Please Explain

[IslamistheTruth]

NoName55..there really isn't a need to be so rude.

Barney, it's not very clear to me either. However, I think that's the whole point..there isn't a clearcut answer to whether or not this hadith is completely authentic. We also need to take into consideration that there may have been other factors involved which have not been detailed into this account. If a true Islamic state was to rise again..this type of violence would not go unchecked..and we're certain about that..inshAllah. However, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) may have had his own reasons for forgiving this man. The Prophet was a very forgiving man and we have proof of that. People would verbally abuse him, throw garbage his way, and some even attempted to kill him. He forgave these people. Some people on this board many disagree with me on this, but I believe it is better to practice patience and to forgive. And of course..there are limits to everything. Again, the hadith doesn't go into immense detail. It describes the crime and allows for us to visualize a setting. Still, from there we are directly taken to the verdict. If the scholars themselves differ in regards to this hadith, then it's definitely difficult for me to draw any conclusions. Well, that's my take on it. I hope I didn't confuse anyone.

 

[believer]

If,indeed there was such a man! (must not forget that it may not be true at all)

wa salaam alaikum

Salaamualaikum Brother!

True or Not... this hadith is causing confussion and it is our mission to clear the air of confussion and bring the truth. confussion is the devils tool to lead many astray.

The Prophet Rasoolullah has been our perfect model... we may not be perfect like the blind man... but it doesn't mean we don't pursue perfection.

Perfection in our religion is the only battle each Muslim must face. Allah gave us the clear guidelines... the reason we have these guidelines is to keep us from sin and evil acts. I have tried missing a prayer time one time... actually I missed 2 or 3... it was one of the hardest times I experienced.

Once you have been a practicing Muslim for the 5 prayer times... and then you deviate from it... Evil thoughts will come rushing back to you as if you have never been a Muslim.... I am speaking just for myself.

Now, In order to keep myself dedicated to not missing a prayer time... I assumed the role of the Muazzin. sometimes I am not that early to call the Athan... but - I am not missing the schedule.

In other words... if we try to hit the stars... we may never be able to hit it- but at least we'll be hitting the moon.

At any rate, if this Hadith isn't true... then - we can only pray that May Allah guide those who are trapped into this confussion.

Ameen.

 

[believer]

This thread is good because I (along with some other sisters)have been questioning this hadith lately, and it's just been hard to make sense out of it.

This hadith for me serves like a nursery story... it has plenty of moral lessons in it... the nature of this hadith is similar to the childrens fairytale stories in Christian schools...

If I would treat it that way... its so easy to get conclussions and moral lessons.

OK, I will give it a shot.

Here are the moral lessons I can see in this Hadith:

1. (for the ladies) Never Nag your husband more than he can handle... we have a crime called 'Psychological torture'... in the west, a husband can file a case against his wife about Husband Battery by means of Nagging.

2. Never sleep till you have cleared issues with your spouses. see what happens when there are unsettled disputes? one of the spouse can snap and just loose it. and it's so easy to do it when one is sleeping.

3. (for the husbands) If you can't stop your wifes mouth, then at least get out of the house! stay in the desert! Fight or Flight - there are only two choices.

4. (for the men) Never touch your slave or servants... if you don't want to loose them. If you have self respect! at least to your children or your wife. Once you touch your servants, they will imediately think they are already on the same level like your wife... this is a fact.

5. (for the sisters)... Never leave knives lying around especially if you have nagged your blind husband the whole day ...;D :giggling:

The list goes on! but - this is not the thread for Funny Jokes... it's starting to sound one already.

I hope I broke the seriousness in the air.

May Allah bless us all and Keep us away from confussion!

 

[NoName55]

^^ LOL! you are alright. wa salaam alaikum

 

[Malaikah]

Just to get this straight without going into the morality of condoning the killing of the woman for insulting him

If the women was Muslim the killing was for apostacy, because insulting the Prophet is apostacy. But the narration does not clarify whether the woman was Muslim or not.

 

[NoName55]

is there any point in writing page after page to explain apostasy and treason to people when someone can ruin it all with a single line?

 

[IslamistheTruth]

I see your point. Well, inshAllah..the message was clear.

