Taleban 'kill S Korean hostage'

[Skywalker]

Afghanistan is in a state of war between Islamic forces (The Taliban) and the pro-America forces and puppet government of Hamid Karzai, which relies on foreign troops from Western countries. The government of Hamid Karzai is illegitimate in the Islamic perspective.

While at the same time, the Taliban is illegitimate from their perspective. The whole issue of govn't legitimacy is not helping in solving this situation.

Whether to kill the prisoners or not is a tricky issue, on one hand they propogate their false gods and false religion

Is proselytization of a religion other than Islam within an Islamic country punishable by death? Is there a Qur'anic reference to this, or a Hadeeth?

and apostasy is punishable by death in Islam

I beg to differ. The Grand Mufti of Egypt just made a fatwa saying that Muslims can change their religion if they don't believe. A lot of other scholars are in agreement with this. Nevertheless, the missionaries are not apostates, so the punishment in question is not applicable to them unless there is a reference to the same punishment being done to missionaries.

They have no respect for our religion and our shariat, why should we respect their lives?

Because prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said so. You can't kill someone for their ignorance.

 

[snakelegs]

this has made me wonder if the taliban even knows islam. (not that i do, of course).
i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state (which afghanistan is not, altho it is an islamic republic). but i have never heard of a death punishment for proselytizers, though it is illegal in afghanistan.
also the taliban is not a government now and the fact that they don't recognise the karzai gov't seems irrelevant to me.
i am really curious about this - does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

 

[bint_khalid]

im a bit sceptical on what the media says.
We dont know the real reason why these "missionaries" were in afghanistan in the first place, they could have been spies. Allah knows best
if they were normal civilians then obviously it would be wrong though

 

[bint_khalid]

this has made me wonder if the taliban even knows islam. (not that i do, of course).
i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state (which afghanistan is not, altho it is an islamic republic). but i have never heard of a death punishment for proselytizers, though it is illegal in afghanistan.
also the taliban is not a government now and the fact that they don't recognise the karzai gov't seems irrelevant to me.
i am really curious about this - does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

the taleban are trying their best to follow the quran and sunnah, they want to implement sharia law. But obviously afghans are still very cultural, you will get some bad apples who try and enforce laws which are not islamic.
Also they may still be some less practising guys amongst the taliban.

From what i know the taliban have good intentions and only doing what their religon requires them to do.

 

[bint_khalid]

since afghanistan does not have shariah, would it really be ok to kill them from a purely islamic standpoint?

although the whole of afghanistan does not have sharia law many taliban safe havens have sharia implemented.
Many areas in souther afghanistan near the pakistan border have sharia law, it could well have been these missionaries wondered into the wrong territory.
And as i said previously we do not know for sure if they were missionaries.

 

[Skywalker]

does somebody know if the taleban are acting in accordance with islam on this thing?

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.

i know there is a death punsihment for apostates under a shariah state

This is currently under debate since there are various points of view and different fatwas on this.

 

[KAding]

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.

There is one more question that precedes that. Can they declare Afghanistan to be an Islamic State when they only control a fraction of the territory? In other words, shouldn't they first control the government to create an Islamic state?

Otherwise every group could essentially set up an Islamic state even when it lacks control over the institutions that control the territory of the state. I mean, if the Taliban can declare Afghanistan to be ruled by Islamic law, what stops, say, my friendly Muslim neighbor from doing the same in my street?

 

[Skywalker]

There is one more question that precedes that. Can they declare Afghanistan to be an Islamic State when they only control a fraction of the territory? In other words, shouldn't they first control the government to create an Islamic state?

Otherwise every group could essentially set up an Islamic state even when it lacks control over the institutions that control the territory of the state. I mean, if the Taliban can declare Afghanistan to be ruled by Islamic law, what stops, say, my friendly Muslim neighbor from doing the same in my street?

That's a valid point IMO, and like you said the question precedes the other...actually I'd say both need to be answered at the same time.

 

[Skywalker]

Here's a little something...

http://www.oic-oci.org/press/English/2007/08/IIFA.htm

 

[Talha777]

The Grand Mufti of Egypt just made a fatwa saying that Muslims can change their religion if they don't believe

The fatawa from Egypt, specifically al azhar, are not credible, especially considering the fact that the government has regulations and considerable influence over them. They are making fatawa to suit a political idealogy. On the other hand, you should refer to fatawa from Deoband and affiliated ulama or madrassahs which is free from government influence and is much more credible and knowledgable institution.

Don't you remember that Al-Azhar fatwa by Mahmud Shaltut that Hazrat Isa (alaihi salaam) is dead (auzubillah)?

http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=653

Al-Azhar has produced many great scholars in the past. Unfortunately, it does not enjoy that position today.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

 

[wilberhum]

Here's a little something...

http://www.oic-oci.org/press/English/2007/08/IIFA.htm

Luke You are right it is interesting. Thought I would bring it down.
Hope you don't mind.

International Islamic Fiqh academy

Calls for the release of South Korean hostages



The Secretariat of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, with regard to the South Korean citizens kidnapped in Afghanistan, transmits the following statement by the OIC subsidiary organ, the International Islamic Fiqh Academy (IIFA):



The International Islamic Fiqh Academy, recalling the Koreans that were kidnapped, two of whom have been killed, appeals to the Taliban Movement to release the hostages, for they have committed no crime. The IIFA hopes that the captors would abide by the ethics of Islam which calls for compassion. It also reminds them that Islam prohibits kidnapping and killing and considers them corruption on the land, which every Muslim must avoid. Allah says: “Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law.” He also says: “Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.”



