"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Keltoi]

I read some of the link you sent and now I am more confused than ever. I just read a little to get the gist of where it was going. Here is the part that stands out:

And I want to show you the statement of the Study of Islam and Democracy, signed on by dozens and dozens of individuals and groups where they said, "We wish again to state unequivocally that neither the al-Qaeda organization nor Usama bin Laden represents Islam or reflects Muslim beliefs and practice. Rather, groups like al-Qaeda have misused and abused Islam in order to fit their own radical and indeed anti-Islamic agenda."

And this is again signatories all over the place, dozens. They speak for mainstream Muslims in America and worldwide.

ROBERTSON: You know, I hate to tell you, Alan, but that is absolute falsehood, not on your part, but on the part of those who signed it. All you have to do is read the writings of Mohammed in the Koran. He urges people to attack the infidels. He urges his followers to kill Christians and Jews. He talks about eradicating all of the Jews. This man was an absolute wild-eyed fanatic. He was a robber and a brigand. And to say that these terrorists distort Islam, they're carrying out Islam.

I used to believe just the way Pat R. spoke, but since I have been on this forum I started to see it more like Alan states, but now I am confused, bc I looked at the persecuted Christians and the terrorist attacks and I compare it with the way you are and there is such a blantant contrast. I think the scary thing is Woodrow is right about Islam being an individualized religion. I honestly believe that there are Muslims that think and believe like the former statements, but there are those who believe and act on the later. I am not sure you know the path you are taking yourself and what it is eventually leading you to do. Muhammad does state in the Koran to attack the infidels. My feelings are mix about Islam at this point, and it is a very powerful and scary religion to me. It might sound like I am glorifying Islam, but I am not. I have a gut feeling if it keeps growing the way it is, I will eventually be martyred by a Muslim, because I have no intentions to follow Islam, and it won't be long before we are confronted with it at our doorsteps. :exhausted :rollseyes

A high birth rate is often the deciding factor. Christians, especially in the West, are having less children, as all Western peoples are.

As for Islam being individualized, I think that is true and false at the same time. Christianity could be described in the same way. We have our religious leaders, but they have no direct control of our lives. Unless brainwashed by a cult-like group, i.e. Jim Jones or Al-Qaeda. Some people are easily manipulated by religious language into doing things they would never have done before.

 

[Redeemed]

A high birth rate is often the deciding factor. Christians, especially in the West, are having less children, as all Western peoples are.

As for Islam being individualized, I think that is true and false at the same time. Christianity could be described in the same way. We have our religious leaders, but they have no direct control of our lives. Unless brainwashed by a cult-like group, i.e. Jim Jones or Al-Qaeda. Some people are easily manipulated by religious language into doing things they would never have done before.

Thanks that helps shed a little light on the matter for me; nevertheless, they are still growing fast even if through birth. I could also understand the power of sects or cults that spawn from Islam just like we have those that come out of Christianity, but there is the Koran that states hostility toward the infidel which is you and me.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

How can you be so foolish as to say that you KNOW you are saved and going to Heaven? I envision Christians being so arrogant as to stand before Allah on Judgement Day and asking straight away without a need for personal judgement, "OK, where's my spot in Heaven?"

Your thinking that it is foolish for a Christian to say he KNOWS he is saved and going to heaven, leads me to believe you never could say that yourself when you supposedly were a Christian. And, of course, you can't lose something you never had, so I guess you never really had it.

The vision you have of arrogant Christians at the judgment is so wrong that it also confirms for me that you never knew what it was to be a Christian. And yet you were familiar with "Amazing Grace" that talks of "how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!" That is how Christians view themselves and praise God for the grace of God that saved them, as evil, wicked sinners (wretches), not deserving one drop of Christ's precious Blood, but being cleansed by it of all their sins. There is no room for pride or arrogance because it is ALL God's doing, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:9).

That would require absolute certainty that every word of the Bible is the literal Word of God and that the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute. Well, we Muslims have put forth much in dispute of these claims. You can strongly believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that Jesus (pbuh) was God incarnate and died on the cross for your sins and you can BELIEVE, based on those beliefs, that you are going to Heaven, but there is no way this side of Judgement Day that you can KNOW you are saved! The amazing thing to me is that you don't seem to understand this concept.