 

[lilah]

i've been reading a lot of the explanations given to the related hadiths. Unless you have evidence from to back up your statements, you cannot interpret hadiths based on your opinions....this is where the Muslims fall into the traps of the kufar....they try to interpret hadiths/quranic versus without proper schooling or knowledge, based on their opinions....but opinions can be misleading.

Lets say somebody asks about the interpretation of a hadith he/she heard and a muslim automatically starts putting in their 2 cents in as to what they think the meaning of the hadith is. But this muslim might have his/her time interpreting a weak/false hadith. Or he/she might give an incorrect interpretation of the hadith and be held accountable by Allah SWT.

i'm not saying that opinions don't matter, but they don't belong in interpreting hadith if the person isn't learned enough in Islam to do so.... (does that make sense?)

 

[believer]

i've been reading a lot of the explanations given to the related hadiths. Unless you have evidence from to back up your statements, you cannot interpret hadiths based on your opinions....this is where the Muslims fall into the traps of the kufar....they try to interpret hadiths/quranic versus without proper schooling or knowledge, based on their opinions....but opinions can be misleading.

Lets say somebody asks about the interpretation of a hadith he/she heard and a muslim automatically starts putting in their 2 cents in as to what they think the meaning of the hadith is. But this muslim might have his/her time interpreting a weak/false hadith. Or he/she might give an incorrect interpretation of the hadith and be held accountable by Allah SWT.

i'm not saying that opinions don't matter, but they don't belong in interpreting hadith if the person isn't learned enough in Islam to do so.... (does that make sense?)

How about Reading the Quran 1 chapter per sitting - 5 times a day for one year? Are you questioning the credibility of the Qur'an? - I believe you want to say that the lesser books has more credibility?

I real Muslim will never attempt to claim something he has no knowledge of.... and If the truth has been given to him - and He witholds the information or revelation - He will be accountable to Allah SWT.

I will tell you what is the nature of something that does not come from Allah Subhanawatalallah.... If an information is not inspired or guided - It will be confusing and it will never be standing alone per se. It will need back-up.

This is the nature of lies. Lies cannot stand alone... just like the nature of Shaytan and his companions... they are a legion.

But the TRUTH can stand alone... just like Gods' nature... HE IS ONE! - no need for back-ups.

If you are trying to discredit me. You will be needing a lot of backup. Please never under estimate a man who uses simple words. I spent my whole lifetime trying to learn the laymans terms and also studying the nature of lies and liars... at the same time studying the true nature of God and Man.

I donot claim to be an islamic scholar nor a christian natural moral law master... but I do claim only one thing. The Truth revealed to me by Allah - and I have no doubts about it.

I already literally throw my personal library away because I have found the Qur'an. ... Yes, I had a library and and I loved books - but I will not claim to be an authority of any Human Games of Arrogance.

If you are only posting here with prejudice and an ulterior motive other than sharing the truth but instead be a block for the people who want to know the truth - then you will be answerable to your God.

Instead of trying to discredit inspired people here... why not try to think about what they are saying. Even Jesus recommended that... when you listen to the Pharisees - take the good points and discard the bad. So... why is common sense very uncommon.

Allah gave humanity the Qur'an for us to think, reflect and be thankful about this life and his creation and provision. now, if you will rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part... that is a form of SHIRK. to further explain my point: If anybody who willshow his badge around saying this is true - does that make him credible? So another guy claiming to have the truth - but he is only a deputy - worse - he has no badge - does that mean we cannot take his word?

Therefore the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) also has no college degree, he cant even read nor write - he merely recited the Qur'an - Gods' words... and this is the TRUTH! are you going to question his credentials?

Well... most prophets had no college degree nor doctorates... and all the world is now busy producing doctorates to question, analyze, and worse discredit the Qur'an. This has been the drive since time immemorial.

I can't believe it is still happening up to now.

OK, Let's challenge you credentials... the fact that you have raised that question or argument... I sense you are driving the topic into something. And that is - to discredit a simple truth!

Truth is never complicated... even a small child will know it when he sees it.

If a Muslim is confronted by a human made situation... he needs to think and he needs to apply common sense. Now if he is confronted by something God-made... then he need to apply uncommon sense... that is - accept it. How do he knows it's from God? - then again - you will need to use your uncommon "COMMON SENSE!"

MAKE SENSE?

 

[Malaikah]

is there any point in writing page after page to explain apostasy and treason to people when someone can ruin it all with a single line?

