by the unknowing who misread it. the internet is filled with anti-Islam sentiments.

Christians and Jews are not the only ones who have faced persecution. However, for at least 1000 years no non-Christians have invaded Christian lands with the intent of driving Christians away from Christianity. But, today Christians not only invade Muslim countries with the intent of ending Islam they also have no limits in spewing their Evangelical fallacies against every Muslim they can find on the internet. There is a frequent barrage of people that come to this site with the soul intent of driving us away from following Allah(swt). Many of the posts and threads are so full of bitterness and hate that they are deleted before most members see them.

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

 

[vpb]

Bro, I am not trying to twist anything. i just call it the way God shows me! There is a reasons Christians are persecuted so severely. They are shinning a light for all to see. The devil hates that. So he is working hard behind the stage of life to bring death with his deception.

How much do you know about devil? I see that your view upon devil, is just as those movies about evil . lolll ;D


Devil doesn't really work the way you think he works. If you would study about Islam, you would be surprised how the devil works.

So don't really try to tell muslims what devil does or who he is, bc we have so much information about him.


simple question just for fun :

"Whom does the devil spends more time with, believers or non-believers, and why?"

 

[MustafaMc]

There is a frequent barrage of people that come to this site with the soul intent of driving us away from following Allah(swt). Many of the posts and threads are so full of bitterness and hate that they are deleted before most members see them.

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

One of the most vehement of these Christians is also one with a lot of recent posts on this and other related threads. This person has been likened to none other than the infamous Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. A quick google search of "Pat Robertson Islam" turns up many quotes that reflect the tone of the person I have mentioned - yet he speaks repeatedly of "love".

 

[Redeemed]

Perhaps that may be the reason Muslims have been and are persecuted? we are persecuted against daily in almost all things we do. Often by the words of well intentioned people, who can not see how strongly they persecute us. A shariah state can not even exist without non-believers swarming in with the agenda to "save" the people.

Our Noble Qur'an is treated with disrespect by the unknowing who misread it. the internet is filled with anti-Islam sentiments.

Christians and Jews are not the only ones who have faced persecution. However, for at least 1000 years no non-Christians have invaded Christian lands with the intent of driving Christians away from Christianity. But, today Christians not only invade Muslim countries with the intent of ending Islam they also have no limits in spewing their Evangelical fallacies against every Muslim they can find on the internet. There is a frequent barrage of people that come to this site with the soul intent of driving us away from following Allah(swt). Many of the posts and threads are so full of bitterness and hate that they are deleted before most members see them.

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

Where are Christians persecuting Muslims today? If you are calling what us Christians are doing or just me on this forum persecution, then what do you call Muslims killing 300 laymen and a chopping a pastors hand? What about the pulling of finger nails out of a Pakistani Christian revert, and what do you call what was done to 17 year old Mary Khowry during the Lebanese civil war 1975 -1992? Muslim fanatics forced Mary and family to their knees at gun point saying, "If you don't become Muslims, you will be shot." After all were shot, she was the only one who remained alive with arms spread out in the shape of a cross - she was paralized. Woodrow, please don't try to reverse ever thing I say back on me. Use your own ideas, thoughts and information sources. Thanks for understanding. Moreover, I think you are confusing love for persecution. I am not asking you to stop being a Muslim, but I am asking you to develop a relationship with Jesus bc he lives.

 

[Phil12123]

No Islamic site on the internet is free from evangelicals that will try their best to drive us away from Islam. If that is not bigotry and persecution, I don't know what it is.

I will tell you what it is. LOVE. Maybe not in all cases, but in mine, that's what it is---love for your lost souls. If I didn't give two hoots about where you will spend eternity, I would not waste my breath, or typing, to share with you the love of God and His desire for you to have a personal relationship with Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, from a Christian viewpoint, it is Islam and its "straight path" that will take you straight to hell, based on its denial of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for your sins. So, if I can "drive you away from" what will take you to hell, I would be remiss if I failed to do so.

And I understand your viewpoint that you think Christians are on their own path straight to hell, so if you don't do what you can to drive us away from that path, in a loving and respectful way, I would consider you remiss as well.

The bottom line is not bigotry or persecution, or at least shouldn't be, but true concern for the other person's soul and where it will spend eternity.

 

[Phil12123]

One of the most vehement of these Christians is also one with a lot of recent posts on this and other related threads. This person has been likened to none other than the infamous Pat Robertson of the 700 Club. A quick google search of "Pat Robertson Islam" turns up many quotes that reflect the tone of the person I have mentioned - yet he speaks repeatedly of "love".

