When was the Bible corrupted?

[Redeemed]

I see, I did start a new thread, but I can't understnd why it didn't get approved. Their arguments as to when the Bible became corrupted or even that it is at all lacks substance to say the least. But you are asking good questions. I can't say the same about the answers coming back. I really believe the Holy Spirit has to witness to their spirit about the truth in the Bible or they will not see nor be convinced.
Blessings

 

[Redeemed]

You're heart is in the right place, Alapiana. But I'm not really interested so much in the inerrancy issue from a Christian viewpoint, as I'm not talking wanting to spend our time arguing between Christian versus Muslim beliefs with regard to the Bible. Though feel free to start a thread to discuss that if you so desire. I might even join you there.

I designed this one to try to better understand the Muslim viewpoint -- as I already have a pretty good grasp on the Christian viewpoint(s) -- specifically I have noted that Muslims seem to be in general agreement that the Bible is corrupted and speak of it in this way often. But they also provide very few details as to when this took place. Some Muslims even cite as proofs of the Bible's corruption things that took place well after the time of Muhammad (pbuh), so I know that those were not what was intended when that idea was forumalted. The purpose of this thread is to see if we can establish an agreement as to when Muslims believe that this corruption took place.

We are getting several different answers. But the one I would like to pursue more is this idea that the true Injeel that Jesus spoke was the one that his disciples preached when the Gospel of Mark describes them being sent out two by two. It seems that perhaps we should not even use the terms Injeel and Gospel as synonyms for what Muslims mean by the Injeel appears to be something completely different from what Christians mean by the Gospels.

What I am curious about right now is: Are you saying that the Gospels became corrupted the moment that the writers decided to include more than just this simple Injeel that Jesus gave to his disciples about the Kingdom of God? Are you saying that when they decided to tell about some of Jesus' other sayings and acts: feeding 5000 thousand, healing a blind man, casting out demons, calming a stormy sea, that this decision to tell of these events in the life of Jesus corrupted the Gospels? Are you saying that even if the record they provided was an accurate record of the events in Jesus' life, that simply the fact that they told more than the Injeel was in itself an act of corruption?

I see, I did start a new thread, but I can't understnd why it didn't get approved. Their arguments as to when the Bible became corrupted or even that it is at all lacks substance to say the least. But you are asking good questions. I can't say the same about the answers coming back. I really believe the Holy Spirit has to witness to their spirit about the truth in the Bible or they will not see nor be convinced.
Blessings

 

[Grace Seeker]

I see, I did start a new thread, but I can't understnd why it didn't get approved. Their arguments as to when the Bible became corrupted or even that it is at all lacks substance to say the least. But you are asking good questions. I can't say the same about the answers coming back. I really believe the Holy Spirit has to witness to their spirit about the truth in the Bible or they will not see nor be convinced.
Blessings

Patience. Sometime these things just take time. I once waited for over 2 weeks. After the crash, they may be busy with other stuff that they got behind on. Maybe even things in their personal lives that they put on hold to get us back online.

 

[back_to_faith]

Are you saying that the Gospels became corrupted the moment that the writers decided to include more than just this simple Injeel that Jesus gave to his disciples about the Kingdom of God?

I find no problem at all if the disciples mention the miracles of Jesus peace be upon him, while preaching the gospel to the people who never saw him ...

that is a helpfull tool for their preaching,but such thing can't be called a Gospel material....Why?


Did the almighty God inspire Jesus with things such as:

John 2:3-4
When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no
wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My
hour has not yet come."


from the muslims' point of view and logically too... such parts could never be the true Gospel that was inspired to Jesus by God...
The Gospel material are those that Jesus peace be upon him preached and that reflects what God the almighty inspired him....

 

[back_to_faith]

the same way could be the parts of the Old Testament such as Deuteronomy 34, which records the death of Moses..


So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished. And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.



That can't be a part of the true Torah that inspired by God to Moses..

in light of the facts I mentioned ,
If you still insist that the OT and NT are 100% inspired ,inerrant then,if you will consult a basic logic book you will learn the simplicity of your error....