Yes, we Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God and the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute, and nothing the devil says will convince me otherwise. The devil's lies say we should work our way to heaven and reject the WORK of redemption of Jesus at the cross...because it never happened.

The promises of the Word of God tell us that:

1 John 5:
12. He who has the Son has life [that would include ME]; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life [that would include YOU].
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [that means ME], that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is not arrogance for the Christian to BELIEVE that, and he is NOT believing it unless he can say, I KNOW I have eternal life! I don't see why you find it is so hard to understand that concept.

We Muslims believe that we are going to Heaven based on the Promises that Allah made to us repeatedly in the Quran. That belief and hope is enough for me.

Well, this is the summary we agreed states the Muslim position:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

I'm tempted to say...good luck! But it will take a lot more than luck---actually it's an impossibility---for someone who is a sinner and rejects God's payment for those sins, to get into Heaven.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Your thinking that it is foolish for a Christian to say he KNOWS he is saved and going to heaven, leads me to believe you never could say that yourself when you supposedly were a Christian. And, of course, you can't lose something you never had, so I guess you never really had it.

The vision you have of arrogant Christians at the judgment is so wrong that it also confirms for me that you never knew what it was to be a Christian. And yet you were familiar with "Amazing Grace" that talks of "how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!" That is how Christians view themselves and praise God for the grace of God that saved them, as evil, wicked sinners (wretches), not deserving one drop of Christ's precious Blood, but being cleansed by it of all their sins. There is no room for pride or arrogance because it is ALL God's doing, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:9).




Yes, we Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God and the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute, and nothing the devil says will convince me otherwise. The devil's lies say we should work our way to heaven and reject the WORK of redemption of Jesus at the cross...because it never happened.

The promises of the Word of God tell us that:

1 John 5:
12. He who has the Son has life [that would include ME]; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life [that would include YOU].
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [that means ME], that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is not arrogance for the Christian to BELIEVE that, and he is NOT believing it unless he can say, I KNOW I have eternal life! I don't see why you find it is so hard to understand that concept.




Well, this is the summary we agreed states the Muslim position:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

I'm tempted to say...good luck! But it will take a lot more than luck---actually it's an impossibility---for someone who is a sinner and rejects God's payment for those sins, to get into Heaven.

Well, I don't have to answer to you or anybody else for whether or not I was a "True Born-Again Christian". It is a moot point because I sure ain't one now. That is in and of itself proof enough to you and other Christians that I wasn't really "saved" anyway, but you know what I don't really care what you believe about my status as a Christian before 1982. Today I am a Muslim and my prayer is to die not except as a Muslim.

You will stand before Allah on Judgement Day and so will I. Perhaps this says something to you, but most likely it won't - I choose my hope in the Mercy of Allah over your certainty in the Blood of Jesus (pbuh) for my salvation.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Your thinking that it is foolish for a Christian to say he KNOWS he is saved and going to heaven, leads me to believe you never could say that yourself when you supposedly were a Christian. And, of course, you can't lose something you never had, so I guess you never really had it.

The vision you have of arrogant Christians at the judgment is so wrong that it also confirms for me that you never knew what it was to be a Christian. And yet you were familiar with "Amazing Grace" that talks of "how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!" That is how Christians view themselves and praise God for the grace of God that saved them, as evil, wicked sinners (wretches), not deserving one drop of Christ's precious Blood, but being cleansed by it of all their sins. There is no room for pride or arrogance because it is ALL God's doing, "not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:9).




Yes, we Christians believe the Bible is the Word of God and the Christian plan of salvation is a certain fact beyond dispute, and nothing the devil says will convince me otherwise. The devil's lies say we should work our way to heaven and reject the WORK of redemption of Jesus at the cross...because it never happened.

The promises of the Word of God tell us that:

1 John 5:
12. He who has the Son has life [that would include ME]; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life [that would include YOU].
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God [that means ME], that you may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

It is not arrogance for the Christian to BELIEVE that, and he is NOT believing it unless he can say, I KNOW I have eternal life! I don't see why you find it is so hard to understand that concept.




Well, this is the summary we agreed states the Muslim position:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

I'm tempted to say...good luck! But it will take a lot more than luck---actually it's an impossibility---for someone who is a sinner and rejects God's payment for those sins, to get into Heaven.

