What is an agnostic?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'

proof /pruf/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[proof] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2. anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3. the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.
4. the establishment of the truth of anything; demonstration.
5. Law. (in judicial proceedings) evidence having probative weight.
6. the effect of evidence in convincing the mind.
7. an arithmetical operation serving to check the correctness of a calculation.
8. Mathematics, Logic. a sequence of steps, statements, or demonstrations that leads to a valid conclusion.

There are other definitions, but those are the main ones. What do you understand the word 'proof' to mean?

Peace

 

[barney]

Maybe we can start off by answering the question: what does the word proof really mean? God coming up to you and whispering in your ear 'hey dude, Im god?'

Generally a symptom of Schizophrenia. God would have to prove it to that person. something trivial for a deity like making a Camel turn into a porcupine or something.

Once thats done, he obviously has chosen the person for some reason.

• Just to let you know im real, take it easy..later & have fun.
• I want you to do a specific task that I'm having some difficulty with, theres a evil influence in the message that the tellytubbies are putting accross, i'd like you to go write some letters and start a campaign against them, i've tried having a word with the producers but they wouldnt listen....
• Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, I'll chip in with a few miracles if people think your nuts.
• Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, Your on your own with making people beleive you, offer them the usual carrott and stick, paradise & hellfire. Used to work on people when they were gullible...

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

Generally a symptom of Schizophrenia. God would have to prove it to that person. something trivial for a deity like making a Camel turn into a porcupine or something.

Once thats done, he obviously has chosen the person for some reason.

• Just to let you know im real, take it easy..later & have fun.
• I want you to do a specific task that I'm having some difficulty with, theres a evil influence in the message that the tellytubbies are putting accross, i'd like you to go write some letters and start a campaign against them, i've tried having a word with the producers but they wouldnt listen....
• Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, I'll chip in with a few miracles if people think your nuts.
• Your my new prophet, Go out with this list of instructions for mankind, Your on your own with making people beleive you, offer them the usual carrott and stick, paradise & hellfire. Used to work on people when they were gullible...

:laugh: LOL! That was so funny, i actually forgot what we were talking about!
And then i went back and re-read some of the thread... so on a serious note, you cant actually expect something like that to happen.... so how about the fact that the Prophet PBUH knew of things only scientists recently found out...... that old book you've heard of that was made 1400 years ago could tell you of things scientists are learning today....

Like the miracle of the fly: one side of the wing carriers a disease and the other side carries a cure.... the Prophet Muhammad knew about this and just recently scientists are telling us about it- (i can tell you the saying of the prohet if youre interested). Cant this be called proof?:?

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

Greetings,

There are other definitions, but those are the main ones. What do you understand the word 'proof' to mean?

Peace

Proof is anything a person provides to be believable when seen.... however when you are talking about the past tense.... it wont be seen so i would go by what professionals can prove to us.... many professionals can prove the existence of Muhammads knowledge.... please read the miracle of the fly i have mentioned above this letter, to Barney (dont worry u 2 can discuss notes behind my back, i wont mind )

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Proof is anything a person provides to be believable when seen.... however when you are talking about the past tense.... it wont be seen so i would go by what professionals can prove to us.... many professionals can prove the existence of Muhammads knowledge.... please read the miracle of the fly i have mentioned above this letter, to Barney (dont worry u 2 can discuss notes behind my back, i wont mind )

The so-called miracle of the fly is an example of the scientific miracles argument. There is a big difference between an argument and a proof. The problem of evil is a very good argument against the existence of god, but it doesn't prove he doesn't exist.

Since the scientific miracles argument has been discussed so many times on the forum there's little point in going over it again.

Peace

 

[Pygoscelis]

I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a God. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. You don't know for sure either, which you'll admit if you're honest with yourself. Its why you need "faith". When you get right down to it we are all agnostic.

 

[wilberhum]

I am agnostic. I don't know if there is a God. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. You don't know for sure either, which you'll admit if you're honest with yourself. Its why you need "faith". When you get right down to it we are all agnostic.

I have thought the same. How can anyone KNOW?
The only answer is faith.

 

[snakelegs]

then why do some call themselves atheists and try their hardest to convince people that their beliefs are wrong and that they are right? since i was a child, i have had zillions of christians try to "save" me, but i have also had more than a few atheists try the same.
this is something i never understood.
but, then - there are a lot of other things i don't understand either.

 

[Gator]

The way I see it is yes, you can't prove or disprove a god, but you take your best shot at what you think is the basic nature of the universe (with a god or without).

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

I can honestly say i dont feel this way.... yes i was born into a Muslim family.... but no i did not practice Islam until i researched Islam myself at the age of 16..... and when things that are happening today, that have been proved by men years and years ago, how could you not believe... how could these men get it so right?
I dont need to see God to believe in Him.... this IS the hardest thing for a person.

So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I can honestly say i dont feel this way.... yes i was born into a Muslim family.... but no i did not practice Islam until i researched Islam myself at the age of 16.....

That's interesting. So didn't you have to obey Islamic rulings on prayer, food and so on until you were sixteen?

and when things that are happening today, that have been proved by men years and years ago, how could you not believe... how could these men get it so right?

Please tell me you're not thinking about the old 'scientific miracles' argument...

So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D

Fear of god or fear of hell are not the only reasons that people behave morally.

Ask yourself: is fear of hell really all that is holding me back from going on a killing spree? You'd have to be pretty deranged to answer 'yes' to that question.

Peace

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

Greetings,


Fear of god or fear of hell are not the only reasons that people behave morally.

Ask yourself: is fear of hell really all that is holding me back from going on a killing spree? You'd have to be pretty deranged to answer 'yes' to that question.