 

[back_to_faith]

forgot to say ,we have no objection if there is a description of the DEath of Moses (peace be upon him) based on true traditions ....but we call it a work of history ....similar to the islamic Hadith science.

by no mean,a muslim claims that the hadith is a work of inspiration ,God inspired to the writer......
it is a tradition could be authentic and could be not (Hadith science decides that).

the writer of Deuteronomy could tell us whatever he wants ,regarding the character of Moses (PBUH) ,his death etc......

but we have no reason at all to believe that what he said is 1-inspired 2-part of the Torah was inspired to Moses by God.

 

[Keltoi]

I find no problem at all if the disciples mention the miracles of Jesus peace be upon him, while preaching the gospel to the people who never saw him ...

that is a helpfull tool for their preaching,but such thing can't be called a Gospel material....Why?


Did the almighty God inspire Jesus with things such as:

John 2:3-4
When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no
wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My
hour has not yet come."


from the muslims' point of view and logically too... such parts could never be the true Gospel that was inspired to Jesus by God...
The Gospel material are those that Jesus peace be upon him preached and that reflects what God the almighty inspired him....

This goes back to Grace Seeker's question. Is the "corruption" simply the fact that the Gospels describe some of Christ's day to day situtations outside of the Message? I'm still confused on the belief on this.

 

[back_to_faith]

This goes back to Grace Seeker's question. Is the "corruption" simply the fact that the Gospels describe some of Christ's day to day situtations outside of the Message? I'm still confused on the belief on this.

If you have read my posts well,you you would have known that i answered the question

some of Christ's day to day situtations outside of the Message,could have another siutable place outside the Gospel(A study tool) ,as long as it is PROVED TO BE AUTHENTIC.....

Just as the narratives of the biography of the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH),the authentic ones ,are very helpful for understanding the Quran, but no one ever claim that such biographies to be inspired from God,and the Holy Spirit dectated it to the writers ..,...

 

[don532]

If you have read my posts well,you you would have known that i answered the question

some of Christ's day to day situtations outside of the Message,could have another siutable place outside the Gospel(A study tool) ,as long as it is PROVED TO BE AUTHENTIC.....

Just as the narratives of the biography of the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH),the authentic ones ,are very helpful for understanding the Quran, but no one ever claim that such biographies to be inspired from God,and the Holy Spirit dectated it to the writers ..,...

I have always interpreted the muslim charge of a corrupted Bible as being changes, inaccuracies, Paul's agenda being added, etc.

Are you are saying the Bible is also corrupt because it contains documentation of things other than what Jesus preached? In other words, the Bible is corrupt because it does not record the direct revelation from God to Jesus like the koran records the direct revelation of Allah to Mohammad?

 

[back_to_faith]

I have always interpreted the muslim charge of a corrupted Bible as being changes, inaccuracies, Paul's agenda being added, etc.

Are you are saying the Bible is also corrupt because it contains documentation of things other than what Jesus preached?

Greetings

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.


"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a LIE. (Jeremiah 8:8)"


"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to followThe Noble Quran, 4:156-159



"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places The Noble Quran, 5:41

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

I find no problem at all if the disciples mention the miracles of Jesus peace be upon him, while preaching the gospel to the people who never saw him ...

that is a helpfull tool for their preaching,but such thing can't be called a Gospel material....Why?


Did the almighty God inspire Jesus with things such as:

John 2:3-4
When the wine failed, the mother of Jesus said to him, "They have no
wine." And Jesus said to her, "O woman, what have you to do with me? My
hour has not yet come."


from the muslims' point of view and logically too... such parts could never be the true Gospel that was inspired to Jesus by God...
The Gospel material are those that Jesus peace be upon him preached and that reflects what God the almighty inspired him....

I appreciate what you have said. I hope you will appreciate what I am about to say.

The term "Gospel" has a very specific meaning. It is a term coined by the Church, and I think that it ought to therefore be the Church that defines it. I now understand that what we call the Gospel and the gospels are different from what you call the Injeel. Therefore, I think that in the future it would be wise if we no longer use these terms interchangably. As the Church uses the term "Gospel" it actually isn't a record of what Jesus preached. That may sound strange to you, and this may be part of our problem. The word "Gospel" literally means "good news". In this case the good news of the Gospel was not just what Jesus said but even more what he did. So, based on our Christian understanding of the word "Gospel" and your Muslim understanding of the word "Injeel" being that message which God gave to Jesus to deliver, it is obvious that we really are talking apples and oranges when speaking of them.

