Theories

IbnAbdulHakim said:
it doesnt make sense for the initial creator to have a creator, if it made sense then there would be no such thing as existence, therefore you should realise the argument itself is illogical.

Also the only reason you find it "pleading" as you say is because you cant comprehend what the very first creator is like, i dont blame you, no one cant comprehend it, he is something no mind can imagine, no brain can summarise,its hopeless to try think about just how the very first creator (ALLAH!!) is.., but logic agrees with it. Its the only way anything can come to be...
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Why thou? God not having a creator and the universe creating itself and not having a creator is essentially the same ladder but with an extra unverifiable rung to it.

If you want to argue that God is creatorless, it is special pleading because you can provide no evidence to avoid the problem of infinite regression. Essentially, its a "because its what I believe" arguement.
 
Isambard said:
Why thou? God not having a creator and the universe creating itself and not having a creator is essentially the same ladder but with an extra unverifiable rung to it.

If you want to argue that God is creatorless, it is special pleading because you can provide no evidence to avoid the problem of infinite regression. Essentially, its a "because its what I believe" arguement.
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:w:

It is difficult to find the appropriate words to express what we mean. So when we do sound like we are making it into it a "because its what I believe, argument" that is basicaly because we do not know how to present it any other way. It is our lack of debating skills.
 
^ jazakAllahu khair uncle woodrow!


isambard, SIR ! if you could simply take our understanding of God and implant it into yourself you would see why it is so easy to understand that God couldnt possible have been created. Everything else you can look at and think "YES, this was surely created" but God when you think about him and his asma wa siffaat (names and attributes), you just simply know that he has not been created.....
 
Something alot of people don't understand is that for something to be Perfect, it can't be dependant upon another. Therefore to say that God is dependant upon another is false, because we know that God is Perfect. Therefore He doesn't need to be created, since He is Perfect.
 
- Qatada - said:
Something alot of people don't understand is that for something to be Perfect, it can't be dependant upon another. Therefore to say that God is dependant upon another is false, because we know that God is Perfect. Therefore He doesn't need to be created, since He is Perfect.
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bro are the angels not perfect? isnt jannah perfect? isnt muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam perfect? :?
 
Woodrow said:
:w:

It is difficult to find the appropriate words to express what we mean. So when we do sound like we are making it into it a "because its what I believe, argument" that is basicaly because we do not know how to present it any other way. It is our lack of debating skills.
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Fair enough.

Take your time and present the evidence as you see fit. :)
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
^ jazakAllahu khair uncle woodrow!


isambard, SIR ! if you could simply take our understanding of God and implant it into yourself you would see why it is so easy to understand that God couldnt possible have been created. Everything else you can look at and think "YES, this was surely created" but God when you think about him and his asma wa siffaat (names and attributes), you just simply know that he has not been created.....
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The existence of an object only proves that it exists. To determine its origins, composition, purpose etc. one needs to investigate further.

-There isnt any apperent purpose to the universe (or life for that matter)
-All the previous transitions/unknown phenomena attributed to God's love/wrath are shown to be random and seem to have little or nothing to do with any sort of outside will or personal repentence
-If God existed before the universe, then he himself would also be without purpose as there is really nothing to do.
-There is nothing to prove God exists and if he does, then there is also no real reason to assume he wasnt greater by a more powerful god, and that god by another etc.
 
^ most ur answers are basically "i dont know", im saying that we have the answers and we're sure about it. Its only a matter of "you dont understand".


I wont dwelve much further :)
 
- Qatada - said:
Something alot of people don't understand is that for something to be Perfect, it can't be dependant upon another. Therefore to say that God is dependant upon another is false, because we know that God is Perfect. Therefore He doesn't need to be created, since He is Perfect.
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Ah, but my friend, that line of reasoning has been used before by Plato (forms) and refuted by his very student Aristotle!

To make a long-winded philosophy short, perfection, what constitues a virtue, even best political system etc. are all relative.

To stay on topic lets just focus on the first bit.

If I asked you what is, the perfect woman, you would give me the description of what you believe to be a perfect woman.
If you asked me the same question, I would most likely give you a different description of what i believe to be a perfect woman.
If we asked my sister, she would give a very different answer from either of us.

So then, which of the descriptions is the true perfect woman?

You get a similar scenerio when describing a deity. Just ask folks of various monotheistic religions/sects what God is, what he means to them, what he does etc.

Which one of these descriptions/depictions is correct?

You also need to remember that prior to the rise of organized christianity, most of the world religions regarded self-creation irreverent with their ideal perfect deity(ies). :D
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
^ most ur answers are basically "i dont know", im saying that we have the answers and we're sure about it. Its only a matter of "you dont understand".