James 2:19 is a good verse bro. The devils believe in one God. They fear and tremble. I don't understand why Muslims honor Jesus but don't seek to have a relationship with him. They believe he never died; so they must believe he lives. Why don't they ask him to show them how he feels about our relationship with him and theirs? If Muhammad were still living, I would ask him is there anything he would change in the Quran if he could do it over again. Or what would he want us to know now that he has passed into the hereafter and came back again, but he is dead and Jesus lives. We follow a living King and prophet that leads us to the Father. I am so thankful to have my name written in the lamb's book of life, and I have no trouble believing he is who he said, the son of the living God the hope of glory. He is, or should I say, He is I am?:statisfie

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Well, I don't have to answer to you or anybody else for whether or not I was a "True Born-Again Christian". It is a moot point because I sure ain't one now. That is in and of itself proof enough to you and other Christians that I wasn't really "saved" anyway, but you know what I don't really care what you believe about my status as a Christian before 1982. Today I am a Muslim and my prayer is to die not except as a Muslim.

A person can be saved and not have the assurance of salvation, so he might not know or realize his position in Christ is such that he can KNOW he's saved and going to heaven. So, I suppose it's possible you were saved but never had that assurance and so never said that you knew you're saved and going to heaven. More likely that you were never saved. But, you're right, it is a moot point now, since you reject being saved now.

You will stand before Allah on Judgement Day and so will I. Perhaps this says something to you, but most likely it won't - I choose my hope in the Mercy of Allah over your certainty in the Blood of Jesus (pbuh) for my salvation.

I will stand before JESUS on the judgment day, and so will you.

John 5:
22. "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23. "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Romans 14:10 --- "...For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

Yes, and it is strange to me that the choice you mention is not a no-brainer for everyone---certainty vs. hope; Jesus paying for your sins vs. YOU paying for them... unless ... maybe... your hope becomes... reality....maybe.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Yes, and it is strange to me that the choice you mention is not a no-brainer for everyone---certainty vs. hope; Jesus paying for your sins vs. YOU paying for them... unless ... maybe... your hope becomes... reality....maybe.

Don't put words in my mouth! I said that I rely upon the Mercy of Allah straight away for the forgiveness of my sins.

The heaviest of deeds on the Balance of Judgement Day is testimony "la ilaha illallah" or la=no, ilaha=god, illa=except, and Allah=God. I will have to give an account for each deed and word of my life, but I don't rely upon my good deeds to earn me Paradise. I try to live by the example set by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but my hope is in the Mercy of Allah that is immeasurable for the believers.

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Don't put words in my mouth! I said that I rely upon the Mercy of Allah straight away for the forgiveness of my sins.

The heaviest of deeds on the Balance of Judgement Day is testimony "la ilaha illallah" or la=no, ilaha=god, illa=except, and Allah=God. I will have to give an account for each deed and word of my life, but I don't rely upon my good deeds to earn me Paradise. I try to live by the example set by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but my hope is in the Mercy of Allah that is immeasurable for the believers.

Yes, you are putting your hope in Allah's mercy because without it, you have to pay for all your own bad deeds and bad words over an entire lifetime. But you are never assured of that mercy until after the judgment. In other words, you don't have assurance NOW that you will in fact receive that mercy. Correct? Also, are you still in agreement with the following?

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

 

[vpb]

lol, it seems i'm out of date with the forum.

Yes, you are putting your hope in Allah's mercy because without it, you have to pay for all your own bad deeds and bad words over an entire lifetime. But you are never assured of that mercy until after the judgment. In other words, you don't have assurance NOW that you will in fact receive that mercy. Correct? Also, are you still in agreement with the following?

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

If we try to do our best, as Allah swt told us to do, that his mercy is guaranteed. But can we say " I will go to heaven" , certainly not, bc we don't know really good our hearts, what if I am committing shirk all the time while I don't know (astagfirullah), what if I have arrogance in my heart?? ......etc.
so our duty as muslims, is to do as best as we can, and by Allah's will, he will give mercy to us, as he promised paradise for people who avoid haram, and complete duties , and act based upon teachings of Islam.

And I don't know why u guys keep talking on this, this is like the test,



Are you sure 100% you will pass the test??? No.

Did the teacher say to you that if you study your pass will be guaranteed ??? Yes.

Is it possible that if you study as much as you can you will pass the test? Yes.