So, now that the difference between those two is more clear (that the Gospel and the Injeel are really referring to do completely different messages, the Injeel a message delivered by Jesus and the Gospel a message delivered about Jesus, I have a follow-up question.

When I hear Muslims speak of the Bible beig corrupted to what are they referring. (I know that the reference includes concerns with regard to the Torah, but I want to focus on that which revovles around Jesus for the moment.)
Do Muslims mean the the Injeel that Jesus delivered has been corrupted?
or
Do Muslims mean that the Gospel message delivered about Jesus has been corrupted?


I also understand that Muslims may believe both types of corruption have occurred. But I want to know when they use such a phrase as to speak of the Bible being corrupted, with regard to Jesus, which is the concern they are expressing at that time?

Was Muhammad (pbuh) more concerns that Christians did not have the true Injeel that Jesus himself spoke, or that the Gospel record Christians did have told some untruths with regard to what Jesus did?

 

[don532]

Greetings

Deuteronomy 4:2
Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.


"How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a LIE. (Jeremiah 8:8)"


"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to followThe Noble Quran, 4:156-159



"O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places The Noble Quran, 5:41

peace

Greetings:
I guess I'm supposed to take that as a "yes, with regard to the message of Jesus, anything other than words attributed to Jesus that agree with the koran is also a corruption". If not, please let me know.

I'm getting the impression you think Christianity should have the Bible containing only the message directly from God, and anything that's not the direct message should be in something like the hadiths.

Grace Seeker makes a good point about how Christians define the "gospel", that I was also going to bring up at this point. I would also be interested in reading the answers to his questions.

Peace.

 

[back_to_faith]

Do Muslims mean the the Injeel that Jesus delivered has been corrupted?
or
Do Muslims mean that the NEW TESTAMENT message delivered about Jesus has been corrupted?

We have just agreed that the Injeel for muslims is that what Jesus (PBUH)preached to others (what he uttered from his own mouth reflecting the inspiration he recieved God)

if so then the Injeel (The words)that Jesus delivered has been corrupted

Clue?
we have ample proofs that even the parts of the NT which mention the so called oral teachings of Jesus (PBUH) is proved to be problematic and false..

Among them:
1-false statements and inaccurate ,unfulfilled prophecies, as in
John 3:13 -Matt. 12:40 -John 13:38

2- Distorting the Old Testament and inventing non-existed prophecies ,as in

John 7:38 - Luke 24:46


not need to give more examples...

according to the Quran:there are some of False statements and failed Prophecies ,, put in the mouth of Jesus in the New Testament.


Was Muhammad (pbuh) more concerns that Christians did not have the true Injeel that Jesus himself spoke, or that the Gospel record Christians did have told some untruths with regard to what Jesus did?[

Answer: Both

I appreciate what you have said too.

peace

 

[back_to_faith]

Greetings:
I guess I'm supposed to take that as a "yes, with regard to the message of Jesus, anything other than words attributed to Jesus that agree with the koran is also a corruption". If not, please let me know.



Peace.

Greetings

I Didn't say it is a corruption ,I only say it can't be from the Gospel God taught Jesus..

anything other than words attributed to Jesus ,if proved to be from authentic source ,could be a very helpful tool to understand the true Gospel..... but there is no such thing called authentic in the whole world of the NT.

thanx

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings

I Didn't say it is a corruption ,I only say it can't be from the Gospel God taught Jesus..

anything other than words attributed to Jesus ,if proved to be from authentic source ,could be a very helpful tool to understand the true Gospel..... but there is no such thing called authentic in the whole world of the NT.

thanx

peace

Please, can you instead say, "I Didn't say it is a corruption ,I only say it can't be from the Injeel God taught Jesus.."
I know it is going to take time, but I think such distinction of terms in our speech will help both sides to communicate better.

 

[back_to_faith]

Please, can you instead say, "I Didn't say it is a corruption ,I only say it can't be from the Injeel God taught Jesus.."
I know it is going to take time, but I think such distinction of terms in our speech will help both sides to communicate better.