Not until you accept that there are different opinions on a matter.

 

[lilah]

How about Reading the Quran 1 chapter per sitting - 5 times a day for one year? Are you questioning the credibility of the Qur'an? - I believe you want to say that the lesser books has more credibility?

I real Muslim will never attempt to claim something he has no knowledge of.... and If the truth has been given to him - and He witholds the information or revelation - He will be accountable to Allah SWT.

I will tell you what is the nature of something that does not come from Allah Subhanawatalallah.... If an information is not inspired or guided - It will be confusing and it will never be standing alone per se. It will need back-up.

This is the nature of lies. Lies cannot stand alone... just like the nature of Shaytan and his companions... they are a legion.

But the TRUTH can stand alone... just like Gods' nature... HE IS ONE! - no need for back-ups.

If you are trying to discredit me. You will be needing a lot of backup. Please never under estimate a man who uses simple words. I spent my whole lifetime trying to learn the laymans terms and also studying the nature of lies and liars... at the same time studying the true nature of God and Man.

I donot claim to be an islamic scholar nor a christian natural moral law master... but I do claim only one thing. The Truth revealed to me by Allah - and I have no doubts about it.

I already literally throw my personal library away because I have found the Qur'an. ... Yes, I had a library and and I loved books - but I will not claim to be an authority of any Human Games of Arrogance.

If you are only posting here with prejudice and an ulterior motive other than sharing the truth but instead be a block for the people who want to know the truth - then you will be answerable to your God.

Instead of trying to discredit inspired people here... why not try to think about what they are saying. Even Jesus recommended that... when you listen to the Pharisees - take the good points and discard the bad. So... why is common sense very uncommon.

Allah gave humanity the Qur'an for us to think, reflect and be thankful about this life and his creation and provision. now, if you will rely on the islamic scholars interpretation alone without thinking on your part... that is a form of SHIRK. to further explain my point: If anybody who willshow his badge around saying this is true - does that make him credible? So another guy claiming to have the truth - but he is only a deputy - worse - he has no badge - does that mean we cannot take his word?

Therefore the Prophet Muhamad (pbuh) also has no college degree, he cant even read nor write - he merely recited the Qur'an - Gods' words... and this is the TRUTH! are you going to question his credentials?

Well... most prophets had no college degree nor doctorates... and all the world is now busy producing doctorates to question, analyze, and worse discredit the Qur'an. This has been the drive since time immemorial.

I can't believe it is still happening up to now.

OK, Let's challenge you credentials... the fact that you have raised that question or argument... I sense you are driving the topic into something. And that is - to discredit a simple truth!

Truth is never complicated... even a small child will know it when he sees it.

If a Muslim is confronted by a human made situation... he needs to think and he needs to apply common sense. Now if he is confronted by something God-made... then he need to apply uncommon sense... that is - accept it. How do he knows it's from God? - then again - you will need to use your uncommon "COMMON SENSE!"

MAKE SENSE?

This is perfect example of what i meant....you seemed to interpret my post based on your own perception of what you think i meant..... i had to do a double take when reading your post....

the intent of my post was that of a general warning for those on the board that interpret the meaning quran/hadith without proper knowledge to do so. It's one thing to study, learn, and teach the quran...quite another to interpret the meanings of the verses or hadith....

The Qur’an is guidance for all humanity but not everyone who reads it will get guidance from it. Qur’an reserves its guidance for those who sincerely seek it and approach it in the proper way and the right attitude. Many who have ignored these basic requirements have gone astray in their study of the Qur’an.

Interpreting the Qur’an requires expertise in several areas. First, one must have a firm command over classical Arabic language including its vocabulary, grammar, metaphors, and idioms.

Second, one must know the history of the Qur’an including where and when a verse was revealed; what other verses deal with the same subject; which of those, if any, supercede others. We must remember that the Qur’an is the first resource for its own interpretation.

Third, one must have good command over the Hadith literature, as it was the Prophet’s job to explain the Qur’an to us and no other interpretation of a Qur’anic verse is acceptable in the presence of an authentic Hadith that explains it.

Fourth, one must have knowledge of the comments of the Companions and their successors. After Qur’an and Hadith, they are the third most important resource in interpreting the Qur’an.

Fifth, one must have knowledge of the rich tafseer literature produced by the most reputed scholars of this Ummah.

