Crime and Punishment

[Woodrow]

This has developed into quite a debate. However, I must commend the participants for keeping it reasonably peaceful.

 

[جوري]

Why should these be punishable offenses in the first place?

Have to draw the line somewhere to be quite frank, I am not sure where yours is and, it is of no consequence to me...

In Stalinist Russian most of organized religion was outlawed. But I guess that's okay with you because all you'd have to do was make sure you didn't get caught worshipping Allah, correct?

that is something you have to tinker with on your own private time.. that is what athiesm is all about not religion. Under sharia law you are free to be whatever faith you want to be.. and I can quote the Quran but I have a feeling you'd be uninterested!

I did know this, for a matter of fact (though I understand there is some difference of opinion on this matter). In any case, it is certainly not hard to imagine a situation where four people witness a case of blasphemy.

indeed.. no difference than the trial of Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg who arrested on charges of espionage against the U.S, and put to death.. that it what it means to betray the state.. when there is an actual Islamis state! Although I am not really sure what you are talking about, when you write blasphemy? People curse religion day in and day out, I haven't seen anyone punished for it yet! is it something you cooked up for MSNBC and came to accuse us of?

Again, you seem to be saying it's okay to have these laws because you could just avoid getting caught breaking them?

I am very ok with the laws!

Actually, it was the DSM-II, and it was a distinct disorder from "necrophilia and pedophilia," but that's not so important.

here is my source.. but since you are a licensed psychiatrist, and this info just happened to be laying there in the back of your head waiting for the right moment, then who am I to get in the way of good solid references?

Behavioral health and mental disorders — It was only in 1973 that homosexuality was declassified as a mental disorder. More recently, the term "ego-dystonic homosexuality" was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-III) written in 1986. There have been no major studies that have looked specifically at issues of mental health in the gay and lesbian population. Nevertheless, some smaller studies have identified higher rates of major depressive disorders and bipolar disorders in gay men [30]. There also appears to be an increased prevalence of anxiety disorders particularly in relation to a man's growing consciousness of being gay and struggling to come out [31].

While there has been debate about whether gay men are at higher risk for suicide, there have been many studies of increased suicidal ideation and suicide attempts among gay men. Rates are particularly high among gay youth; suicidal ideation and attempts are three to seven times higher among gay youth than among heterosexuals [32]. Gay adolescents and men have also been found to have increased disorders of body image as well as eating disorders [33].

Despite the lack of clear data from solid research, the environment in which many gay adolescents and adults grow up, the violence faced by many at times in their lives, and the anxiety and fear during the process of coming out can leave emotional scars that often need to be addressed during adolescent or adult life. As a result, discussion of these and related issues is important and referral for counseling and/or psychopharmacological intervention is often warranted.

check it out on uptodate.com

Of course, we've all heard the slippery slope argument against homosexuality before. To answer your question, pedophelia is wrong because it is generally agreed that a child cannot consent. Children are are vulnerable and easy to manipulate. Sex between two consenting adults, regardless of gender, simply doesn't encounter this problem (unless perhaps one of them is mentally retarded).

You are not answering my question with much substance.. I am afraid, you are just rationalizing!

As for the problem with necrophelia, to be honest I'm not really sure I have a problem legally with it—irregardless of my personal feelings on the matter. Whether it's a psychological disorder, I'm not qualified to say either, though I would venture to guess that people who want to engage in such behavior have some rather disturbing personal issues. Homosexuality, on the other hand, seems to be a natural inclination among a small segment of the population; many people have reported feeling urges. Research has shown that gender is not a binary either/or difference but functions more like a spectrum. And homosexual behavior has been observed among a number of other species.

indeed observed amongst men with Klüver-Bucy syndrome .. you know folks with brain damage.... but I actually see where you are coming from.. when people strip themselves of their dignity and dignity is generally reached through higher thought and religion, all they are left with is animal behavior.. they decide they have come from animals and go back to behaving like them... It is very easy.. easy to lust, easy to copulate with anything, easy to condemn sound laws as harsh and letting criminals go free because it appears so 'humanistic'...

I haven't seen any medical research of substance proving that homosexuality is anything but a choice of depraved individuals...who in the very least should seek treatment as to not engage in this most demeaning act-- you want to bring something to the table make sure it is from JAMA, NEJM or the Lancet, not wikipedia or google!

In light of all this, I can certainly see why the DSM was revised. As we learn more about nature and humanity, we must revise our knowledge.

lol yeah --Got to wonder what gay psychiatrist lobbied for that, leaving his buddies the likes of Carl Tanzler behind as a deviant!

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that it is better to follow unchanging laws from 1,300 years ago than laws that are subject to change as we learn more about the world?

There are no laws more complete than those of sharia.. your misunderstanding of them or refusal to accept certain if not all aspects, is really more of your problem that mine. I am not going to suddenly see the light because you wrote it with such bravado.. I see no logic or conviction at all in anything you write!.. we are dealing with an ideal society as opposed to what we see today.. and has in fact done very well for centuries from the Abbasid to the Fatimids to the Ummayid , heck even the ottoman's brought the mighty army of peter the great to its knees.. I think a formula that worked, worked so well for a reason! until people decided to give it up for man made constitution of the 1800 by racist men, who not 50 years ago asked a black woman to move to the back of the bus... and not ten yrs ago dragged a man to his death by tying him to a car until he was skinned to death... and and and and...

I suppose you also think it's better to follow the cosmology of the ancient Hebrews and Arabs, who believed the sun revolved around the earth—rather than believe in man-made science that's subject to change as we study nature?

I think it is best to follow Islam.. it was Islam that gave us Abu Abd Allah Muhammad al-Idrisi 1100-d. 1165 or 1166 who gave Roger the II a globe of the earth, which Roger Crushed in favor of a 'flat' earth... again read a little before engaging me with oh that so thick air of condescension!

By the standards of Christianity, the Quran's claim that Jesus says God has no son is blasphemy.

This concerns me how?

Some sects of Hinduism would consider Islam's strident monotheism and disparaging remarks about the polytheists as blasphemy.

Again, this too concerns me how?

That's a rather high estimate, most sources I've seen say 1.4, which, out of 6.5 billion, is about a fifth. Though I did round down a little because, of course, not all Muslims are practicing Muslims.

well get your sources up to date it is 1.86 bil!...Whether they are practicing or not, it is between them and their maker... still nearly 1/3..

But of course, I'm sure you're aware that you're nitpicking here without addressing my question. Why should blasphemy against your religion be punishable when most of the world does not believe in your religion? I'm still waiting to hear an answer.

How is blasphemy against my religion punishable? and what are your sources.. I need religious sources not last nights fox news!

Your reason for punishing homosexuality is that it's better to blindly trust old laws than change laws as we learn more about the world.

I am not blindly following.. I have given theology the bulk of my years.

Your reason for punishing blasphemy is that ... well, I haven't heard a reason there.

You seem fixated?

And you seem to be claiming that it wouldn't be so bad for homosexuals and blasphemers if these laws were on the books, since they could always just avoid getting caught.

Your standards of the law or justice don't concern me.. I don't have to justify to you why I think homosexuality is a sin or deviant or whatever... it is inconsequential to me what you deem appropriate! you sing and dance around the same two phrases.. is that all you have in your bag of tricks, these are your objections? Please don't waste my time!

In short, no, I don't think you've given any good reasons whatsoever.

This does go both ways.. not only do I think you disjointed, but frankly I don't see you as having an ethical motive whatsoever.. you'd rather return us to some pre-historic animal stage where 'humans' copulate in public like animals and with whomever, while cursing your mother...

nice...

cheers!

 

[Qingu]

that is something you have to tinker with on your own private time.. that is what athiesm is all about not religion. Under sharia law you are free to be whatever faith you want to be.. and I can quote the Quran but I have a feeling you'd be uninterested!

Please do quote the Quran. I was under the impression that unbelievers are only "free" to the extent that they pay jizya, refuse to bear arms or witness against Muslims, and wear special clothing to mark them as unbelievers. I believe the jizya is taken from 9:29, and the rest is from the hadith.

I was also under the impression that blasphemy, in Islam, entails criticism of God or any of his prophets, and that such action is punishable by death in shariah law. Am I incorrect?

indeed.. no difference than the trial of Julius and Ethyl Rosenberg who arrested on charges of espionage against the U.S, and put to death.. that it what it means to betray the state.. when there is an actual Islamis state!

It sounds like you are talking about punishing apostasy, not blasphemy. So you believe that apostasy in Islam is only punishable when there is a caliphate?

If there is a caliphate, are you saying that a Muslim who loses his or her faith deserves to be killed?

I am very ok with the laws!

I understand you are okay with them, but it sounds like you are suggesting that I should be okay with them—for the reason that, if I try, I could get away with breaking them. You essentially said that one could get away with adultery under shariah law because you need four witnesses, thus implying that people who are okay with adultery needn't be opposed to shariah law. Did I misunderstand you?

here is my source.. but since you are a licensed psychiatrist, and this info just happened to be laying there in the back of your head waiting for the right moment, then who am I to get in the way of good solid references?
check it out on uptodate.com

Your source does not say what you claimed (that homosexuality is a disorder "exactly like" pedophelia and necrophelia".

You are not answering my question with much substance.. I am afraid, you are just rationalizing!

You asked me why I am okay with homosexuality but opposed to pedophelia and necrophelia. I gave you a rather detailed answer. Is there anything in particular you'd like me to expound upon? I'd be glad to.

indeed observed amongst men with Klüver-Bucy syndrome .. you know folks with brain damage....

You are confusing homosexuality with opportunistic hypersexuality.

but I actually see where you are coming from.. when people strip themselves of their dignity and dignity is generally reached through higher thought and religion, all they are left with is animal behavior..

On the contrary, this is in no way an argument for homosexuality. It is an argument against the claim that homosexuality is in any way "unnatural" or a "choice." It occurs in nature among animals so obviously it is not a choice.

I haven't seen any medical research of substance proving that homosexuality is anything but a choice of depraved individuals...who in the very least should seek treatment as to not engage in this most demeaning act!

What a strange thing to say. Did you choose to be a heterosexual? I certainly didn't. I'm confused how one would choose a sexual orientation in the first place.

As for a biological basis for sexual orientation, there have been many studies. Most recently, scientists found that younger brothers from large families are more often gay than older brothers. The reason for this is that the mother does not secrete as many hormones in subsequent children, which influences their development.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/28/10531

Like most behaviors, there obviously isn't a "gay gene," but a number of studies have made it pretty clear that there are obviously several biological factors at work in determining one's sexual preferences.

In any case, to be frank, I find it rather disquieting that you believe people who pose absolutely no danger to themselves or to others should "seek treatment."

lol yeah --Got to wonder what gay psychiatrist lobbied for that, leaving his buddies the like of Carl Tanzler behind as a deviant!

You would do better to wonder why nearly the entire scientific community, including psychologists, psychiatrists, and biologists supports the idea that homosexuality is not a disease, nor a choice.

There are no laws more complete than those of sharia.. your misunderstanding of them or refusal to accept certain aspects, is really inconsequential.. we are dealing with an ideal society as opposed to what we see today.. and has in fact done very well for centuries from the Abbasid to the Fatimids to the Ummayid , heck even the ottoman's brought the mighty army of peter the great to its knees..

What a strange thing to say! You are judging a shariah society's worth based on its ability to conquer an opposing culture. Why am I not surprised.

Personally, I would judge a legal system's worth by its ability to hold society together peacefully. Of course, the Abbasids, the Umayyads, the Fatimids, the Ottomans—all of these societies were plagued by almost constant civil war (i.e. fitna).

I think a formula that worked, worked so well for a reason! until people decided to give it up for man made constitution of the 1800 by racist men, who not 50 years ago asked a black woman to move to the back of the bus... and not ten yrs ago dragged a man to his death by tying him to a car until he was skinned to death... and and and and...

It's strange that you are attacking racism in Western culture, as if I somehow endorse this pathetic period in America's history—unlike Muslims, most Westerners are ashamed of much of their past and hope to grow from it, not imitate it. That said, as I understand it plenty of Arab Muslims are plenty racist. And Muslim countries were the last to outlaw slavery. Islam hardly has the high ground here.

I think it is best to follow Islam.. it was Islam that gave us Abu Abd Allah Muhammad al-Idrisi 1100-d. 1165 or 1166 who gave Roger the II a globe of the earth, which Roger Crushed in favor of a 'flat' earth... again read a little before engaging me with oh that so thick air of condescension!

This doesn't really address my point.

You claim that laws which do not change are better than laws that are subject to change based on new evidence.

Do you believe the same thing about scientific laws?

This concerns me how?

You had claimed that Islam does not blaspheme other religions. This is not true.

well get your sources up to date it is 1.86 bil!...Whether they are practicing or not, it is between them and their maker... still nearly 1/3..

Again, there are a variety of sources, and this is rather unimportant.