I Agree

thanx

 

[Grace Seeker]

So, from the Muslim persepctive, the Injeel that God gave Jesus has been lost (though it is assumed that it would be the same basic Injeel that God have Muhammad I would guess.) And thus I can understand why some might say that the Injeel of Jesus has been corrupted. But if the intent of the disciples in their writings was NOT to present the Injeel, but to tell a different story of their experience of being with and knowing Jesus, then that story might include some elements of this Injeel, but it would be incombant upon it to do so. And I would seem to be perfectly appropriate for them to write more than just the Injeel, telling about other things that Jesus said and did, even given their personal understanding of what all of this meant, as long as they didn't create any fictional accounts to their writings. Would such a Gospel, and here I am talking about the original telling of it by the disciples (whether that was in oral or written form) be considered a corruption?

 

[back_to_faith]

So, from the Muslim persepctive, the Injeel that God gave Jesus has been lost (though it is assumed that it would be the same basic Injeel that God have Muhammad I would guess.) And thus I can understand why some might say that the Injeel of Jesus has been corrupted. But if the intent of the disciples in their writings was NOT to present the Injeel, but to tell a different story of their experience of being with and knowing Jesus, then that story might include some elements of this Injeel, but it would be incombant upon it to do so. And I would seem to be perfectly appropriate for them to write more than just the Injeel, telling about other things that Jesus said and did, even given their personal understanding of what all of this meant, as long as they didn't create any fictional accounts to their writings. Would such a Gospel, and here I am talking about the original telling of it by the disciples (whether that was in oral or written form) be considered a corruption?

Again I say ,from the Quranic persepctive, some of the Injeel that God gave Jesus 'we could find in the NT .
Lost and Corrupted are not equal !!


the disciples in their writings ???

What disciples?and where one could find their writings?







(even given their personal understanding of what all of this meant)

there bagan one of the reasons of Gospel corruption, If john writes


John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

according to you John his personal understanding of the Gospel .
but anyone take a look at Mark 10:17-18,find out How false such statement made by John

Mark 10:17-18
Why do you call me good ?" Jesus answered. "No one is good except God alone.

What John did is not understanding of the True Gospel,

John had a desire to use Greek pagan concepts and philosophies as a tool for communicating Jesus as the Logos to a Christianized Gentile audience. John's Logos would not be understood by Jews and his book would only be familiar to someone practiced in the pagan mystery cults that flourished in the Hellenistic world. Heraclitus of Ephesus used the word Logos around 500 BCE to describe his concept of the regularity with which the universe seemed to operate. The universe was a divine machine and Heraclitus credited the Logos (literally the reason) as the ultimate rationale which secretly operated the universe and the heavens above.(from The Gospel of John and the Hellenization of Jesus )



We need the Gospel of Jesus (The inspired word of God)
not the concept of Paul,John etc Regarding God....

according to you

seem to be perfectly appropriate for them to write more than just the Injeel, telling about other things that Jesus said and did, even given their personal understanding of what all of this meant,that story might include some elements of this Injeel.

and I say:

We need the whole elements of the Injeel,and as long as they are neither eyewitnesses nor disciples,giving their personal understanding of what all of this meant,claiming the meeting of a Ghost of Jesus(Paul), visions regarding Jesus,that they received (Book of Revelation) is WHOLLY WITHOUT MERIT.

peace

 

[don532]

We need the whole elements of the Injeel,and as long as they are neither eyewitnesses nor disciples,giving their personal understanding of what all of this meant,claiming the meeting of a Ghost of Jesus(Paul), visions regarding Jesus,that they received (Book of Revelation) is WHOLLY WITHOUT MERIT.

So, present direct revelation from God, the same as what muslims believe Mohammad received, and nothing else has merit?

 

[Keltoi]

So, present direct revelation from God, the same as what muslims believe Mohammad received, and nothing else has merit?

What it basically boils down to, is that any religious text that seems to contradict something in the Qu'ran has been corrupted by default. That isn't a surprising attitude in the context of religion. Christians have pretty much the same attitude about the Qu'ran, as it contradicts what we believe about Jesus. We can't prove the other to be in error, it is a product of faith and belief.