Sixth, one must have sound knowledge of Shariah since no interpretation of the Qur’an is acceptable that violates accepted Shariah principles.

Seventh, one must be leading a life of taqwa and piety, as the Qur’an does not open doors to its understanding on those who are not serious in following it.

We cannot just open the Qur’an and start interpreting it as if we are starting on ground zero. Anyone taking this road must be reminded of this grave warning: Sayyidna Abdullah bin Abbas, Radi-Allahu anhu, reported that Prophet MuhammadSall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam said, “Whoever says something in interpreting the Qur’an based on his own opinion should find his place in the Fire.” [Tirmidhi Hadith No. 4023]

Unfortunately, today a lot of well meaning people are doing just this. They start, say, a Qur’anic study group, and start giving lectures on Qur’an. If the person is a good speaker, he might also get warm reception from an audience that confuses eloquence with scholarship. Soon, they start giving expert opinions about Shariah and Qur’an without having even the minimum qualification for it. Many a time, the audience participates equally excitedly, discussing the Words of Allah and delicate issues of Shariah with the same assumed expertise that is normally reserved for discussion of latest current affairs.

This casual attitude must be contrasted with that of the Companions. They not only new the language of the Qur’an better then anyone else, they were witnesses to its very revelation. Yet, they did not dare interpret it without first learning it, verse by verse, from Prophet Muhammad Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam himself. And even then they exercised extreme caution in making comments about the Qur’an. Sayyidna Abu Bakr, Radi-Allahu anhu, said: ”Which land will give me protection and which sky will give me cover if I say something in interpreting the Qur’an without knowledge.” Similarly, Yazid bin Yazid reports: ”We used to ask Sayyidna Saeed bin Al-Musayeb, Radi-Allahu anhu, regarding Halal and Haram. And he was the most knowledgeable person regarding it. But whenever we asked him to give tafsir for a verse he would keep quite as if he had not heard us.”

They knew that Qur’an declares that is has been made easy for remembrance, but they did not misinterpret it as a license to give personal opinions in areas of belief or law. Their caution stemmed from their realization that to say that a verse means such and such, is to attribute a statement to Allah!

source: http://www.albalagh.net/food_for_thought/quran4.shtml

My point is this....

When somebody asks for an interpretation for a hadith or quranic verse we should be careful with how we respond... we can't use our gut feelings, or perceptions of the world around us as a basis for an interpretation ESPECIALLY WITHOUT SUPPORTING EVIDENCES!

You mentioned that Muhammed (pbuh) was not a scholar, but he was in that he was taught by Allah (SWT) ...now, if you can claim the same thing, then i apologize for my rush to judgment.

more sources:
http://www.quranicstudies.com/article98.html
http://www.harunyahya.com/unwise02.php

Allahu A3lam

 

[barney]

Not until you accept that there are different opinions on a matter.

Nice reply! :thumbs_up

 

[lilah]

Here is the reference you asked. It's from Sahih Book 17.

Quote:
Book 017, Number 4207:

Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacrificed her life for Allah, the Majestic?
.

This hadith is one of many regarding this situation. Here's another:

Sahih Bukhari Book 017, Number 4206:

'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

In the above hadith we can see that:
The adulteress approached the prophet and asked that she be purified.
The prophet gave the adulterer and adulteress an opportunity to walk away from punishment.
In the situation with the adulteress she voluntarily came back to him after the child was weaned (he did not imprison her or order any kind of police bring her back to him)
Her punishment was so that she be purified and avoid punishment in the akihra..


and Allah swt knows best

 

[barney]

Indeed it's a large mental gap that im trying to cross here.

The prophet ordered a stoning, then when one of the stoners got splattered with blood and screamed some obcenitys at the woman for splattering him, the prophet said to be gentle in the stoning.

Aye, cos the lass having her head caved in would certainly take offence to old Khalids insults.

I keep typing stuff here and entering delete, cos I dont know how to express my thoughts on this one.
Better off with a zipped mouth.

Horrible story.

 

[Malaikah]

You must have missed the part of the story were she offered herself for punishment although she wasn't meant to!! it wasn't the prophets fault, he tried to ignore her because he didn't want to punish her, but she wouldn't leave him.

"Be gentle" meant that he should not curse her and verbally abuse her, not that he should be gentle in throwing.