How is blasphemy against my religion punishable? and what are your sources.. I need religious sources not last nights fox news!

Blasphemy against Muhammad is, I believe, punishable by death under Pakistan's shariah court. Apostasy is well-known to be punishable by death under shariah law. If I am not mistaken, the Quranic precedent for killing blasphemers is when Muhammad ordered the assassination of poets who mocked him.

Your standards of the law or justice don't concern me.. I don't have to justify to you why I think homosexuality is a sin or deviant or whatever...

Sure you do, if you ever hope to convince me why I should want to uphold your religion's system of laws.

This does go both ways.. not only do I think you disjointed, but frankly I don't see you as having an ethical motive whatsoever.. you'd rather return us to some pre-historic animal stage where 'humans' copulate in public like animals and with whomever, while cursing your mother...

I would like to take this opportunity to comment on the tone of your response to me.

I greatly disagree with you, but at the same time I can respect that you have given thought to your position and you believe your position is morally justified. I have tried my best to show you respect in my posts.

Frankly, your tone throughout your posts has been insulting and condescending, filled with empty rhetoric and insinuations that I am ignorant about various subjects. In the above paragraph, you suggest that I have no morals and that I want to live life as an animal.

Imagine if I took a similar tone to you. I would probably be banned.

I hope it's clear that I do not want people to act like animals and that actually my problems with Islam (and religion in general) are largely on moral grounds. We differ on our morals, but we both have them, and it is insulting to insinuate otherwise. I sincerely hope you at least try to show me more respect in the future.

 

[جوري]

Please do quote the Quran. I was under the impression that unbelievers are only "free" to the extent that they pay jizya, refuse to bear arms or witness against Muslims, and wear special clothing to mark them as unbelievers. I believe the jizya is taken from 9:29, and the rest is from the hadith.

Oneness of God, Unity of Mankind
The Quran
There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256

Say (O Muhammad): "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." -- 3:84

For each we have appointed a divine law and traced out the way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you He made you as ye are. So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and will then inform you of that wherein ye differ. -- 5:48

Do not dispute with the people of the Book [Jews, Christians, Sabeans], unless it be in a way that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us, and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender. -- 29:46

O mankind! We created you from a single soul, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may come to know one another. Truly, the most honored of you in God's sight is the greatest of you in piety. God is All-Knowing, All-Aware. -- 49:13


plus Jizya is nothing more than tax.. I don't see you protesing tax now do you? a Non-Muslim doesn't have nor needs to join the army under an Islamic state, that is what jizya is for! .. there will come a time when Jizya will be abolished however, Book 37, Number 4310 states that Jesus will come again, and at that time will (among other things) abolish jizya, as Allah will "perish all religions except Islam".[19] Sunan Abu-Dawud

I was also under the impression that blasphemy, in Islam, entails criticism of God or any of his prophets, and that such action is punishable by death in shariah law. Am I incorrect?

This is the first I have heard of it.. If it were the case, why was Maimondes when expelled from Spain and taken into Muslim lands allowed to write a book mocking the sons of Ishmael unharmed?

It sounds like you are talking about punishing apostasy, not blasphemy. So you believe that apostasy in Islam is only punishable when there is a caliphate?

that is correct.. you may check the search feature to read more about it

If there is a caliphate, are you saying that a Muslim who loses his or her faith deserves to be killed?

what is the difference between someone who hates America and someone actively working in espionage? carry that analogy over.. if you simply want to disbelief, it is your prerogative, Many apostates existed around the time of Prophet Mohammed PBUH unharmed...

I understand you are okay with them, but it sounds like you are suggesting that I should be okay with them—for the reason that, if I try, I could get away with breaking them. You essentially said that one could get away with adultery under shariah law because you need four witnesses, thus implying that people who are okay with adultery needn't be opposed to shariah law. Did I misunderstand you?

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, it is 3:02 and I am too tired to concentrate on semantics!

Your source does not say what you claimed (that homosexuality is a disorder "exactly like" pedophelia and necrophelia".

it wasn't meant to, uptodate is latest research, it was more a DSM issue than a homosexuality issue,though my opinion is unchanged on homosexuality!

You asked me why I am okay with homosexuality but opposed to pedophelia and necrophelia. I gave you a rather detailed answer. Is there anything in particular you'd like me to expound upon? I'd be glad to.

my question was rhetorical.. every act of sexual deviance will differ from another.. we can all agree orange is different from green, but can both be classifed under colors!

You are confusing homosexuality with opportunistic hypersexuality.

No.. you were talking about where such behavior was observed in animals and indeed in such a condtion people will engage in UNINHIBITED sexual behavior even with members of the same sex.. I think I should be clear on what I post..

On the contrary, this is in no way an argument for homosexuality. It is an argument against the claim that homosexuality is in any way "unnatural" or a "choice." It occurs in nature among animals so obviously it is not a choice.

we are not animals.. if you wish to be assimilated to an animal, it is your prerogative, not mine! and again, your conclusions/opinion isn't scientific research

What a strange thing to say. Did you choose to be a heterosexual? I certainly didn't. I'm confused how one would choose a sexual orientation in the first place.

I have made a choice indeed..just like I make a choice not to be with animals or dead people.. love is a different matter than Lust.. perhaps you confuse the two?

As for a biological basis for sexual orientation, there have been many studies. Most recently, scientists found that younger brothers from large families are more often gay than older brothers. The reason for this is that the mother does not secrete as many hormones in subsequent children, which influences their development.
http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/103/28/10531

pls don't quote me third party info.. I can't make it anymore clear.. until I see it in JAMA, Lancet/ NEJM, or uptodate, it is a choice...

Like most behaviors, there obviously isn't a "gay gene," but a number of studies have made it pretty clear that there are obviously several biological factors at work in determining one's sexual preferences.

amazing just two posts ago we were modfying the DSM.. again until I see solid medical research in more palpable form of medicine, i.e not psychiatry but genetics or molecular bio can we have this conversation...

In any case, to be frank, I find it rather disquieting that you believe people who pose absolutely no danger to themselves or to others should "seek treatment."

they use aversion therapy on pederast priests with some success, I'd recommend the same for homosexuals!

You would do better to wonder why nearly the entire scientific community, including psychologists, psychiatrists, and biologists supports the idea that homosexuality is not a disease, nor a choice.

I don't know what that means.. many of my colleagues believe it an act of sexual deviance, many have more than just an MD, but MD/PhD, many have spent their life time dedicated to scientific research.. I don't see how that statement coming from you should or could move me really!

What a strange thing to say! You are judging a shariah society's worth based on its ability to conquer an opposing culture. Why am I not surprised.

you seem to pose your own questions and draw your own conclusiuons, I am not sure why you are keeping with this correspondance really?

Personally, I would judge a legal system's worth by its ability to hold society together peacefully. Of course, the Abbasids, the Umayyads, the Fatimids, the Ottomans—all of these societies were plagued by almost constant civil war (i.e. fitna).

really? that was deep man... thanks for that

It's strange that you are attacking racism in Western culture, as if I somehow endorse this pathetic period in America's history—unlike Muslims, most Westerners are ashamed of much of their past and hope to grow from it, not imitate it. That said, as I understand it plenty of Arab Muslims are plenty racist. And Muslim countries were the last to outlaw slavery. Islam hardly has the high ground here.

we have already discussed slavery a few posts ago, I believe you were given a great deal of resources to read, I can only conclude you've read none?... it doesn't concern me how your mind chooses to register or I should say selectively read what it wants and ignores that which doesn't agree with it.. further will add the middle east (Arabic) countries constitute only 18% of the Muslim world so what do you want me to do with that gem you've dropped?

This doesn't really address my point.

you have had no point for several posts now.

You claim that laws which do not change are better than laws that are subject to change based on new evidence.

evidence of what? the fundamentals don't change.. everything else can be built on ethics already established.. I understand your laws are fickle, yesterday it was thou shalt not kill, tomorrow, it shall be kill so long as it is on a sunday between 5-7.. if that tickles your fancy, by all means.. just don't come and dictate to me what it appropriate.. I find that silly...

Do you believe the same thing about scientific laws?

that is a sweeping sentence... do you have examples to share with us or do you like dropping gas bombs?

You had claimed that Islam does not blaspheme other religions. This is not true.

because you said so and you are so knowledgeable?

Again, there are a variety of sources, and this is rather unimportant.

seems like the crux of your argument, I'd say it is very important?

Blasphemy against Muhammad is, I believe, punishable by death under Pakistan's shariah court. Apostasy is well-known to be punishable by death under shariah law. If I am not mistaken, the Quranic precedent for killing blasphemers is when Muhammad ordered the assassination of poets who mocked him.

lol... I can't point out how many flaws there are in that statement, starting with pakistani sharia law and ending with nameless poets... does pakistan have a different sharia than that already established? and here is a little something to sink your teeth into, after all that orientalist crap you enjoy peddling...

The Killing of Abu ‘Afak
and
‘Asma’ bint Marwan
by Hesham Azmy
Published in Oct., 29th, 2003














The vulgar Christian missionary, Silas, has accused Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) of killing Abu 'Afak and 'Asma' bint Marwan. In this paper, insha’Allah, we are going to refute these false charges against the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him), wa Allah-ul-Must’an.

Islamic Methodology of Reports’ Evaluation.
The Killing of Abu ‘Afak: Where is The Isnad?
The Killing of ‘Asma’: True Story? or Forgery?
Prophetic Attitude Toward Women and Old Men in War.
Conclusion.



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Islamic Methodology of Reports’ Evaluation
We must explain the methodology of Muslim scholars before we comment on any Islamic report. Take for example the news reported on presidents today! If the vice president gives a certain statement concerning the opinion of the president in a certain matter, then this statement is transmitted by a member of the secretary to a journalists who published it in the newspaper, what is the value of this report?

I answer that it could be right or wrong and we cannot be sure unless we know the reliability of the source.

If we find that the report is indeed transmitted by the secretary member on authority of the vice president and that each of them is well known for accuracy in transmission and truthfulness in speech, how can we evaluate this report?

I answer that I tend to believe it.

This is exactly what Muslim scholars require in any report to be valid and its attribution to God's Messenger (peace be upon him) can be accepted. They actually add two more things; they must make sure that the report itself is not contradictory to other more authentic reports otherwise it will be considered eccentric! Also, they must exclude any hidden flaws in the text of the report, these flaws are detailed in specialized volumes of Hadith.

Can we then accept the report as valid?

Not yet, after we verify that the chain of transmitters is intact without interruption and that all reporters are honest sane individuals, we must make sure that each reporter has received the report directly from the preceding one and that the report itself is in agreement with other authentic reports without flaws. The eminent Hafiz Ibn Kathir states,

Authentic Hadith is the Musnad hadith whose chain is continuous through transmission of an accurate sane memorizer on authority of an accurate sane memorizer till its termination without being eccentric or flawed.
(Ibn Kathir, Al-Ba'eth Al-Hathith, page 28. Published by Maktabat-us-Sunnah, Cairo, Egypt)
Is there a method more precise and meticulous than this?!
There is no nation in the entire history that took care of reporting events and their verification as Muslims did, the Western Orientalist Bernard Lewis notes,

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition. "Traditional science", as it was called, differed in many respects from modern historical source criticism, and modern scholarship has always disagreed with evaluations of traditional scientists about the authenticity and accuracy of ancient narratives. But their careful scrutiny of the chains of transmission and their meticulous collection and preservation of variants in the transmitted narratives give to medieval Arabic historiography a professionalism and sophistication without precedent in antiquity and without parallel in the contemporary medieval West. By comparison, the historiography of Latin Christendom seems poor and meagre, and even the more advanced and complex historiography of Greek Christendom still falls short of the historical literature of Islam in volume, variety and analytical depth.
(Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105)
Then, we talk about historical references written by Muslim authors. First of all, these books are not trustworthy references due to the fact that they do not follow proper methodology of transmission.
Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal sums up the Muslim point of view as regards the trustworthiness of the biographical reports when he declares that the biographies …

…. are not based on any principle.
The early Muslim scholars who compiled books of Hadith and scrutinized this particular field undertook thorough and painstaking investigations to determine the authenticity of the reports from the Holy Prophet's time by tracing them back to eye-witnesses of the time, through unbroken lines of reliable narrators. As a result, they never held a high opinion of the biographies whose authors had simply copied masses of reports without check or criticism. One such scholar of Hadith, Hafiz Zain-ud-Din of Iraq, says about the biographies,
The student should know that the biographies contain all kinds of reports, both true and false.
I believe this should make us depend only upon reliable sources authenticated by Muslim specialists in Hadith.


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The Killing of Abu ‘Afak
Where is The Isnad?
According to Ibn Sa’d and Ibn Ishaq, Abu ‘Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who abused the Prophet (peace be upon him) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salem Ibn ‘Umair to kill him. Well, we know that Ibn Ishaq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra, as well as Al-Waqidi from whom Ibn Sa’d (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu ‘Afak.