Peace

Call me deranged if you like, but fear of God is the ONLY thing that stops me from going against His Laws.... be it Drinking, Gambling, Eating Pork, Killing myself with smokes, drugs etc, killing other people or stealing.

Where do you possibly think Common Laws have come from? Trust me, not people's own minute minds, but a few of the Laws of God have been chosen and used in what we call the Law.

 

[Uthman]

As Muslims we believe in something called Fitrah (human nature), and I believe that it is this which holds us back from going on a killing spree.

 

[KAding]

So obviously this means you probably dont believe in Heaven or Hell....correct?
SO why not go steal, cheat, lie, abuse people etc. when u arent afraid of a God? You wont be rotting in Hell, would you?;D

Some reasons:
1. I don't feel like abusing people, hurting people isn't rewarding at all...
2. Empathy, it hurts to see other hurt
3. I would become an outcast, shunned by family and friends
4. I could go to jail
5. Society would collapse if we'd all behave that way. I wouldn't like that at all.

Is the only reason why you don't abuse your child/parents/friends because you fear hell? Are you truly that wicked

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

Some reasons:
1. I don't feel like abusing people, hurting people isn't rewarding at all...
2. Empathy, it hurts to see other hurt
3. I would become an outcast, shunned by family and friends
4. I could go to jail
5. Society would collapse if we'd all behave that way. I wouldn't like that at all.

Is the only reason why you don't abuse your child/parents/friends because you fear hell? Are you truly that wicked

1. Why would you NOT want to abuse people? Because of the LAWS you have been taught as a child?
2. Empathy hurst, because someone gave you feelings.... who was that?
3. Why, because of a LAW you broke?
4. same as above
5. True, because we all follow the Law.

This is what Allah gave us through His Blessed Books.... A LAW that we may follow, to make this life prepare us for the next.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Call me deranged if you like, but fear of God is the ONLY thing that stops me from going against His Laws.... be it Drinking, Gambling, Eating Pork, Killing myself with smokes, drugs etc, killing other people or stealing.

Well, I find that very hard to understand.

Where do you possibly think Common Laws have come from? Trust me, not people's own minute minds, but a few of the Laws of God have been chosen and used in what we call the Law.

If that is true, then why is it that we find essentially the same moral code in all major religions, both theistic and non-theistic, as well as in secular ethical philosophies? See Aldous Huxley's book The Perennial Philosophy for more on this.

Morality can be explained without any necessity for god. Morality is at root a method of encouraging the survival of our species. If humans insisted on killing each other at any given opportunity, we wouldn't have lasted this long, so we've evidently learned at some stage to refrain from doing it. Despite the many instances of bloodshed throughout human history, we have managed to survive as a species, so morality is (to that extent) doing its job.

As Muslims we believe in something called Fitrah (human nature), and I believe that it is this which holds us back from going on a killing spree.

Now that is one article of Islamic belief that I think I could go along with. There may be some aspects of it where I would disagree, but on a simple level I think that humans do in geneal want to do what they perceive to be the right thing.

Another beautifully succinct and sensible post from Osman - keep 'em coming! :thumbs_up

Peace

 

[barney]

I love it when Theists think they have the monopoly on Morality.

The irony just dosnt sink in @ all

 

[wilberhum]

I love it when Theists think they have the monopoly on Morality.

The irony just dosnt sink in @ all

Well some seam to have a monopoly on killing for god.
Scores die in attacks on Iraqi sect
Up to 200 people were killed and 200 more wounded in a series of suicide attacks attacks in northern Iraq late on Tuesday that appeared to have targeted the Yazidi religious sect.

(More)
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/2DDB9D23-A11B-4AF3-A68C-E8936C4E346D.htm

 

[Pygoscelis]

then why do some call themselves atheists and try their hardest to convince people that their beliefs are wrong and that they are right?

It is human nature to want to bring others to your way of thinking. Atheists do this re religion yes, but they will also do it re sports and politics, etc.

Beyond that, many atheists, myself included, see many of today's religions as dangerous to society. So it makes perfect sense to try to bring others away from them. Asking this type of atheist why try to bring someone away from these religions is like asking them why try to bring someone away from racism or any other hurtful belief system.

And beyond that, many atheists, myself included, worry a little about social pressure, conformity, mind programming that exists in our society (and this doesn't only apply to religion). People are usually practicing their religion because they were brought up to do so. They were infused with it in their youth. Only a handful of believers have actually ever stopped to question their own beliefs. I respect and admire those who have done so and still retain their beliefs, I think they have a stronger foundation to stand on than the sheeple, but the sheeple still rule.

 

[Pygoscelis]

1. Why would you NOT want to abuse people? Because of the LAWS you have been taught as a child?

Ask yourself this and answer honestly to yourself. Are laws really the only reason you don't abuse people? If we were off in the wilderness, just you and me, would you abuse and kill me if you knew nobody, not even your God, would ever find out? Somehow I doubt it.

2. Empathy hurst, because someone gave you feelings.... who was that?

My mom and dad. They had sex one day and a bit later my brain started to form synapses and gave me instincts. Then later as I grew up I was socialized and I learned to identify with my fellow human beings even moreso.

3. Why, because of a LAW you broke?

We have laws not because God gave them to us, but because we decided they made sense. Would you wish to live in a society where your fellow citizens considered it ok for you to be robbed, raped, and murdered?

[/quote]This is what Allah gave us through His Blessed Books.... A LAW that we may follow, to make this life prepare us for the next.[/QUOTE]

Allah gave you no such thing. The writers of the book you call "holy" simply took their moral views of the time and wrote them down and claimed a God told them these things.