I did a quick Google search as you suggested and did not come up with much more than that---Pat Robertson and his comments about Islam. So, who are you talking about that has been likened to him, with posts on this thread? Just curious.

 

[MustafaMc]

And I understand your viewpoint that you think Christians are on their own path straight to hell, so if you don't do what you can to drive us away from that path, in a loving and respectful way, I would consider you remiss as well.

The bottom line is not bigotry or persecution, or at least shouldn't be, but true concern for the other person's soul and where it will spend eternity.

I see that it is the responsibility of Muslims to spread the Message of Islam and to witness the Oneness of Allah to unbelievers. We Muslims realize that we can't guide anyone to the Truth, that quidance comes only from Allah. To those unbelievers in the Message (Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists, etc) who ask questions genuinely trying to learn about Islam, we are obligated to share what we know about Islam in the best manner possible.

We also feel a responsibility to combat falsehood that is clear-as-day to us, but that you and other Christians hold as truth. The most blatant of enemies to Islam are those who are most evangelical in trying to misguide us to the worship of a man, Jesus (pbuh). We can't sit by idly and watch falsehood go unchallenged. Please, note that even the most evangelical of Christians serve a purpose in strengthening our resolve to the worship of One God and they challenge us to find Quranic verses and hadiths to counter their posts.

 

[جوري]

isn't it obvious? I mean I am not even following this thread and I can tell right away whom exactly Bros. Moose is referring to.. are you kidding? ;D ;D
look at the bright side of us being such heritics, there will be more heaven for you to share with Tony Bennett....

peace!

 

[Redeemed]

I will tell you what it is. LOVE. Maybe not in all cases, but in mine, that's what it is---love for your lost souls. If I didn't give two hoots about where you will spend eternity, I would not waste my breath, or typing, to share with you the love of God and His desire for you to have a personal relationship with Him through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. Obviously, from a Christian viewpoint, it is Islam and its "straight path" that will take you straight to hell, based on its denial of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for your sins. So, if I can "drive you away from" what will take you to hell, I would be remiss if I failed to do so.

And I understand your viewpoint that you think Christians are on their own path straight to hell, so if you don't do what you can to drive us away from that path, in a loving and respectful way, I would consider you remiss as well.

The bottom line is not bigotry or persecution, or at least shouldn't be, but true concern for the other person's soul and where it will spend eternity.

Ditto

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Muslims don't have eternal security. They don't know they are saved what difference does it make to be on the Islam's straight path as you call it if they are not guranteed or secured in their salvation? In other words, you could live as a good Muslim all your life and ALLAH MIGHT DECIED TO SEND YOU TO HELL. Since Christianity is based on the work of Christ, we are not depending on our works for salvation; nevertheless, we have good works, because we life by faith in him that died for us and rose ever making intercession. We have Jesus praying to Allah for us.

How can you be so foolish as to say that you KNOW you are saved and going to Heaven? I envision Christians being so arrogant as to stand before Allah on Judgement Day and asking straight away without a need for personal judgement, "OK, where's my spot in Heaven?" That would require absolute certainty that every word of the Bible is the literal Word of God and that the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute. Well, we Muslims have put forth much in dispute of these claims. You can strongly believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus (pbuh) was God incarnate and died on the cross for your sins and you can BELIEVE, based on those beliefs, that you are going to Heaven, but there is no way this side of Judgement Day that you can KNOW you are saved! The amazing thing to me is that you don't seem to understand this concept.

We Muslims believe that we are going to Heaven based on the Promises that Allah made to us repeatedly in the Quran. That belief and hope is enough for me.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

How can you be so foolish as to say that you KNOW you are saved and going to Heaven? I envision Christians being so arrogant as to stand before Allah on Judgement Day and asking straight away without a need for personal judgement, "OK, where's my spot in Heaven?" That would require absolute certainty that every word of the Bible is the literal Word of God and that the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute. Well, we Muslims have put forth much in dispute of these claims. You can strongly believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus (pbuh) was God incarnate and died on the cross for your sins and you can BELIEVE, based on those beliefs, that you are going to Heaven, but there is no way this side of Judgement Day that you can KNOW you are saved! The amazing thing to me is that you don't seem to understand this concept.

We Muslims believe that we are going to Heaven based on the Promises that Allah made to us repeatedly in the Quran. That belief and hope is enough for me.

What does pbuh and swt stand for? Take it easy before you stone me. We as Christians "believe that we are going to Heaven based on the Promises that Allah (God) made to us repeatedly in the Quran" (more importantly in the Bible). That belief and hope is enough for me" too to know what I have by faith.