As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishaq or Al-Waqidi must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnad (i.e., chain of reporters)?

Unfortunately, references of Seera do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnad at all; neither Ibn Ishaq (or his disciple Ibn Hesham) nor Al-Waqidi (or his disciple Ibn Sa’d) provide such thing!!

In this case, the story is rated by Hadith scholars as “of no basis” indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnad. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.We are obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu ‘Afak by Salem Ibn ‘Umair at the Prophet’s command.

In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of reeports’ criticism - which strangely appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Higra.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Killing of ‘Asma’
True Story? or Forgery?
The charge is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) had ordered the killing of 'Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry, and the implications are that he (peace be upon him) "stiffles" criticism by murdering his opponents. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet (peace be upon him) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.

The story of the killing of 'Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in "Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir"[1] and by the author of "Kinz-ul-'Ummal" under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book "Al-Kamel" on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that

...this isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[2]
It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in "Al-'Ilal"[3] and is listed among other flawed reports.
So according to its isnad, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is accused of fabricating hadith. Hence, such a story is better put in trash can.



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Prophetic Attitude Toward Women and Old Men in War
I’m going to display here the *authentic* Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) regarding women and old men in war. No baseless or forged reports are allowed here; we will only display authentic reports.

Well, in brief, authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) prohibits the killing of women in war.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle.
(Sahih al-Bukhârî, Volume 3, Book 47, Number 786)
The Prophet (peace be upon him) refused to kill a woman who did intentionally try to poison him, but the Christian missionaries, using a fabricated story, wants us to believe that he ordered the killing of a woman who only abused him verbally.
Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Messenger of God (peace be upon him) saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.
(Sahih-ul-Bukhârî, Volume 4, Book 52, Numbers 257 & 258. Also see Mutta Malik, Book 21, Section 3, Number 9)
Due to this prohibition, scholars of Abu Hanifah’s School of Thought state that apostate women are not to be killed because the Prophet (peace be upon him) forbade killing women and since the prohibition is general, then it includes apostate women.[4]
Even after the Prophet's demise, his Sunnah was preserved by the Muslims ...

Abu Bakr advised Yazid: "I advise you ten things: Do not kill women or children or an aged, infirm person. Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees. Do not destroy an inhabited place. Do not slaughter sheep or camel except for food. Do not burn bees and do not scatter them. Do not steal from the booty, and do not be cowardly."
(Mutta Malik, Book 21, Section 3, Number 10)
Safi-ur-Rahman Al-Mabarakfuri sums it up in "Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtoum",
The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] had issued honourable strict rules about war and bade his soldiers and leaders to comply with them. They were forbidden to break those rules under any circumstances. In reference to Sulaiman bin Buraidah’s version, who said that his father had told him that whenever the Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] appointed a leader on an army or on a battalion, he used to recommend him to fear Allâh, the Great and All-Mighty, when dealing with those who were closest to him and to be good with all Muslims. Then the Prophet [pbuh] would say to him:
"Let your invasion be in the Name of Allâh and for His sake. Fight those who disbelieve in Allâh. Invade but do not exaggerate nor commit treachery. Never deform the corpse of a dead person or kill an infant child."
The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] asked people to facilitate but he forbade them to bear down hard on others or constrain. "Pacify", he said, "and do not disincline". [Sahih Muslim 2/82,83] When it happened that he arrived at the battlefield by night, he would never invade the enemy till it was morning. He utterly forbade burning (i.e. torturing people) in fire, killing children and women or even beating them. He also forbade theft and robbery and proceeded so far as to say gains acquired through plundering are not less forbidden than the flesh of a corpse. Corruption of tillage and race and cutting down of trees were all forbidden unless they were badly needed and there was no other substitute:
"Do not kill a wounded person nor run after a fleeing one or kill a captive."
He decreed that envoys cannot be killed. He also stressed on not killing those who made covenants. He even said:
"He whoever kills one who is under pledge to a covenant shall not smell Paradise, though its smell could be experienced at a forty-year distance from it."
There were some other noble rules which purified wars from their Al-Jahiliyah (pre-Islamic) filthiness and turned them into sacred wars. [Za'd Al-Ma'ad 2/64-68; and for details Jihad in Islam p.216-262]
I believe this should clarify any acquired misconception readers hold toward our beloved Noble Prophet (peace be upon him). And to God is the judgement in all affairs.


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Conclusion
The Western Orientalist Bernard Lewis notes,

From an early date Muslim scholars recognized the danger of false testimony and hence false doctrine, and developed an elaborate science for criticizing tradition.
(Bernard Lewis, Islam In History, 1993, Open Court Publishing, pp.104-105)
We have utilized their scientific methodology to expose the false narratives attributed to the Prophet (peace be upon him) about the alleged killing of Abu ‘Afak and ‘Asma’ bint Marwan. Examination of isnad (i.e., chain of reporters) has revealed the unreliability of both stories. Also, examination of matn (i.e., text) has revealed their inevitable contradiction with vigorously authentic traditions and established Islamic principles. 'Abdûr-Rahmân I. Doi had stated that
As far as the Matn is concerned, the following principles of criticism of the Hadith are laid down:
(1) The Hadith should not be contrary to the text or the teaching of the Qur'an or the accepted basic principles of Islam.
(2) The Hadith should not be against the dictates of reason or laws of nature and common experience.
(3) The Hadith should not be contrary to the Traditions which have already been accepted by authorities as reliable and authentic by applying all principles.
(4) The Hadith which sings the praises and excellence of any tribe, place or persons should be generally rejected
(5) The Hadith that contains the dates and minute details of the future events should be rejected.
(6) The Hadith that contains some remarks of the Prophet which are not in keeping with the Islamic belief of Prophethood and the position of the Holy Prophet or such expressions as may not be suitable to him, should be rejected.[5]
But critics may have an objection; if these stories are untrue, then why they are mentioned in Islamic references in the first place? In response, we have shown the position of learned Muslim scholars toward references of biographies whose authors used to copy masses of reports without check or criticism. These particular stories even prove their unscientific methodology because they are reported without isnad at all. This is extremely unusual of any respectable scholar. Ibn Jarir At-Tabari (224-310 A.H.) in his encyclopedic book of history “Tarik Al-Umam wa Al-Mulouk” did not give mention of these stories at all despite the fact that he mentions far less significant reports in his book.
Hence, based on the empirical evidence, we can therefore conclude that the so-called "killing" of Abu ‘Afak and ‘Asma' bint Marwan is inherently false and had never happened. This certainly throws the spanner into the works of the missionary's "only" conclusion, which is based upon nothing but hatred, paranoia and xenophobia towards the elect Apostle of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him).

And Allah knows best.



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Acknowledgement: The author of this article would like to express his gratefulness to brother MENJ of Bismika Allahuma for his assistance and encouragement till this article came to existence.

Footnotes ...

(1) Ibn Sa'd, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Volume 1, pages 27-28.
(2) Ibn 'Adiyy, Al-Kamel, Volume 6, page 145.
(3) Ibn al-Gawzi, Al-'Ilal, Volume 1, page 279.
(4) Al-Hasafky, Sharh Ad-Durr-el-Mukhtar, Volume 1, page 483.
(5) 'Abdûr-Rahmân I. Doi, Introduction to the Hadith (A.S. Nordeen, 2001), page 15.

Sure you do, if you ever hope to convince me why I should want to uphold your religion's system of laws.

I have no such hope for you.. I didn't go to an athiest forum in hopes of reforming you.. it makes no difference in my world whatsoever what you choose to subscribe or not subscribe to.

I would like to take this opportunity to comment on the tone of your response to me.

I greatly disagree with you, but at the same time I can respect that you have given thought to your position and you believe your position is morally justified. I have tried my best to show you respect in my posts.

I disagree, respect in the least comes from credible sources, and a gracious manners in which to debate not 'accuse'

Frankly, your tone throughout your posts has been insulting and condescending, filled with empty rhetoric and insinuations that I am ignorant about various subjects. In the above paragraph, you suggest that I have no morals and that I want to live life as an animal.

I find it unusual that you constantly assimialte human behavior to be like that which observed in animals and then get so upset when we confirm it? further it is really athiests who insist they came from monkeys, thus again i fail to see why it is so offensive, and pls before you start another darwin thread or digress on him here, I suggest you use the search feature so we are not constantly recycling old posts.. I really do get tired of repeating arguments that already exist...

Imagine if I took a similar tone to you. I would probably be banned.

I don't see how? you have insulted Islam plenty, God and the messenger plenty, yet didn't even get a 5% warning... double sided hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself!

I hope it's clear that I do not want people to act like animals and that actually my problems with Islam (and religion in general) are largely on moral grounds. We differ on our morals, but we both have them, and it is insulting to insinuate otherwise. I sincerely hope you at least try to show me more respect in the future.

You will get harvest only of what you sow...I found your 'humanistic' posts consistently drawing folks down the path of degeneracy under the guise of knowledge and nobility.. Frankly I am not sure where you draw your morals from... if innate, then who put it there-- the yeti? if religion,then which when there is none to hold you at bay? or you made them up as you went along?


cheers!

 

[Qingu]

There shall be no coercion in matters of faith. -- 2:256

No coercion ... but if you don't believe in Islam, you will be treated as a second class citizen. Oh, also, you'll burn forever in hell.

plus Jizya is nothing more than tax..

Which Muslims do not have to pay.

Imagine if only non-Christians had to pay taxes in America. You'd probably be just as mad as I would be.

[quote[I don't see you protesing tax now do you?[/quote]
I don't protest fair taxes. Though actually I think rich people should be taxed more than they are now.

a Non-Muslim doesn't have nor needs to join the army under an Islamic state,

Did Muslims have to join the army? I was under the impression that the army was voluntary for most of Islam's history. Could be wrong, though.

In any case, this is hardly an argument for dhimmi's being treated fairly. The fact of the matter is that if you were treated as a dhimmi in America or Europe or wherever you're from, you'd be incensed.

there will come a time when Jizya will be abolished however, Book 37, Number 4310 states that Jesus will come again, and at that time will (among other things) abolish jizya, as Allah will "perish all religions except Islam".[19] Sunan Abu-Dawud

That's good to know. So if Muslims ever establish a caliphate and treat me like a dhimmi, I only have to wait until the world blows up to stop paying unfair taxes....

This is the first I have heard of it.. If it were the case, why was Maimondes when expelled from Spain and taken into Muslim lands allowed to write a book mocking the sons of Ishmael unharmed?

I'm only a little familiar with Maimonedes. I understand he was treated much better by Muslims than by Christians, though I am not sure what exactly he wrote about the sons of Ishmael and whether this actually constitutes blasphemy. I am also not sure to what extent the north African Muslims (that is where he went, right?) practiced strict Shariah law.

what is the difference between someone who hates America and someone actively working in espionage? carry that analogy over.. if you simply want to disbelief, it is your prerogative, Many apostates existed around the time of Prophet Mohammed PBUH unharmed...

I'm not really sure what your point is? Many Muslim scholars define apostate as someone who stops believing in Islam and agree that this is indeed punishable by death per Shariah law. So I don't really know what to say ... I guess I'm glad that you differ with these ulema and define an apostate to be someone who is actively working against Islamic interest via espionage?

my question was rhetorical.. every act of sexual deviance will differ from another.. we can all agree orange is different from green, but can both be classifed under colors!

Not really. We don't agree what constitutes "sexual deviance." I certainly don't agree that homosexuality is deviant as the desire seems to be quite common and quite harmless.

No.. you were talking about where such behavior was observed in animals and indeed in such a condtion people will engage in UNINHIBITED sexual behavior even with members of the same sex.. I think I should be clear on what I post..

So you're saying that animal homosexuality is opportunistic hypersexuality? Can you explain why same-sex penguins mate for life, monogomously?

we are not animals..

What? Of course we are. We're certainly not plants, fungi, protists, bacteria, or archaea.

if you wish to be assimilated to an animal, it is your prerogative, not mine!

What a silly thing to say! I don't wish to be assimilated into another species any more than a chimpanzee wishes to be assimilated into a spider. Why on earth would I want to?

I have made a choice indeed..just like I make a choice not to be with animals or dead people.. love is a different matter than Lust.. perhaps you confuse the two?

I think you are the one who is confused here: are you seriously saying you made a choice to have heterosexual desire? You chose to be attracted to men, rather than women and dead people?

At what point in your life did you make this choice? Was it a difficult decision?

For my part, I have always been attracted to women since I can remember having sexual attraction in the first place. It's not a preference I "chose" to have anymore than my preference of chocolate ice cream over vanilla ice cream is something I "chose" to have.

pls don't quote me third party info.. I can't make it anymore clear.. until I see it in JAMA, Lancet/ NEJM, or uptodate, it is a choice...

What a bald-faced reversal of the burden of proof! Perhaps you'd care to find an article from one of these journals (though uptodate is not a journal) that claims it is a choice?