The IIFA regards this behaviour as injustice which is prohibited: “And God loves not those that do wrong.” It also sees it as undermining Islam and an opportunity for the enemies to cast aspersions on the religion and to describe it and its adherents in terms of violence and terrorism.



A substitute for this behaviour which is at variance with the preservation and protection of human rights against all forms of violation and injustice as advocated by Islam is to opt for the path of argument and dialogue, in response to Allah’s saying: “Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for your Lord knows best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.”



Jeddah, 5th August 2007

 

[snakelegs]

the taleban are trying their best to follow the quran and sunnah, they want to implement sharia law. But obviously afghans are still very cultural, you will get some bad apples who try and enforce laws which are not islamic.
Also they may still be some less practising guys amongst the taliban.

From what i know the taliban have good intentions and only doing what their religon requires them to do.

wel, this is what i am questioning - not whether the taliban are good guys or bad guys, but are they even following islam correctly?

 

[snakelegs]

although the whole of afghanistan does not have sharia law many taliban safe havens have sharia implemented.
Many areas in souther afghanistan near the pakistan border have sharia law, it could well have been these missionaries wondered into the wrong territory.
And as i said previously we do not know for sure if they were missionaries.

they have not been accused of spying.

 

[Skywalker]

The fatawa from Egypt, specifically al azhar, are not credible, especially considering the fact that the government has regulations and considerable influence over them. They are making fatawa to suit a political idealogy. On the other hand, you should refer to fatawa from Deoband and affiliated ulama or madrassahs which is free from government influence and is much more credible and knowledgable institution.

You're right in that some fatwas come out due to govn't influence -- actually lots of people these days seem to be coming up with fatwas that suit their situations -- nevertheless, Ali Gomaa has a fairly good reputation and he's not part of Al-Azhar (who have come up with some even stranger fatwas than you can imagine). This fatwa in particular is very much opposed by a lot of scholars, while it's quite welcomed by a whole lot of other scholars.

I think it's only a matter of time before people start actually thinking about "why" people have been killing apostates throughout history and eventually realize that they have been doing a grave crime indeed. May Allah guide the ummah and forgive us our sins.

Btw bro, haven't I seen u over at ffi?

Luke You are right it is interesting. Thought I would bring it down.
Hope you don't mind.

What, how dare you?! lol just kidding man.

I hope ur starting to see that we Muslims aren't as evil as you think

 

[snakelegs]

This is what I'm trying to establish. So far, I've just read that it's not allowed to promote a religion other than Islam in a Sharia state, but I haven't found anything that talks about a punishment for those who break that rule.


This is currently under debate since there are various points of view and different fatwas on this.

i am wondering if it is possible that the taleban isn't even acting according to islam. it would be quite ironic if they are not even following islam! (though i am sure that they think they are).
you are not allowed to promote a religion other than islam - but death penalty? again, i know the punishment for apostasy is death if the person goes public - but i've never heard of it for proselytizing. and as you said, even on apostates, there are differences of opinion among scholars.
and yes, the second issue is in the absence of the islamic state. KAding put it well.
one thing for sure, the taleban are not big on Public Relations. ;D

 

[wilberhum]

I hope ur starting to see that we Muslims aren't as evil as you think

Most Muslims are good people but some Muslims are more evil than I can comprehend.
Sadly, the level of intolerance that is required to kill someone for their beliefs seems to be a common trait.

 

[snakelegs]

I think it's only a matter of time before people start actually thinking about "why" people have been killing apostates throughout history and eventually realize that they have been doing a grave crime indeed. May Allah guide the ummah and forgive us our sins.

this would be a topic for another thread, but i tend to agree with you 2 grounds:
death for apostates stems from when muslims were under attack and people who left the religion were actually becoming spies and putting the muslims in danger. (treason)
and the other problem is that such an important thing as the death punishment for apostasy is not mentioned in the qur'an.

 

[Skywalker]

i am wondering if it is possible that the taleban isn't even acting according to islam. it would be quite ironic if they are not even following islam! (though i am sure that they think they are).

The Taliban are not exactly "perfect Muslims". They do have a lot of good qualities in some aspects of their lifestyles, but they also do a lot of stupid stuff that has no basis in Islam and is nothing more than passed down traditions. Not educating their women and mandating niqab for example.

one thing for sure, the taleban are not big on Public Relations.

You can just imagine what Taliban TV would be like... but seriuosly though, Islam urges good manners in all that you do, so Islam itself is big on Public Relations. I guess this is another example of them not behaving very Islamically.

Sadly, the level of intolerance that is required to kill someone for their beliefs seems to be a common trait.

I highly disagree. You can't kill someone for their beliefs -- but for their actions. I don't think you'll find another Muslim on this board that will disagree with that.

 

[wilberhum]

I highly disagree. You can't kill someone for their beliefs -- but for their actions. I don't think you'll find another Muslim on this board that will disagree with that.

Did you missed the first part of what I said?

Most Muslims are good people but some Muslims are more evil than I can comprehend.

 

[Skywalker]

Did you missed the first part of what I said?

No, but you said that it was a "common trait" -- meaning the good ones and the bad ones both have it...? Right?