 

[barney]

No i diddnt miss that at all.
If someone came up to me and asked me to stone em, I'd tell em to get on their bike. If they came three times or 3 thousand times, i would never , if i had the power he weilded, order a stoning.

Regardless: Where is the sanity in ordering someone to be smashed to peices with rocks then telling the murderers to talk nicely to the victim.
.

 

[lilah]

Indeed it's a large mental gap that im trying to cross here.

The prophet ordered a stoning, then when one of the stoners got splattered with blood and screamed some obcenitys at the woman for splattering him, the prophet said to be gentle in the stoning.

Aye, cos the lass having her head caved in would certainly take offence to old Khalids insults.

I keep typing stuff here and entering delete, cos I dont know how to express my thoughts on this one.
Better off with a zipped mouth.

Horrible story.

It is no different than a criminal turning themselves in to the law in today's modern times. Both the adulterer AND adulteress turned themselves in despite the fact that they knew what the punishment was for that crime...

Early Muslims of that era understood the value of this life in contrast to the value of the afterlife. Punishment via stoning is nothing in comparison to punishment of the grave or punishment in hellfire, so by facing their punishment here, they are no longer held accountable for this sin in the afterlife. The lesson here that this woman recognized the benefits of purifying herself in this life so that she may have paradise in the afterlife which she will enjoy for eternity

But i suppose i understand your unfavorable view of this story...after all in today's modern and hip times, adultery and fornication REALLY isn't much of a crime. In fact fornication and adultery is encouraged (especially if committed by a male)... i guess a similar situation would be a serial killer turning himself/herself into the law and asking for the death penalty. Imagine if 1,000 years from now murder becomes as acceptable as adultery/fornication...the people of the future would not comprehend why it is that the killer had to die just because he killed a few guys for no reason.

as for Khalid's curse...it wasn't because blood was spattered...he cursed her for her sin. A response of human nature. We all do it all the time, when a criminal is seen being brought to justice on tv, i hear people make blind judgmental comments like, 'He deserved it' or 'Hope he rotts in Hell'

But the prophet (SWT) corrected Khalid and said that despite her sin and punishment that she was purified of her crime.

Today, we do not have the same kind of empathy for a person that commits a crime and faces his/her punishment....if a person commits a crime there's a stigma cast on that person that haunts him/her forever...it's hard to forgive a criminal even after they faced their sentence...

 

[barney]

And in times of ignorance witches were burned at the stake, their crimes were blasphemy against God.
Stoning is a prescribed islamic punishment that is carried out today.

Mankind cant progress when it is locked in thousands of year old bigotry.


What did the pre-islamic arabs do to adulterers? Stone them.
Pagan laws went unchanged. Why?
Did Pagans stumble across Gods chosen desires for adulterers?

Well ok, in these modern hip times where we dont mow down sunday shoppers for working on sunday, or immolate rock bands are we progressing? Surely we are going against Gods will!

Islamic revalations on punishment were in my opinion instituted to fit in with the society of that day and age. once they became Gods unchangable word then mankind is doomed to sit in the age of ignorance and barbarism for eternity.

 

[believer]

and Allah swt knows best

One question:

I sense we have to take the topic into an academic perspective.... If a sinner wanted to repent, but the equivalent punishment for his/her offense is death... How will he/she achieve an acceptable repentance to Allah SWT?

Technically - Suicide is out of the question - unless they really wanted to go to hell.

Nowadays, people are not really afraid of the consequence of sins...

 

[believer]

And in times of ignorance witches were burned at the stake, their crimes were blasphemy against God.
Stoning is a prescribed islamic punishment that is carried out today.

Mankind cant progress when it is locked in thousands of year old bigotry.


What did the pre-islamic arabs do to adulterers? Stone them.
Pagan laws went unchanged. Why?
Did Pagans stumble across Gods chosen desires for adulterers?

Well ok, in these modern hip times where we dont mow down sunday shoppers for working on sunday, or immolate rock bands are we progressing? Surely we are going against Gods will!

Islamic revalations on punishment were in my opinion instituted to fit in with the society of that day and age. once they became Gods unchangable word then mankind is doomed to sit in the age of ignorance and barbarism for eternity.

You are right... but I am not sure about the stoning part... Are you sure they are still doing this?