Furthermore, these are medical journals, not biological or general science journals, which is where you'd expect to find discussion about homosexuality's genetic components. Why on earth would you demand to see an article in one of these journals? And why on earth would you want to see them in Lancet (which appears to be unaffiliated with any medical or scientific organization) or the New England Journal of Medicine (why this specific one?)

In any case, here is an article from Science, published by the AAAS:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/285/5429/803a

"Sexual orientation is a complex trait that is probably shaped by many different factors, including multiple genes, biological, environmental, and sociocultural influences."​

Here is a list of articles in Science that discuss the genetic components of homosexuality (unfortunately you need a subscription to access them, but you can see they're there)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/searc...submit.x=0&search_submit.y=0&search_submit=go

This article, from JAMA, argues that a genetic component of homosexuality is not necessary to explain the behavior, though it certainly does not claim that an individual "chooses" to be homosexual:

"In an alternative model, temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieu as the individual's sexuality emerges."
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/co...ne&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&resourcetype=HWCIT​

Now, I realize we're getting pretty far afield from the topic, but you have repeatedly claimed that homosexuality is a "choice," and at the same time you have repeatedly demanded that I support my claims with scientific journal articles. I think it would be the height of hypocrisy if you don't even attempt to support your claim in a similar fashion.

they use aversion therapy on pederast priests with some success, I'd recommend the same for homosexuals!

That's wonderful, but the American Psychological Association and the American Medical Association would recommend the opposite.
http://www.psych.org/pnews/99-01-15/therapy.html
http://clgs.org/5/5_6_3.html

Perhaps you'd care to support your assertion that such therapy is effective with evidence from a scientific journal?

I don't know what that means.. many of my colleagues believe it an act of sexual deviance, many have more than just an MD, but MD/PhD, many have spent their life time dedicated to scientific research..

Many of colleagues also have MDs and PhDs and have dedicated their lives to scientific research, and not one of them believes it is an act of scientific deviance.

Of course, the difference between my colleagues and your colleagues is that my colleagues have the support of nearly the entire scientific community. So if you want to play the "appeal to authority" game, at least try to make sure you're authority is authoritative!

we have already discussed slavery a few posts ago, I believe you were given a great deal of resources to read, I can only conclude you've read none?... it doesn't concern me how your mind chooses to register or I should say selectively read what it wants and ignores that which doesn't agree with it.. further will add the middle east (Arabic) countries constitute only 18% of the Muslim world so what do you want me to do with that gem you've dropped?

You were criticizing America's history of racism and slavery, as compared to Islam's supposedly pristine history on this subjects. Just pointing out that your history is no more pristine than America's. Of course, the difference is that I am willing to admit I am ashamed of my country's history.

evidence of what? the fundamentals don't change.. everything else can be built on ethics already established.. I understand your laws are fickle, yesterday it was thou shalt not kill, tomorrow, it shall be kill so long as it is on a sunday between 5-7.. if that tickles your fancy, by all means.. just don't come and dictate to me what it appropriate.. I find that silly...

I find it silly that you find a strawman you've invented out of thin air silly.

In any case, what, praytell, are these "fundamentals" of law that never change? Because I have a feeling that different cultures have been disagreeing on this point since laws were written down.

that is a sweeping sentence... do you have examples to share with us or do you like dropping gas bombs?

For example, the change from a geocentric cosmology to a heliocentric cosmology, based on new evidence. Or the change from phlogisten to oxygen as an explanation for combustion. Or the change from classical mechanics to Einsteinian relativity. Do you believe modern science is worse than ancient cosmology because it is capable of making changes such as this? Or would you rather have a system of ideology that stays the same forever? That seems to be what you're arguing about laws (that a system that never changes is better than one that does)

because you said so and you are so knowledgeable?

Not because I said so, because Christians and Hindus say so. According to them, your religion blasphemes their gods. Are you seriously disputing this?

seems like the crux of your argument, I'd say it is very important?
How on earth is "there are 1.4 billion Muslims, not 1.8" the crux of my argument? It has literally nothing to do with any argument I've put forth, you are being ridiculous.

does pakistan have a different sharia than that already established?

I was unaware that shariah was ever uniform.

and here is a little something to sink your teeth into, after all that orientalist crap you enjoy peddling...

What exactly was the point of what you posted in relation to anything I've said? That the Muslims didn't want to kill the blasphemous Christian missionary, therefore, blasphemy is not punishable under shariah law?

I disagree, respect in the least comes from credible sources, and a gracious manners in which to debate not 'accuse'

And yet you haven't posted a single scientific source in support of any of your claims and you routinely accuse me of being ignorant, uninformed, orientalist, desiring to become like an animal ...

I find it unusual that you constantly assimialte human behavior to be like that which observed in animals and then get so upset when we confirm it?

1. Much of our behavior is similar to that of other primates and mammals.
2. I don't get upset when people "confirm" this, I get upset when religious people assume that because I believe humans are similar to other primates it means I think it's morally justified for someone to act like another primate. That's either silly or dishonest.

further it is really athiests who insist they came from monkeys, thus again i fail to see why it is so offensive,

Who is insisting we came from monkeys? We evolved from apelike ancestors, monkeys are a separate branch.

In any case, it's not so much offensive as it is tiring and annoying to hear this over and over again from religious people. "You think we came from monkeys therefore you think it's okay to act like monkeys." You are obviously intelligent enough to see how the B does not follow from the A, so why do you say things like this? Do you see any evolutionists or atheists who actually claim it's okay to form war parties and commit genocide on rival groups of humans, as chimps do against rival groups of chimps? Have you ever seen anyone claim that the theory of evolution is a basis for morality, anymore than the theory of thermodynamics is? It's absurd, and it makes you look silly when you say things like this.

I don't see how? you have insulted Islam plenty, God and the messenger plenty, yet didn't even get a 5% warning... double sided hypocrisy doesn't nullify itself!

When did I insult Islam, God, or the messenger on here?

Frankly I am not sure where you draw your morals from... if innate, then who put it there-- the yeti? if religion,then which when there is none to hold you at bay? or you made them up as you went along?

Would you like to discuss where I draw my morals from? I would love to, but this thread is already pretty bloated with off-topic discussion. Perhaps you could start another thread?

 

[جوري]

No coercion ... but if you don't believe in Islam, you will be treated as a second class citizen. Oh, also, you'll burn forever in hell.

you have lived in an Islamic society and know that for a fact, or are you inventing as you go along? If you don't believe in heaven or hell or God, I don't see why, what Muslim believe would be of concern to you?

Which Muslims do not have to pay.

Muslims have to sacrifice their lives, I'd rather take the jizya than being drafted into an army.
addendum
Muslims pay obligatory zakat, which non Muslims don't pay!

Imagine if only non-Christians had to pay taxes in America. You'd probably be just as mad as I would be.

No, I wouldn't.. in fact it already happens, I pay a rather large chunk of my salary, to people who live on well fare, leach of my tax money, go sell drugs on the streets and then come give me grief in my practice..
I rather think it is the other way around.. if you feel mad about an imaginary society that doesn't exist today, I suggest you seek counseling for that..

I don't protest fair taxes. Though actually I think rich people should be taxed more than they are now.

I have seen that analogy used alot, it is as if you begrudge others the fruits of their hard work.. someone who goes to college then grad school, then works on a fellowship, then for a good 5-10yrs to pay off their debt, while others begrudge them, not only their education, but their money.. I don't see how you can equate someone who works hard to someone who slacks off all day!

Did Muslims have to join the army? I was under the impression that the army was voluntary for most of Islam's history. Could be wrong, though.

If the Muslim empire were at war then it is incumbent upon all (muslims) to join in its defense.. all except those who pay jizya!

In any case, this is hardly an argument for dhimmi's being treated fairly. The fact of the matter is that if you were treated as a dhimmi in America or Europe or wherever you're from, you'd be incensed.

lol.. are you kidding me? go tell that to the folks at Guantanamo who are being held without trial, the Muslims who have to go register themselves with the Govt. the folks in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, chechnya, Bosnia, and then come speak to me about how well the Muslims are being treated by your cohorts..

That's good to know. So if Muslims ever establish a caliphate and treat me like a dhimmi, I only have to wait until the world blows up to stop paying unfair taxes....

There are medications to treat irrational unfounded fears, that is all I intend to say on this subject matter... you only make a fool of yourself and repeatedly with each post!

I'm only a little familiar with Maimonedes. I understand he was treated much better by Muslims than by Christians, though I am not sure what exactly he wrote about the sons of Ishmael and whether this actually constitutes blasphemy. I am also not sure to what extent the north African Muslims (that is where he went, right?) practiced strict Shariah law.

Then familiarize yourself with Maimondes, and generally read up about the subject before engaging in it or bringing accusations on how well or how poor even the most arch enemies of Islam were allowed to get away with before you bring your argument forth to the table..

How would you like to classify a Muslim empire? by today's standards? by Daniel Pipes standards? or by yours? That was sharia law being practiced.. there is only one established form as far as I am concerned and we are not practicing it today in any part of the Muslim world!

I'm not really sure what your point is? Many Muslim scholars define apostate as someone who stops believing in Islam and agree that this is indeed punishable by death per Shariah law. So I don't really know what to say ... I guess I'm glad that you differ with these ulema and define an apostate to be someone who is actively working against Islamic interest via espionage?

My point is and for the last time.. you DON'T HAVE ANY UNDERSTANDING OF OUR ULEMA the mazhaib the shura, SHARIA LAW OR WHEN AN APOSTATE IF LEFT BE OR PUNISHED.. USE THE SEARCH FEATURE SO WE ARE NOT constantly GOING AROUND IN CIRCLES WITH EVERY POST.. PLS DO TRY IT, YOU MIGHT SAVE US BOTH SOME PRECIOUS TIME!

Not really. We don't agree what constitutes "sexual deviance." I certainly don't agree that homosexuality is deviant as the desire seems to be quite common and quite harmless.

I don't know who the 'we' is.. your definitions and/or conclusions are not following logically as a consequence to even established medical terms. It is neither common nor harmless (harm doesn't have to be very overt and threatening) I don't need to go stab your mother to hurt your spirit I can simply defame her incessantly and make life unbearable, and no this isn't the only analogy, it is a mere one.. tons of ways to be hurtful, further homosexuality isn't even sensical to those who believe so adamantly in 'natural selection'.. what use does homosexuality have for our universe?

So you're saying that animal homosexuality is opportunistic hypersexuality? Can you explain why same-sex penguins mate for life, monogomously?

I am talking of human homosexuality.. I have no interest in zoology nor is it a point of interest for the purpose of our discussion. Try to have some direction in your debates and define a purpose so you are not digressing all over the place!

What? Of course we are. We're certainly not plants, fungi, protists, bacteria, or archaea.

????????????????????????

What a silly thing to say! I don't wish to be assimilated into another species any more than a chimpanzee wishes to be assimilated into a spider. Why on earth would I want to?

That is evolution for you.. glad you think so, I shall be quoting this in the future when opportunity presents itself .. cheers!

I think you are the one who is confused here: are you seriously saying you made a choice to have heterosexual desire? You chose to be attracted to men, rather than women and dead people?

I choose not to engage in deviant sexual behavior.. again look up the definitions and differences between 'love' and 'lust' and it might register this time around?

At what point in your life did you make this choice? Was it a difficult decision?

That is none of your business!

For my part, I have always been attracted to women since I can remember having sexual attraction in the first place. It's not a preference I "chose" to have anymore than my preference of chocolate ice cream over vanilla ice cream is something I "chose" to have.

Stop confabulating!

Furthermore, these are medical journals, not biological or general science journals, which is where you'd expect to find discussion about homosexuality's genetic components. Why on earth would you demand to see an article in one of these journals? And why on earth would you want to see them in Lancet (which appears to be unaffiliated with any medical or scientific organization) or the New England Journal of Medicine (why this specific one?)

Simple-- medicine is the mother of all those subjects, of which genetics and molecular biology are a major component and a 1/3 of the licensing exam before being granted certification. Lancet is a British medical Journal, JAMA, and NEJM produce topics of current trends in medicine which encompasses all its field and more importantly than all else, it isn't third party information disseminated to lay men on google to foster their mass hysteria!

In any case, here is an article from Science, published by the AAAS:
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/285/5429/803a

"Sexual orientation is a complex trait that is probably shaped by many different factors, including multiple genes, biological, environmental, and sociocultural influences."​

Again, until we find the 'homo gene' the 'pedo' gene the 'thana' gene etc etc, it is a choice.. yes sociocultural, and environemntal seems appropriate, I'll accept that (if you didn't simply put them there as filler)!

Here is a list of articles in Science that discuss the genetic components of homosexuality (unfortunately you need a subscription to access them, but you can see they're there)
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/searc...submit.x=0&search_submit.y=0&search_submit=go

Read above as I don't like to repeat myself.. until I see it from the medical community in a reputable journal not a newspaper magazine whether called science magazine or computer world, Don't waste my time with it. I do have better things to do on satuday than sit here and argue petitio principii....