If you don't study, is there a chance to pass the test?? (not do prayers, give charity, ....) Maybe. Low chance

If you don't show up on test (commit shirk), is it possible to pass the test? No way.

Do you know what's gonna be on test?? (do u have the guidance) . Yes, read the textbooks.





Volume 9, Book 93, Number 475: Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
The Prophet said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision .

 

[Phil12123]

If we try to do our best, as Allah swt told us to do, that his mercy is guaranteed. But can we say " I will go to heaven" , certainly not, bc we don't know really good our hearts, what if I am committing shirk all the time while I don't know (astagfirullah), what if I have arrogance in my heart?? ......etc. So our duty as muslims, is to do as best as we can, and by Allah's will, he will give mercy to us, as he promised paradise for people who avoid haram, and complete duties, and act based upon teachings of Islam.

So perhaps we need to rewrite that paragraph:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

to read as follows:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing the best they can, not committing shirk or having arrogance in their hearts, avoiding haram, completing all duties and acting based upon teachings of Islam, doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

NOW, have I left anything out?

And I don't know why u guys keep talking on this

It may not interest you, but can you think of a more important subject than what a person needs to do or believe in this life in order to be in Heaven and avoid hellfire for all eternity?

Are you sure 100% you will pass the test??? No.
Did the teacher say to you that if you study your pass will be guaranteed ??? Yes.
Is it possible that if you study as much as you can you will pass the test? Yes.
If you don't study, is there a chance to pass the test?? (not do prayers, give charity, ....) Maybe. Low chance
If you don't show up on test (commit shirk), is it possible to pass the test? No way.
Do you know what's gonna be on test?? (do u have the guidance) . Yes, read the textbooks.

Let see how those questions would be answered by a Christian:

Are you sure 100% you will pass the test??? Yes, because Jesus took the test and passed it for me, in His sinless life and atoning death and resurrection for my sins.

The rest is irrelevant.

 

[Woodrow]

Peace Phil,

There is something about Muslims many non-Muslims can not seem to comprehend. That is: Understanding why we have no need of 100% assurance we will go to Jannah.

I can not say that I am certain I will go to Jannah. But, that does not diminish my desire to submit to Allah(swt). I do know the things he has revealed and he has told us what the traits are of people who will enter into Jannah.

I live my life in trying to follow the Path he has revealed and I trust fully in knowing that he will Judge me with Fairness and Mercy. Why, do I need to know more? It is not going to give me anymore joy and it can only lead me to arrogance.

Have faith, Trust and do what is told. Know the outcome will be just and merciful.

Why fall into the trap of security, and risk failing the rest of the trial of life.

Security is two edged and is as much of a trap as it is hope. To earnestly believe you are truly saved and will go to heaven, is the greatest trap to keep a person from fighting the trials of this life.

 

[Redeemed]

Peace Phil,

There is something about Muslims many non-Muslims can not seem to comprehend. That is: Understanding why we have no need of 100% assurance we will go to Jannah. I understand

I can not say that I am certain I will go to Jannah. But, that does not diminish my desire to submit to Allah(swt). I do know the things he has revealed and he has told us what the traits are of people who will enter into Jannah. I know

I live my life in trying to follow the Path he has revealed and I trust fully in knowing that he will Judge me with Fairness and Mercy. Why, do I need to know more? It is not going to give me anymore joy and it can only lead me to arrogance. To know God is to have etenal life. According to Christianity, if you don't know you have eternal life ; you don't know God

Have faith, Trust and do what is told. Know the outcome will be just and merciful. Why fall into the trap of security, and risk failing the rest of the trial of life. God is just, and he would not leave us in doubt about where we will spend eternity. Our God is not impersonal, indifferent to the details of our lives or aloof; he is close to us even closer than our breath.

Security is two edged and is as much of a trap as it is hope. To earnestly believe you are truly saved and will go to heaven, is the greatest trap to keep a person from fighting the trials of this life.

Everyday is a trial. We have to fight harder than ever before because we are light bearers and the devil is on our case, but Jesus tells us not to fear because he has overcome the world. We are hid in Christ

 

[Woodrow]

Everyday is a trial. We have to fight harder than ever before because we are light bearers and the devil is on our case, but Jesus tells us not to fear because he has overcome the world. We are hid in Christ

We have that same type of faith in God(swt) and fully trust he will do as he has promised. I joyfully accept the will of Allah(swt) as I know it is with the most of fairness and designed by the best of planners.