I wont dwelve much further :)
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Having an answer by no means that it is the "Correct Answer".
It is all a matter of belief. You believe you have "Correct Answer".
 
IbnAbdulHakim said:
^ most ur answers are basically "i dont know", im saying that we have the answers and we're sure about it. Its only a matter of "you dont understand".


I wont dwelve much further :)
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I always find using another framework of mind to convince them of your point is most effective.

If you are willing to indulge in mine, then simply create another thread and list some reasons you feel are very strong for the existence of God :)
 
Isambard said:
Which one of these descriptions/depictions is correct?
:D
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the one which came about from the True God. How can a human describe God when its beyond his comprehension? you must research and find out wether the man who delivered the message of God was indeed a true messenger. This can be found out by simply researching on his character, the facts about him etc. You can then find out if his message is still valid, and find out if its for the whole of mankind. The one which you find to be most Correct has delivered an Account of the True God.


^ i hope that made sense :)
 
Isambard said:
If you are willing to indulge in mine, then simply create another thread and list some reasons you feel are very strong for the existence of God :)
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lol

1. he caused the beginning of existence though he has no beginning
2. without him nothing makes sense
3. it is illogical to assume everything just "became" from nothing
4. There is something inside every human which inclines him towards God
5. it is only sin and deception which leads him to believe otherwise in later life
6. everything Allah and his messenger has said is true, and we have seen it to be true.
7. This life without purpose is like making a machine for no reason.
8. to questions Gods purpose for creation is like questioning a male what he should name his son? its illogical ! a man cannot have a son and Gods purpose for creation can never be understood until the day of judgement so questioning it isnt worth it, its a mystery which awaits.
9. THE LIFE OF THE MESSENGER MUHAMMAD SALLALLAHI ALAIHI WASALLAAM!
10. THE BLESSINGS OF THE BREATH, THE SIGHT, THE HEARING, THE SMELL, THE TOUCH...

^ the last two are the main reasons, after reading the true authentic life of Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam, you will either love him completely/regard him as the best of humanity or become a muslim (which also involves the former!)
 
Isambard said:
Fair enough.

Take your time and present the evidence as you see fit. :)
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To be honest I doubt very much I could present sufficient evidence that you would accept as proof. The reason being we will have a difficult if not impossible time in finding mutualy acceptable sources. My primary source would be the Qur'an. I believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt). My reasons for accepting it as an authentic source is based on evidence I have verified to my personal satisfaction.

1. There are things written in the Qur'an people of that time era had no way of understanding. I won't waste either of our times by repeating any of them as you have most likely already read and disagreed with the various wonders in the Qur'an, such as the roots of mountains, separation of the seas etc.

2. Having spent much of my life as a student of linguistics. I have come to the conclusion that no man is capable of writing one original sentence in Qur'anic Arabic, yet the Qur'an has 114 Surahs written in it. My argument for that would take this way off topic. But, To me that in itself is sufficient evidence that the Qur'an is the truth.

I can see 3 possible scenarios to the concept of an eternal God(swt).

1. God(swt) does not exist.

That is an impossible statement to prove or disprove so the alternative is to examine other possibilities and see if any of them are probable.

2. God(swt) exists, but is not eternal and had a begining.

Logic at first dictates this is a probability. Further inspection raises the question as to what created the creator, so it becomes a very redundant unprovable statement.

3. God(swt) exists and has always existed. That makes the most sense in terms of the nature of what God(swt) is believed to be. The concept of a god would not be a god if it was a finite being created by some means.

So we are back to square one.

one of these statements is most probably the true statement.

A. God(swt) exists

B. God(swt) does not exist

B. is a negative statement and as such can be neither proved nor disproved.

The burden is upon proving A. God(swt) exists.

Evidence:

Throughout recorded history people of all nations have had people declaring that they have recieved a directive from a Supreme being.

Many witnesses have stated they have seen abnormal happenings (Miracles) that were revealed to show the presence of God(swt)

Nearly every if not all cultures have some form of worship of a superior being.

Matter exists, it was either a spontaneous event or it is the product of a creator. If it was the product of a spontaneous event, there should be evidence that the same conditions that caused it have occurred many times. That has not been found. If it was a spontaneous event the factors that caused it should be qualified and quantifiable. That has not been done. There is no evidence to show that matter can or did occur spontaneously.

There is evidence to show matter was created and it is unique in the space time continuum. It can be shown that all matter is of the same age. It can be shown that all matter is spreading outward from a single point of origin, indicating a beginning. There is no evidence that matter has ever originated in any other place or time.

The fact that matter exists, has a definite origin and is unique is in accordance and in agreement with what divine revelation has stated.

Based on that I submit that the preponderance of evidence favors the existence of an eternal creator.
 
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