This article, from JAMA, argues that a genetic component of homosexuality is not necessary to explain the behavior, though it certainly does not claim that an individual "chooses" to be homosexual:

There was only one study done about the 'genetic' component of homosexuality and it was inconclusive.. so one is left with so few alternatives for such deviance.. draw your own conclusion and don't impose it on me!

Now, I realize we're getting pretty far afield from the topic, but you have repeatedly claimed that homosexuality is a "choice," and at the same time you have repeatedly demanded that I support my claims with scientific journal articles. I think it would be the height of hypocrisy if you don't even attempt to support your claim in a similar fashion.

WHEN YOU HAVE ELIMINATED THE IMPOSSIBLE, WHATEVER REMAINS, HOWEVER IMPROBABLE, MUST BE THE TRUTH?” Arthur L. Cunningham
other than that, and this coming from someone who not a few posts ago told us, that he doesn't enjoy google cut and pastes over free thought.. but in case you really want to, you may do a google search and see what comes up.. I am sure opinions are varied... in which case I say, I am not interested in opinion, rather solid facts.. until I see gene number 758 on the q arms of the 15th chromosome to be the homosexual gene, there is only one conclusion left here!

Title: Aversion Therapy
Author(s): Council on Scientific Affairs
Affiliation: The American Medical Association
Citation: Council on Scientific Affairs of the American Medical Association, “Aversion therapy,” Journal of the American Medical Association, vol. 258, no. 18 (November 13), 1987, pp. 2562-2565.

Summary The purpose of aversion therapy is to reduce unwanted or dangerous behavior by pairing it with unpleasant sensations or punishment. It is based on principles of learning theory and behavior modification. Although extensive physiological and animal research has been done to refine its use, its use remains controversial on ethical grounds. Aversion therapy has been the focus of debate for many years among educators, mental health practitioners, and medical professionals.

Aversion therapy has been used to shift sexual orientation away from homosexuality towards heterosexuality. In 1935, Max first reported using electric shock for this purpose. After four months, he claimed the procedure was successful “95% of the way.” Freund used caffeine and apomorphine to induce nausea in his treatment of 67 homosexual men. A five-year follow-up study showed effectiveness was poor to mediocre.

In 1963, Thorpe required a patient to stand barefoot on an electrical grid which produced controlled electric shocks. He reported successful treatment after 4000 sessions. His attempt to replicate this failed when a second patient discontinued treatment after two days. In another study, Thorpe reported success using electric shock on three men, but his work was challenged by Feldman for methodological problems, subject selection, and lack of follow-up.

Other researchers have used covert sensitization to attempt conversion from homosexuality to heterosexuality. One review of the literature expressed cautious optimism about this approach, stressing the need for more controlled studies.

Maletzky & George advocate the use of covert sensitization assisted by the use of valeric acid, a noxious smelling substance. Although they report excellent results, further research is needed. One researcher found disagreement between self-reports of sexual arousal and penile measurements, calling into question the validity of these studies.

Investigations of the effectiveness of aversion therapy with other behaviors such as pedophilia, exhibitionism, and transvestitism have paralleled those for homosexuality. Most studies have used apomophine-induced nausea or amphetamine-induced sleep deprivation. One early treatment using emetine was discontinued when the patient developed toxic myocarditis as a result. Other researchers have used electric shock, preferring it to nausea-inducing methods as less unpleasant, more easily controlled, and having fewer side effects.

Covert sensitization has also been used for pedophilia. Results of electric shock and covert sensitization have been similar to those of nausea-inducing methods.

In general, very few controlled studies with multiple patients have been conducted. While a literature review suggests that covert sensitization seems useful in treating deviance, the literature contains mostly uncontrolled studies so that firm conclusions cannot be drawn.

Note: Two months after this statement was published, a letter from Stanley E. Harris, MD, University of Southern California, Los Angeles, was printed in the journal (vol. 258, no. 18—November 13, 1987, pp. 2562-2565). Harris wrote that treatment for homosexuals should aim to relieve distress not increase it with electric shock, nausea, or noxious odors. He noted that the Council’s statement made no mention of iatrogenically induced despair, depression, and sexual dysfunction many patients suffer when aversion therapy fails to work. He wrote that patients often need therapy to recover from the stress resulting from the aversion therapy.

Medical therapies
Anti-androgenic medications such as Depo Provera may be used to lower testosterone levels, and are often used in conjunction with the non-medical approaches above. (This is commonly referred to as "chemical castration.") Gonadotropin-releasing hormone analogues, which last longer and have less side effects, are also effective in reducing libido and may be used.

Other programs induce an association of illegal behavior with pain by means of the more controversial aversion therapy, in which the pedophile is given an electric shock while fantasizing. A study by the Council on Scientific Affairs found that the success rate of aversion therapy was parallel to that of homosexual reparative therapy. This method is rarely used on pedophiles who have not offended.

You were criticizing America's history of racism and slavery, as compared to Islam's supposedly pristine history on this subjects. Just pointing out that your history is no more pristine than America's. Of course, the difference is that I am willing to admit I am ashamed of my country's history.

I am not ashamed of mine.. Much to be proud of! in the words of one wise scholar

Must everyone in the world conceive these things the way the Senator and his likes conceive them? If so then the problem is not confined to what is called ******sm. It is bound to include other Muslims, as well as all people who belong to other cultures; it is in fact bound to include many in the West since there is no consensus among them on the way these things are to be conceived. If your tolerance applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance, which is by definition readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values. Thus in Islam a distinction is made between beliefs and believers. As far as beliefs are concerned there is absolutely no compromise: any belief that contradicts Islam is false, and must be criticized. But those who adhere to such false beliefs are to be tolerated, nicely treated and invited to the truth in the best of ways. It is because of this that Jews and Christians found their safest haven in the Muslim world long before the West started to talk about human rights and freedom of religion. “Jews familiar with history might note that from Spain to Baghdad, it was the Islamic world that offered the Jews of the Middle Ages a fair degree of toleration -- not the Christian West’, so tells us Richard Cohen in an article in the Post.; non-Muslims continue to live peacefully among Muslims. Islamic teachings, corroborated by our historical experience, teach us that the best atmosphere for the spread of Islam is the peaceful atmosphere.

I find it silly that you find a strawman you've invented out of thin air silly.

???????

In any case, what, praytell, are these "fundamentals" of law that never change? Because I have a feeling that different cultures have been disagreeing on this point since laws were written down.

What are you talking about? If you have something of substance to impart and not a mere tango, then please bring it forth, I am not your muse, nor am I able to read mind.. I can't debate an imaginary event in your head!

For example, the change from a geocentric cosmology to a heliocentric cosmology, based on new evidence. Or the change from phlogisten to oxygen as an explanation for combustion. Or the change from classical mechanics to Einsteinian relativity. Do you believe modern science is worse than ancient cosmology because it is capable of making changes such as this? Or would you rather have a system of ideology that stays the same forever? That seems to be what you're arguing about laws (that a system that never changes is better than one that does)

What does jurisprudence, how to run the state and its affairs have to do with technological advancement? seems to me and any learned historian that it was indeed the Muslim world that was advanced in Europe's darkest of ages.. unless again you have a different sort of history than that recorded?
http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=309

I recommend reading.. it is a sure cure for ignorance!

Not because I said so, because Christians and Hindus say so. According to them, your religion blasphemes their gods. Are you seriously disputing this?

You are all over the place, why don't you focus so we can understand what you are driving at?

I was unaware that shariah was ever uniform.

I know, you seem to be unaware of many things! it is prudent to read before you bring an argument forth, not vice versa, unless this is your quick fix to books?

And yet you haven't posted a single scientific source in support of any of your claims and you routinely accuse me of being ignorant, uninformed, orientalist, desiring to become like an animal ...

what do you want? first with utmost insolence you ask us to quote you the Quran (pls) which you deem you have read and familiar with, though it 'holds no interest to you', yet its basic tenets are lost to you, and you aren't able to discuss it with any form of dextrity, so you either peddle in ready whip arguments which have all been refuted here as if you are going to shock us with revelation, quite sadly none which is your own. what scientific source do you want, when you can't even dignify bringing an argument against islam from a reputable source not from orientalists or missionaries.. Do tell me you want a scientific source for what? what would you like to discuss? blasphemy in science? hindus in science? christianity and science? fictional murderers of poetesses in science? jurisprudence in science?

1. Much of our behavior is similar to that of other primates and mammals.

what behavior is that? sex with same members?

2. I don't get upset when people "confirm" this, I get upset when religious people assume that because I believe humans are similar to other primates it means I think it's morally justified for someone to act like another primate. That's either silly or dishonest.

I think it is logical, and aesthetically consistent relation of what you bring forth!

Who is insisting we came from monkeys? We evolved from apelike ancestors, monkeys are a separate branch.

forgive me ape-like it is!

In any case, it's not so much offensive as it is tiring and annoying to hear this over and over again from religious people. "You think we came from monkeys therefore you think it's okay to act like monkeys." You are obviously intelligent enough to see how the B does not follow from the A, so why do you say things like this? Do you see any evolutionists or atheists who actually claim it's okay to form war parties and commit genocide on rival groups of humans, as chimps do against rival groups of chimps? Have you ever seen anyone claim that the theory of evolution is a basis for morality, anymore than the theory of thermodynamics is? It's absurd, and it makes you look silly when you say things like this.

Silly to you.. and yes I have seen war started on the hands of many athiests, I have already covered that previousely... most ruthless in fact if w tote up the count of the dead.. I'd say athiests have no regard to life whatsoever!

When did I insult Islam, God, or the messenger on here?

Go browse back through your posts, if you are still having difficulty picking it out, then I'd reflect a little on what is so abnormal accusing the messenger (P) of ordering the murder of a woman who wrote a poem amongst other BS!

Would you like to discuss where I draw my morals from? I would love to, but this thread is already pretty bloated with off-topic discussion. Perhaps you could start another thread?

I am not interested in where you get your morals from.. I already know!

Believe you me, the day an atheists shakes my world with something ground breaking, will probably be the mark of WWIII.. I have already seen and heard it all.. you subscribe to the same herd mentality, that many of you so enjoy accuse theists of.. You only believe that you have broken the mold like a lone trailblazer.. you and the 7-10% of the atheists like yourself, pretty much peddle the same, uniform homogenous replies.. this goes back and forth.. I suppose there is no breaking the human condition no matter how hard one tries?...



cheers!

 

[aasia]

For those who don't know that Islam gave Non-muslims the right to practice their religion, I would like you to read the Quran. This issue could be settled by just quoting one chapter and I will do so:
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be worshippers of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Chapter 109
I hope this clears the misunderstanding.:sunny:

 

[wilberhum]

For those who don't know that Islam gave Non-muslims the right to practice their religion, I would like you to read the Quran. This issue could be settled by just quoting one chapter and I will do so:
Say, "O disbelievers,
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor are you worshippers of what I worship.
Nor will I be worshippers of what you worship.
Nor will you be worshippers of what I worship.
For you is your religion, and for me is my religion."
Chapter 109
I hope this clears the misunderstanding.:sunny:

It seems you assume all Muslims do exactly what the Quran says.
As a “Deferent Dhimmi” I would chose a democracy where I wouldn’t have to pay to “Not Belong” to your religion.

 

[islamirama]

It seems you assume all Muslims do exactly what the Quran says.
As a “Deferent Dhimmi” I would chose a democracy where I wouldn’t have to pay to “Not Belong” to your religion.

Doesn't matter what all Muslims say or do. You are living under Islamic state and they will protect your rights. Just as doesn't matter what many bigots in US say, the US constitution protects my rights (sort of).

 

[wilberhum]

Doesn't matter what all Muslims say or do. You are living under Islamic state and they will protect your rights. Just as doesn't matter what many bigots in US say, the US constitution protects my rights (sort of).

Yes I know. My second class rights and inferior status will be protected.:-\

 

[islamirama]

Yes I know. My second class rights and inferior status will be protected.:-\

like mine are?

people will see what they want to see...

 

[Qingu]

Hello Purest,

This is the third time I've tried posting—the past two times this site has froze my computer. So I'm going to be rather succinct.

Muslims have to sacrifice their lives, I'd rather take the jizya than being drafted into an army.
...
If the Muslim empire were at war then it is incumbent upon all (muslims) to join in its defense.. all except those who pay jizya!

Really? All Muslims are drafted in times of war?

All Muslim women too? Right...

addendum
Muslims pay obligatory zakat, which non Muslims don't pay!
.....
No, I wouldn't.. in fact it already happens, I pay a rather large chunk of my salary, to people who live on well fare, leach of my tax money, go sell drugs on the streets and then come give me grief in my practice..

This is priceless. I asked you how you'd feel about paying a non-Christian-only jizya tax in America. And you respond by complaining about paying welfare!