When one follows the path of Allah(swt) why would we stumble and try to follow somebody who humans try to tell us is God(swt)

 

[Redeemed]

We have that same type of faith in God(swt) and fully trust he will do as he has promised. I joyfully accept the will of Allah(swt) as I know it is with the most of fairness and designed by the best of planners.

When one follows the path of Allah(swt) why would we stumble and try to follow somebody who humans try to tell us is God(swt)

It is Muhammad that tells you God's message and how to follow God's message. Is he not human?

 

[Woodrow]

It is Muhammad that tells you God's message and how to follow God's message. Is he not human?

There is not a word in the Qur'an that came from Muhammad(PBUH) He was only the Messenger delivering the Message.

 

[Redeemed]

There is not a word in the Qur'an that came from Muhammad(PBUH) He was only the Messenger delivering the Message.

I understand, but you didn't answer my question. As God's messenger, was he not human?

 

[Woodrow]

I understand, but you didn't answer my question. As God's messenger, was he not human?

Yes, he was Human.


In the same vein do you believe Moses(PBUH) wrote the 10 commandments? Do you believe those to be the words of God(swt) and Moses was human.

 

[Redeemed]

We have that same type of faith in God(swt) and fully trust he will do as he has promised. I joyfully accept the will of Allah(swt) as I know it is with the most of fairness and designed by the best of planners.

When one follows the path of Allah(swt) why would we stumble and try to follow somebody who humans try to tell us is God(swt)

Well, Muhammad is human, why do you model after him? I trust Jesus as my model and even the apostel Paul. I would rather trust someone who is still living after 2000 years (Jesus) and has done many miracles such as raising the dead, giving sight the the blind, and forgiving people for their sin in regards to how my relationship should be with God instead of a prophet who doubted and feared his revelations were from God at first and who wasn't sure what God was going to do to him. Plus you are using the excuse that the Bible is distorted to reject it when all Bibles confirm that Jesus is the son of God. There is just no way that much recorded history could be distorted.

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Well, Muhammad is human, why do you model after him? I trust Jesus as my model and even the apostel Paul. I would rather trust someone who is still living after 2000 years (Jesus) and has done many miracles such as raising the dead, giving sight the the blind, and forgiving people for their sin in regards to how my relationship should be with God instead of a prophet who doubted and feared his revelations were from God at first and who wasn't sure what God was going to do to him. Plus you are using the excuse that the Bible is distorted to reject it when all Bibles confirm that Jesus is the son of God. There is just no way that much recorded history could be distorted.

Peace

It all comes down to just which is the remaining true word of God(swt). If you believed that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt) anything said in the Bible would be of no value to you.

For many reasons, which I have posted many times in many places in the forum, I am absolutely positive that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt)

To me it is of no importance what is said in the Bible. I will even agree that there is some truth in the Bible. But, the fact is I have found the truth of the Qur'an and the words of the Bible have no meaning.

I do not have to reject the Bible, anymore than I have to reject Shakespeares writings. It is of no value or importance to me.

I do understand and accept the fact you feel exactly the same way about the Bible and that is your right.

Oddly you say you use Jesus(as) as your role model. Yet you claim he is God(swt) to me I see that as evidence that at some point Christians attempted to recreate God(swt) into their own image and Jesus(as) became what they desire God(as) to be. What was wrong in accepting God(swt) as God(swt) is?

 

[vpb]

Are you sure 100% you will pass the test??? Yes, because Jesus took the test and passed it for me, in His sinless life and atoning death and resurrection for my sins.

have you heard anywhere where someone takes the qualification test for someone else ????
I would like to know

So perhaps we need to rewrite that paragraph:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

to read as follows:

5. Muslims are hoping in their believing in One God, striving to follow Prophet Muhammad's sunnah (traditions), doing the best they can, not committing shirk or having arrogance in their hearts, avoiding haram, completing all duties and acting based upon teachings of Islam, doing good deeds as much as possible, and in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

you can put everything in a simple statement:

if you follow the Qur'an and Sunnah (which teaches not to commit shirk, to avoid haram, do obligatory things etc.....) than Allah has promised paradise for these people. and Allah swt does not break his promise.