You know, welfare ... like the zakat!

Can I get an honest response, please? How would you feel if you had to pay a non-Christian-only tax in America?

lol.. are you kidding me? go tell that to the folks at Guantanamo who are being held without trial, the Muslims who have to go register themselves with the Govt. the folks in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, chechnya, Bosnia, and then come speak to me about how well the Muslims are being treated by your cohorts..

Again, this is priceless.

So are you saying here that you are opposed to a society treating a group of its people as second-class citizens with unequal legal rights based solely on their religion?

Or are you saying it's okay that the Muslims deprive dhimmis of legal rights because America also deprives Muslims of legal rights?

And by the way: you speak as if I support this administration's policies. Let me make it abundantly clear now: I don't.

Then familiarize yourself with Maimondes,

I am certainly willing to accept that Maimonedes was treated better by the Muslims than he would have been by the Christians. Of course, medieval Christians were murderous, fanatical barbarians, so I'm not really sure if that's something to brag about.

You claimed the Muslims tolerated Maimonedes, even though he said something potentially blasphemous about the Ishmaelites. So what did he say? You're the one who brought it up, why not simply answer the question?

How would you like to classify a Muslim empire? by today's standards? by Daniel Pipes standards? or by yours? That was sharia law being practiced.. there is only one established form as far as I am concerned and we are not practicing it today in any part of the Muslim world!

I haven't read Daniel Pipes, and your question is rather difficult to answer. I would venture to class a Muslim empire as being ruled under a central caliphate—but then through much of Islamic history there have been competing caliphates and rival sects.

In any case, I fail to see why Iran's and Saudi Arabia's legal systems are not "shariah law." Can you give an example of a period and location in Muslim history that was shariah law, with examples of how it differed substantially from Saudi Arabia's legal system today?

Or are you saying shariah law is only possible in a Muslim empire/caliphate? That seems a bit silly, but whatever floats your boat, as the argument then becomes semantics.

I don't know who the 'we' is.. your definitions and/or conclusions are not following logically as a consequence to even established medical terms.

By "we" I meant "me and you." We disagree on what constitutes "sexual deviance." I thought that was rather plain.

It is neither common nor harmless (harm doesn't have to be very overt and threatening) I don't need to go stab your mother to hurt your spirit I can simply defame her incessantly and make life unbearable, and no this isn't the only analogy, it is a mere one..

You're comparing homosexuality to defamation?

I'm glad that isn't your only analogy, because it's a pretty terrible one. Do you have any more? Because I'm failing to see what harm homosexuality causes.

I can understand unprotected or casual sex causing harm. But I can't think of a single way homosexuality itself is harmful.

further homosexuality isn't even sensical to those who believe so adamantly in 'natural selection'.. what use does homosexuality have for our universe?

This is funny, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand the theory of evolution and sees fit to make comments on it—but who simultaneously derides me for making comments on subjects I (supposedly) don't understand, like shariah law ....

...but unlike you, I'll be a gentleman and explain. Natural selection is not a magic wand, and things do not evolve to "have a use for our universe." For example, humans have appendixes, which are all but useless. The genetic component of homosexuality—if there is one—may well be tied to other phenotypes that are selected for. Genes often do not work alone. There are also a large number of reasons why a genotype including traits that do not directly contribute to the propogation of the species would be selected for, especially in successful species where there is "wiggle room."

Secondly, it is not clear to what extent homosexuality is determined by genetics or environment. Sociopathy, for example, seems to be environmentally-determined and is counteractive to the species' survival.

I am talking of human homosexuality..I have no interest in zoology nor is it a point of interest for the purpose of our discussion.

You sought to explain animal homosexuality as instances of opportunistic hypersexuality. Just pointing out that you were incorrect.

Qingu (responding to your claim that "humans aren't animals"): What? Of course we are. We're certainly not plants, fungi, protists, bacteria, or archaea.

You: ????????????????????????

I hope your confusion stems from some formatting issue and not a fundamental ignorance of biological taxonomy.

I choose not to engage in deviant sexual behavior..

Not what I asked.

I asked "when did you choose to be a heterosexual, as opposed to a homosexual or a necrosexual?"

You said "homosexuality is a choice." Homosexuality is not a behavior, it is a desire. There are homosexuals who never engage in homosexual sex. If homosexuality is a choice then when did you choose to desire men instead of women?

Of course, I'm being rhetorical here, because your assertion is plain nonsense. Nobody chooses to desire one thing over another.

Simple-- medicine is the mother of all those subjects, of which genetics and molecular biology are a major component and a 1/3 of the licensing exam before being granted certification.

What in the world are you talking about?

I don't know how many scientific journals you read, but I have to read a number of them every week for my job. Your statement is without merit.

Again, until we find the 'homo gene' the 'pedo' gene the 'thana' gene etc etc, it is a choice..
...
until I see gene number 758 on the q arms of the 15th chromosome to be the homosexual gene, there is only one conclusion left here!

What utter nonsense, either from ignorance of dishonesty. Again, you clearly have no idea how genetics works, and yet you're talking about it with authority ... but I'll try to explain it to you.

First of all, as I said above, single genes do not usually correspond to single phenotypes, let alone complex behaviors. For example, something as simple as eye color is regulated by several genes.

Secondly, I like kittens better than puppies and chocolate better than vanilla, but we haven't found the "puppy/kitten gene" or the "vanilla/chocolate gene" ... therefore I must have chosen to like one more than the other?

yes sociocultural, and environemntal seems appropriate, I'll accept that (if you didn't simply put them there as filler)!

Great. Neither of these things implies choice.

Read above as I don't like to repeat myself.. until I see it from the medical community in a reputable journal not a newspaper magazine whether called science magazine

Science is published by the most premier association of scientists in America ... you are again displaying your ignorance, which wouldn't really bother me so much if you didn't puff yourself up so much. For your own sake, I seriously urge you to quit while you're ahead.

Now, you go on to post something about aversion therapy as "evidence" that homosexuality is a "choice."

Not only is aversion therapy widely doubted to be effective by the scientific community, you are also ignoring the rather obvious point that behavioral conditioning does not imply choice.

What are you talking about? If you have something of substance to impart and not a mere tango, then please bring it forth, I am not your muse, nor am I able to read mind.. I can't debate an imaginary event in your head!

You could have gone back and read what you posted before. You claimed there were certain fundamental laws that never changed.

I asked you what they were.

What does jurisprudence, how to run the state and its affairs have to do with technological advancement?

You said unchanging laws were better than so-called man-made laws because man-made laws are constantly changing. I got the impression that you did not like change.

So are you okay with changing views of reality, but not with changing moral laws? That seems inconsistent, since moral laws ought to be a reflection of our knowledge of reality. Don't you think?

and any learned historian that it was indeed the Muslim world that was advanced in Europe's darkest of ages..

Why on earth do you continue to compare Islam with the medieval Christians, as if I'm supposed to be impressed that Islamic society was better than Christendom?

Here's a question: what has Islam contributed to scientific knowledge in the past 400 or so years? Ideally I'd get an answer instead of a .jpeg of a bunch of textbooks....

what do you want? first with utmost insolence you ask us to quote you the Quran (pls)

What on earth is insolent about this?

which you deem you have read and familiar with, though it 'holds no interest to you', yet its basic tenets are lost to you, and you aren't able to discuss it with any form of dextrity, so you either peddle in ready whip arguments which have all been refuted here as if you are going to shock us with revelation, quite sadly none which is your own.

Can you support any of these accusations against me? I make all of my own arguments on here, and my intention is not to shock anyone—only to refute nonsense when I see it.

what scientific source do you want, when you can't even dignify bringing an argument against islam from a reputable source not from orientalists or missionaries..

I'm making "arguments against Islam" now? I wasn't aware that your points in your posts were identifiable with all of Islam.

You were the one who demanded sources from scientific journals, and when I provided them and called you about your shoddy methodology, this is how you respond?

Silly to you.. and yes I have seen war started on the hands of many athiests, I have already covered that previousely...

Yes, many wars were started by people who did not happen to believe in gods.

Even more wars were started by people who didn't happen to believe in unicorns. Since you brought this up again, I'll ask again: what on earth is your point? Are you saying that lack of belief in unicorns makes people ruthless warmongerers?

Go browse back through your posts, if you are still having difficulty picking it out, then I'd reflect a little on what is so abnormal accusing the messenger (P) of ordering the murder of a woman who wrote a poem amongst other BS!

Muhammad did not order the assassination of Asma bint Marwan and Kab bin al-Ashraf?

I am not trying to insult Islam by saying this. I have talked to other Muslims about this on another forum and they readily admit he ordered their deaths. I'm actually curious to hear how you interpret these stories.

I am not interested in where you get your morals from.. I already know!

Is that so? Does his name begin with an S?

I have already seen and heard it all..

Please. You have demonstrably not seen and heard it all, and from my short interaction with you it's rather clear you have much to learn about, for starters, genetics and evolution. I readily admit I have much to learn, not just about Islam but about everything. I would hope you're humble enough to do the same, and with a more open mind than that which you've displayed.

 

[Qingu]

Purest: upon re-reading my post, I realize I may have come off a little harsher than I meant to.

In particular, a lot of people, when they hear the word "ignorant," they think "stupid," which isn't actually the definition of the word. I just want to stress that when I say you're ignorant about something, I DON'T mean that you're stupid, just uninformed about a certain topic. There's plenty of stuff I'm ignorant about too!

 

[جوري]

Hello Purest,
This is the third time I've tried posting—the past two times this site has froze my computer. So I'm going to be rather succinct.

Have I given the impression that I was feverishly awaiting your reply?

Really? All Muslims are drafted in times of war?

All Muslim women too? Right...

If a woman wants to perform jihad on battle field she may.. you may go ahead and read about Om Omara and khwala bint al'azwar as well as many others!

This is priceless. I asked you how you'd feel about paying a non-Christian-only jizya tax in America. And you respond by complaining about paying welfare!

glad you enjoyed it!

You know, welfare ... like the zakat!

it is really not.. I'd rather my zakat goes to people who deserve it, not trash who abuse it!

Can I get an honest response, please? How would you feel if you had to pay a non-Christian-only tax in America?

I have already given my response, read more carefully I despise repeating myself!

Again, this is priceless.

So are you saying here that you are opposed to a society treating a group of its people as second-class citizens with unequal legal rights based solely on their religion?

You only assume, you'll be treated like a 2nd class citizen, you have no real facts to this matter short of your constrictive telescopic view!

Or are you saying it's okay that the Muslims deprive dhimmis of legal rights because America also deprives Muslims of legal rights?

there is no deprivation in an Islamic soceity, just secular ones-- history is so telling!

And by the way: you speak as if I support this administration's policies. Let me make it abundantly clear now: I don't.

ok

I am certainly willing to accept that Maimonedes was treated better by the Muslims than he would have been by the Christians. Of course, medieval Christians were murderous, fanatical barbarians, so I'm not really sure if that's something to brag about.

I can brag about the Muslims.. I'll let the christians defend their own!

You claimed the Muslims tolerated Maimonedes, even though he said something potentially blasphemous about the Ishmaelites. So what did he say? You're the one who brought it up, why not simply answer the question?

HE WROTE A BOOK.. GO TO YOUR LOCAL LIBRARY AND READ IT. I WON'T SUM IT FOR YOU... Muslims at the time instead of killing him as you so would like to claim, just wrote a counter book.. he wrote zham, the Muslims wrote madh.. if you are unfamiliar with either books.. there is nothing I can do about that, it is deficiency on your part not mine.. it is not my duty to apologize or teach you what you don't know!

I haven't read Daniel Pipes, and your question is rather difficult to answer. I would venture to class a Muslim empire as being ruled under a central caliphate—but then through much of Islamic history there have been competing caliphates and rival sects.

90% of Muslims are sunnis.. the whole idea of rivaling sects and tribes is just so superficial nescients comprehend only what is apparent; not penetrating emotionally or intellectually. And it fits well controlling the herds.. I'd go more into details about that, but frankly I can't stand your patronizing attitude.. anyone with two brain cells preferably not held together by a spirochete can see where origination is from innovation.. a mere recent example is the ahmadi sect started by the ever benevolent british empire.. But I write this for those more discerening.. those who take a few steps back and look at the whole picture socio-economically and geo-politically, not for a 'merry andrew'!

In any case, I fail to see why Iran's and Saudi Arabia's legal systems are not "shariah law." Can you give an example of a period and location in Muslim history that was shariah law, with examples of how it differed substantially from Saudi Arabia's legal system today?

I have come to know you as mercurous.. you want an article for support, then you are not interested in Jpeg or PDF files.. will make your job easy, I post the whole article for those interested to read about what it means to have a khilafah, not particularly for you, because come your next acidulent reply, you'll not have read it and you'll ask me more of the same.. thus I underline the important points in the article.. simply a autocracy isn't a khilafah.. an Islamic state is very much democratic but its constitution is God's law not the law of old masonic cigar smoking fogies!

The Fall of Islamic Khilafah
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

(Friday speech delivered by Imam Mohamed Baianonie at the Islamic Center or Raleigh, NC on April 14, 2000)

When we talk about the fall of Islamic Khilafah and the end of the Islamic State, we talk about one of the most important issues. The end of Khilafah was and still is the most devastating crises that happened to the Muslim Ummah in the contemporary age. The Muslim Ummah still suffers from this crises and will continue to suffer until the Muslim Ummah returns to its glory and the Islamic Khilafah as the prophet (S.A.W.) promised. He (S.A.W.) said: "The prophet-hood will last as long as Allah (S.W.T.) is willing, then he will lift it. Then, a rightly guided Khilafah will be according to the prophet’s way and will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a hereditary power that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be dictatorships that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a Khilafah according to the prophet’s way. The prophet, then fell silent." {Authentic Hadith reported by Imams Ahmad, Al-Bazar and At-Tabrani.}

In this Hadith, the prophet (S.A.W.) reveals to us what Allah (S.W.T.) had revealed to him. He tells us about the different phases of regimes that will rule the Muslim Ummah for a long time. We see that his prophecy is quite truthful. After he died, there was a rightly guided Khilafah, then there was a hereditary power starting with the rule of The Ummayyad, then the Abbasi and lastly the Ottomans. Then, dictatorships prevailed and still prevail over the Muslim lands since the fall of the Ottoman Khilafah. Then, the Khilafah will come back with the will of Allah (S.W.T.) to rule the Muslim Ummah and will remain as long as Allah is willing. Indeed, this will happen because Allah’s promise is true and Allah does not break His promise. Allah (S.W.T) said in surat As-Saff, (Verses 9), what can be translated as, "He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the deen of truth to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the musheikeen (disbeliveers) hate it." So, Muslims should work hard and with sincerity so that Allah will fulfill his promise.

Why did the Khilafah fall after it had lasted for 1300 years?

It is a must that we answer this questions objectively because if we know the answer, we will be able to go back to our glory.

With the fall of the Islamic Khilafah, one of the greatest blessing that Allah (S.W.T.) bestowed upon the Ummah had gone. This blessing is Islam as a complete way of life that dealt with all aspects of life. Allah (S.W.T.) says about this blessing in surat Al-Mai'dah, (Verse 3), what can be translated as, "This day I have perfected your deen for you, completed my favor upon you, and I have chosen for you Islam as your deen."

The Nobel Qur’an tells us about the ways of Allah (S.W.T.) in changing the human societies and emphasized to us that Allah’s ways are universal laws that do not change and will affect all people with no exception. Allah (S.W.T) said in surat Al-Fat-h, (Verses 23), what can be translated as, "That has been the sunnah (way) of Allah already with those who passed away before. And you will not find any change in the sunnah (way) of Allah." and in another verse, Allah (S.W.T) said in surat Fater, (Verses 43), what can be translated as, "…So no change will you find in sunnah (way) of Allah, and no turning off will you find in sunnah of Allah (way of dealing).

The Noble Qur’an tells us that when corruption hit the societies and devastate the people, it starts in the most advanced political, economical, and social phase of a society. Corruption starts at that point, and if there is no one to stop corruption and stop those oppressors who are promoting corruption, then corruption will prevail and will permeate the majority of the society if not all of it. Then, the whole society deserves the punishment of Allah (S.W.T.). Allah (S.W.T) said in surat Al-Esra', (Verses 16), what can be translated as, "And when We decide to destroy a town (population), We (first) send a defined order among them who are given the good things of this life. Then, they transgress therein, and thus the word (of torment) is justified against it (them). Then We destroy it with complete destruction."

The Noble Qur’an tells us that the punishment and devastation befall a society as a punishment from Allah because of the spread of evil and because no one is trying to stop evil from spreading further. The punishment befalls all people even the righteous people for a purpose and wisdom that Allah wants. Allah (S.W.T) said in surat Al-Anfal, (Verses 25), what can be translated as, "And fear the fetnah (affliction) which affects not only who do wrong (but it may afflict all the bad and the good people), and know that Allah is severe in punishment." And the prophet (S.A.W.) emphasizes this meaning when he said: "…Woe to the Arabs because of the evil which has drawn near!…" Zainab, his wife, said: O Allah's Messenger! Shall we perish while still there will be righteous people among us? He replied, "Yes, when wickedness abounds." {Reported by Imams Bukhari and Muslim.} In another narration by Imam Ahmad: "… then they will be resurrected according to their intentions." In another Hadith, the prophet (S.A.W.) says: "If people see the oppressor without stopping him, Allah will punish them."

Sayyid Qutb said: "If a group of people allows some among them to practice oppression in any shape or form – and the most oppressive practice is rejecting Allah’s legislation – then, the other would not stand against them and do not stop them… then, this group of people will deserve to be punished along with the oppressive people." Because remaining silent is consent and the consenting person is a partner in crime.

Indeed, the weakness started in the Ummah internally. This weakness is in the following two primary aspects: Weak Islamic understanding, and bad implementation of Islam.

Weak Islamic Understanding: This affected many Muslims. It led to the following:
Wrong understanding for some aspect of the Islamic Aqeedah, emergence of many different groups and sects that got away from the straight path, and that were influenced by the non-Islamic philosophies. The concept of Al-Qada' and Al-Qadar was misunderstood. Also, the concept of Tawakul (depending) on Allah (S.W.T.) was misunderstood.
Misconception of the meaning of Ibadah to the point that it is misunderstood as being restricted to the rituals of worship only.
Misunderstanding the concept of Zuhd and the means to purify the soul and being influenced by the non-Islamic spiritualities. This curbed the private and the public Islamic life.

Bad Implementation of Islam: This led to the following:

Not ruling with what Allah (S.W.T.) revealed concerning the life of people, and importing man-made laws.

Not taking seriously the duty of enjoining good and forbidding evil.

Not taking seriously the duty of delivering the Da'wah and conveying the message of Islam to all people.

Ending Jihad for the sake of Allah (S.W.T.), with which corruption is removed from the face of the earth by carrying the Da'wah and protecting it.

Not taking seriously the moral aspect of Islam and bad social relationships amongst people.

Indeed, Allah (S.W.T.) has blessed this Ummah so much. The greatest blessing is the Islam, the Deen of Allah. The Ummah embraced this blessing with the correct understanding and complete implementation for its rules. With that, it was the greatest Ummah raised for humanity and led people in all fields and for centuries. But, when it let go of this great blessing by not making the effort to understand it and correctly implement it, then Allah (S.W.T.) sent His punishment. Allah (S.W.T) said in surat Al-Anfal, (Verses 53), what can be translated as, "That is so because Allah will never change a grace which He has bestowed on a people until they change what is in their own selves…"After the Ummah was powerful, it became weak. After it was the leader, it became a follower. After it was one, it became divided. After it was at peace, it became fearful….

Indeed, the enemies of Islam conspired against the Muslim Ummah especially towards the end of the Ottoman era. We can mention many of these conspiracies, but that alone should not lead to the fall of Khilafah because the presence of the enemies of Islam and their conspiracies is not something new. It is present in all ages. But, the primary problem is in the spread of many diseases and that they were not treated correctly. This led to weakness and finally to collapse of the immune system of the Muslim Ummah. Then, it became an easy prey and was destroyed utterly and divided into many pieces to the extent that even the enemy can not believe what happened to the Muslim Ummah.

So, it is a must for us to study in some details the weakness in the understanding of the Muslim Ummah toward Islam and toward its implementation in life. This lack of understanding is the reason behind its weakness and its degradation. We will try to shed more light on this in the future by the will of Allah (S.W.T.)

Or are you saying shariah law is only possible in a Muslim empire/caliphate? That seems a bit silly, but whatever floats your boat, as the argument then becomes semantics.

-- Read above!

By "we" I meant "me and you." We disagree on what constitutes "sexual deviance." I thought that was rather plain.

not plain at all!.. I don't know who you are, or how deep is your understanding of medical psychology not google psychology-- short of your own testament --and sadly your credibility diminishes with each post!

You're comparing homosexuality to defamation?

I have defined it as a state markedly different from the norm and what is decreed by 'nature'-- perhaps you care to shed some light on some other rudimentary elements that hasn't made the news so that you are not making a complete *** of yourself !

I'm glad that isn't your only analogy, because it's a pretty terrible one. Do you have any more? Because I'm failing to see what harm homosexuality causes.

I have many.. the only problem is I have lost interest engaging you.. here is one for the road.. do you see any problem in a woman donating her eggs? probably you'd think it altruistic? irregardless of the fact that siblings might end up marrying each other in the future, or the stress of under going treatments that include massive amounts of hormones and their long term affects, or even the psychological ramification selling a part of you in a style not unsimilar to that of a street worker... hurt doesn't have to be slapping you in the face for you to appreciate it.
I can respect that we will part ways on what we deem moral.. but I will not respect you thinking your persistence into folly, will some how make you wiser, or that we'll see you in the light of a learned scholar!

I can understand unprotected or casual sex causing harm. But I can't think of a single way homosexuality itself is harmful.

I don't expect that you will, and we can leave it as such!

This is funny, coming from someone who clearly doesn't understand the theory of evolution and sees fit to make comments on it—but who simultaneously derides me for making comments on subjects I (supposedly) don't understand, like shariah law ....

You may visit the 'Muslim evolutionists' thread on the refutation section of LI and refute me on what I know or don't know of evolution!

...but unlike you, I'll be a gentleman and explain. Natural selection is not a magic wand, and things do not evolve to "have a use for our universe." For example, humans have appendixes, which are all but useless. The genetic component of homosexuality—if there is one—may well be tied to other phenotypes that are selected for. Genes often do not work alone. There are also a large number of reasons why a genotype including traits that do not directly contribute to the propogation of the species would be selected for, especially in successful species where there is "wiggle room."

• Appendix has a function, according to Duke University study
• We have long wondered what the appendix is there for. We may have reached the end of the debate as a group of immunologists and surgeons from the Duke University Medical School think they've found the appendix' ... via Xbox 360 News Coverage 24

you may actually read about this right here on LI too in the health and science section!

sad to see with all those 'medical journals' you are subscribed to, you can't keep uptodate with the latest?
Again go to Muslim evolutionist threads and come explain to me how favorable traits that are heritable become more common in successive generations fits into the scheme of trinucleotide repeat expansion disorders.. .. in fact go ahead and refute me this article on evolution in your learned gentleman like manner ...


http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_PrimitiveCell_112302.pdf

Secondly, it is not clear to what extent homosexuality is determined by genetics or environment. Sociopathy, for example, seems to be environmentally-determined and is counteractive to the species' survival.

more blah

You sought to explain animal homosexuality as instances of opportunistic hypersexuality. Just pointing out that you were incorrect.

sadly-- I know for a fact you didn't even know what Klüver-Bucy was or is, until I posted it and made the comparison of brain damage corresponding to homosexual behavior found in animal, to come and define for me where I am incorrect..

I asked "when did you choose to be a heterosexual, as opposed to a homosexual or a necrosexual?"

When did you decide to become an atheist?

Of course, I'm being rhetorical here, because your assertion is plain nonsense. Nobody chooses to desire one thing over another.

because you said so? lust is animal, love is noble.. therein lies the difference, it is as simple as understanding the difference between the two.. do you go hump every attractive woman that you meet on the streets because you desire and you really can't help it? Once you understand the guidelines, it becomes easy and we don't argue the same points repeatedly on every thread!

Now, you go on to post something about aversion therapy as "evidence" that homosexuality is a "choice."

No.. it means it was a form of sexual deviance no different from the rest.. you'd readily call some pederast priest sick and deviant and deserves to be locked away for life, with your ever changing morality, but you don't think the same of a homosexual, which, only highlights your hypocrisy. I have never claimed the treatment of either condition was successful, I have merely stated at some point they were both in same category.. any additives here are done on your part.. oh leader of the pack and holder of the flame!

You could have gone back and read what you posted before. You claimed there were certain fundamental laws that never changed.

I asked you what they were.

heard of the commandments? .. they are transcendent I hope?

You said unchanging laws were better than so-called man-made laws because man-made laws are constantly changing. I got the impression that you did not like change.

You have linear style thinking.. there is nothing I can do to help that.

So are you okay with changing views of reality, but not with changing moral laws? That seems inconsistent, since moral laws ought to be a reflection of our knowledge of reality. Don't you think?

What reality is that? is reality for you solely contingent on the rights of homosexuals as you conceive them to be today? which until now you haven't with any dexterity proven to me it is anything but an act of sexual deviance?

Why on earth do you continue to compare Islam with the medieval Christians, as if I'm supposed to be impressed that Islamic society was better than Christendom?

I really couldn't give a flying fig what impresses you.

Here's a question: what has Islam contributed to scientific knowledge in the past 400 or so years? Ideally I'd get an answer instead of a .jpeg of a bunch of textbooks....

what has atheism contributed to scientific knowledge in the last 400 years and I'd really like an answer that doesn't include a bunch of text books..

Can you support any of these accusations against me? I make all of my own arguments on here, and my intention is not to shock anyone—only to refute nonsense when I see it.

And you deem your awkwardly simple and provincial style reasoning, a refutation?

You were the one who demanded sources from scientific journals, and when I provided them and called you about your shoddy methodology, this is how you respond?

you haven't brought me one credible scientific journal.. pls don't confuse third party info from google with scientific journals and proper references .. this is what a scientific journal looks like .. for instance let's take your state of constant confabulation and learn about what could cause it ..
I'd give you the link instead of boring you with a large cut and paste, I know how you object to those unless you were the one peddling them, but consider it for demo purposes and not as an actual read, as it would require some ID from your end and a hefty subscription fee!

Wernicke's encephalopathy
Michael E Charness, MD
Yuen T So, MD, PhD



UpToDate performs a continuous review of over 375 journals and other resources. Updates are added as important new information is published. The literature review for version 15.1 is current through December 2006; this topic was last changed on December 29, 2005. The next version of UpToDate (15.2) will be released in June 2007.

INTRODUCTION — Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome is the best known neurologic complication of thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency [1]. The term refers to two different syndromes, each representing a different stage of the disease. Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) is an acute syndrome requiring emergent treatment to prevent death and neurologic morbidity. Korsakoff's amnestic syndrome (KS) refers to a chronic neurologic condition that usually occurs as a consequence of WE.

In 1881, Carl Wernicke described an acute encephalopathy characterized by mental confusion, ophthalmoplegia, and gait ataxia and associated with autopsy findings of punctate hemorrhages around the third and fourth ventricles and the aqueduct. A few years later, Russian psychiatrist Sergei Korsakoff described a chronic amnestic syndrome in which memory was impaired far out of proportion to other cognitive domains. While both observations were described in the context of chronic alcoholism, neither Wernicke nor Korsakoff initially recognized the relationship between the disorders, which was not appreciated until later by other investigators.

This topic will review Wernicke's encephalopathy. Korsakoff's amnestic syndrome and other chronic neurologic complications of alcohol abuse are reviewed elsewhere (See "Overview of the chronic neurologic complications of alcohol"). Alcohol withdrawal is also discussed separately. (See "Alcohol withdrawal syndromes").

EPIDEMIOLOGY — Typical brain lesions of Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) are observed at autopsy in 0.8 to 2.8 percent of the general population in the Western world, and the vast majority of affected patients are alcoholic [2,3]. The prevalence of WE lesions seen on autopsy was 12.5 percent of alcohol abusers in one report [4]. Among those with alcohol-related deaths, it has been reported to be even higher, 29 to 59 percent [5,6]. Autopsy studies have consistently revealed a higher incidence of Wernicke lesions in the general population than is predicted by clinical studies [1,7].

While cases of WE in men outnumber those in women, women appear to be more susceptible to developing WE than men. In several series, the female to male ratio for WE was higher than the ratio for alcohol dependence [1,7].

Associated conditions — While most often associated with chronic alcoholism, WE occurs also in the setting of poor nutrition caused by malabsorption, poor dietary intake, increased metabolic requirement (eg, during systemic illnesses), or increased loss of the water-soluble vitamin thiamine (eg, in renal dialysis). In one autopsy series, non-alcohol abusers accounted for 12 of 52 cases (23 percent) of WE [8]. Conditions associated with WE include: Chronic alcoholism Anorexia nervosa or dieting [9] Hyperemesis of pregnancy [10,11] Prolonged intravenous feeding without proper supplementation [12,13] Prolonged fasting or starvation, especially with refeeding [14] Gastrointestinal surgery (including bariatric surgery) [12,15-18] Systemic malignancy [19-21] Transplantation [22] Hemodialysis or peritoneal dialysis [23-25] Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome [26-28]

PATHOPHYSIOLOGY — Thiamine is a cofactor for several key enzymes important in energy metabolism, including transketolase, alpha-ketoglutarate dehydrogenase, and pyruvate dehydrogenase [1]. Thiamine requirements depend on metabolic rate, with the greatest need during periods of high metabolic demand and high glucose intake. This is manifest by the precipitation of Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) in susceptible patients by administration of intravenous glucose before thiamine supplementation [29].

Evidence for the role of thiamine in WE is supported by observations that the thiamine antagonist pyrithiamine causes experimental thiamine deficiency in rats, resulting in a sequence of ataxia, loss of the righting reflex, and convulsions [30,31]. In some cases, low levels of magnesium, an essential cofactor of thiamine into its active diphosphate and triphosphate forms, have been implicated with thiamine deficiency in WE [32].

It is unclear how thiamine deficiency causes brain lesions. Because of its role in cerebral energy utilization, it has been proposed that its deficiency initiates neuronal injury by inhibiting metabolism in brain regions with high metabolic requirements and high thiamine turnover. Events such as blood-brain barrier breakdown, N-methyl-D-aspartic acid (NMDA) receptor-mediated excitotoxicity, and increased reactive oxygen species have been implicated in thiamine deficiency-induced neurotoxicity [33].

Thiamine deficiency in alcohol abusers results from a combination of inadequate dietary intake, reduced gastrointestinal absorption, decreased hepatic storage, and impaired utilization [34].

Only a subset of thiamine-deficient alcohol abusers develop WE. Greater susceptibility among identical rather than fraternal twins suggests a genetic predisposition [33]. Investigators have found that in alcohol abusers with WE, the thiamine-dependent enzyme transketolase has an altered affinity for thiamine [35-43]. Variants in the high affinity thiamine transporter gene have also been implicated [44,45].

Pathology — Acute WE lesions are characterized by vascular congestion, microglial proliferation, and petechial hemorrhages. In chronic cases, there is demyelination, gliosis, and loss of neuropil with relative preservation of neurons. Neuronal loss is most prominent in the relatively unmyelinated medial thalamus [1,46]. Atrophy of the mamillary bodies is a highly specific finding in chronic WE and Korsakoff syndrome and is present in up to 80 percent of cases [1,47].

The lesions of WE occur in a characteristic, symmetrical distribution in structures surrounding the third ventricle, aqueduct, and fourth ventricle [1,47]. The mamillary bodies are involved in virtually all cases, and the dorsomedial thalamus, locus ceruleus, periaqueductal gray, ocular motor nuclei, and vestibular nuclei are commonly affected. Lesions occur less frequently in the colliculi, fornices, septal region, hippocampus, and cerebral cortex, which may show patchy, diffuse neuronal loss and astrocytic proliferation.

In about one-half of cases, sagittal sections through the cerebellum reveal selective loss of Purkinje cells at the tips of the folia of the anterior superior cerebellar vermis. The latter changes are identical to those found in alcoholic cerebellar degeneration, where they can occur in the absence of other Wernicke lesions. (See "Overview of the chronic neurologic complications of alcohol", section on Alcoholic cerebellar degeneration).

CLINICAL MANIFESTATIONS

Classic signs — The classic triad of Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) includes: Encephalopathy Oculomotor dysfunction Gait ataxia

Clinical recognition of WE is straightforward when an alcoholic presents with this classic triad. However, this may be the exception, not the rule. Detailed clinical and neuropathological data from 82 autopsies and 245 patients examined over 10 years revealed that all features of the triad were recognized in only one-third of patients; in most, elements of the clinical triad appeared alone or in combination [1]. Confusion was the most common presenting symptom, followed by staggering gait and ocular problems. A similar constellation of symptoms has been reported in smaller series [4,48].

Absence of one or more of the classic symptoms likely leads to under diagnosis [4,49]. In one series, WE was diagnosed premortem in only 26 of 131 patients whose brains revealed chronic WE lesions. All signs of the classic triad were recorded in 17 percent; none were recorded in 19 percent [49]. Clinical records recorded a high incidence of mental status abnormalities (82 percent), but much lower incidences of ataxia (23 percent), ocular motor abnormalities (29 percent), and polyneuropathy (11 percent).

The symptoms may present more or less simultaneously. Often, however, ataxia precedes other symptoms by a few days or weeks [1]. Encephalopathy — The encephalopathy is characterized by profound disorientation, indifference, and inattentiveness [1]. If these are less severe and permit higher cognitive testing, impaired memory and learning are also evident. Some patients exhibit an agitated delirium related to concomitant ethanol withdrawal. Fewer than 5 percent present with a depressed level of consciousness, although the course in untreated patients will progress through stupor and coma to death [1,50]. In one autopsy series, patients with unrecognized WE frequently had lethargy or coma. Oculomotor dysfunction — Nystagmus, lateral rectus palsy, and conjugate gaze palsies reflect lesions of the oculomotor, abducens, and vestibular nuclei. Ocular abnormalities usually occur in combination rather than alone.

Nystagmus is the most common finding and is typically evoked by horizontal gaze to both sides [1]. Vertical nystagmus can also occur, usually evoked by upward, rather than downward, gaze. Rotatory and vertical nystagmus alone are uncommon. Lateral rectus palsy is virtually always bilateral. Vertical gaze palsies are less common than conjugate gaze palsies, and isolated vertical gaze palsy, internuclear ophthalmoplegia, and complete ophthalmoplegia are rare. Pupillary abnormalities, usually sluggish or unequal pupils, may be present. A light-near dissociation is sometimes seen. In advanced cases, there may be complete loss of eye movements with miotic, nonreactive pupils. Ptosis is uncommon. Gait ataxia — Ataxia primarily involves stance and gait and is likely due to a combination of polyneuropathy, cerebellar involvement, and vestibular dysfunction [1,51]. When severe, walking is impossible. Less affected patients walk with a wide-based gait and slow, short-spaced steps. Gait abnormalities are appreciated only on tandem gait in some patients.

Cerebellar pathology is generally restricted to the anterior and superior vermis; thus, ataxia of the legs or arms and dysarthria or scanning speech are uncommon [1]. Vestibular dysfunction may be the major cause of acute gait ataxia in WE, also explaining the dissociation between gait and limb abnormalities [1,51,52]. These findings contrast with those reported in patients with alcoholic cerebellar degeneration, in whom lower extremity ataxia is common [53]. (See "Overview of the chronic neurologic complications of alcohol", section on Alcoholic cerebellar degeneration).

Other signs — In addition to the classic triad, stupor or coma, hypotension, and hypothermia were prominent findings in unsuspected cases [49]. Patients with WE may also present with the following findings: Evidence of protein-calorie malnutrition is observed frequently in patients with WE [1]. However, not all patients are malnourished; in Australia, some beer drinkers with WE were even reported to be overweight [54]. Vestibular dysfunction without hearing loss is a common finding [1,51,52]. In one study of 17 patients with acute WE, cold caloric responses were absent on at least one side in all, and abnormalities were bilateral in 11 [51]. The presence of spontaneous nystagmus with absent caloric responses appears to be a relatively specific finding in WE [52]. Vertigo is unusual. Some vestibular dysfunction is permanent after WE. Peripheral neuropathy is common and typically involves just the lower extremities [1]. Patients complain of the gradual onset of weakness, paresthesias, and pain affecting the distal lower extremities. In many patients there are no symptoms of neuropathy, but examination reveals diminished or absent ankle jerks and patchy distal sensory loss. Hypothermia has been described in 1 to 4 percent of patients with WE who went to autopsy, and it has been noted in numerous case reports [1,49,55]. Hypothermia may cause unreactive pupils [56], a finding rarely encountered in normothermic patients with WE [1]. Lesions in the posterior and posterolateral hypothalamus were noted in two patients with WE and hypothermia in one report [57]. This location is consistent with the known thermoregulatory functions of the hypothalamus. Other signs of autonomic involvement may include hypotension and syncope. In one autopsy series, hypotension and hypothermia were prevalent in unsuspected cases of WE [49]. While overt beriberi heart disease is rare in WE, other cardiovascular signs and symptoms are common and include tachycardia, exertional dyspnea, elevated cardiac output, and EKG abnormalities [1]. These reverse with thiamine administration.

DIAGNOSIS — Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) is primarily a clinical diagnosis. Laboratory studies and neuroimaging studies can be helpful, but the biggest barrier to diagnosis is a low index of suspicion when all clinical symptoms are not present and in the nonalcoholic patient. Institution of treatment takes priority over diagnosis, and response to treatment may be diagnostic. (See "Treatment" below).

Differential diagnosis — WE should be considered in the differential diagnosis of all patients presenting with acute delirium or acute ataxia. It follows that other causes of delirium are considered in the diagnosis of a patient presenting with WE (show table 1). (See "Diagnosis of delirium and confusional states").

In one case series of 36 hospitalized geriatric patients, thiamine deficiency was common and associated with delirium [58]. In another small series, thiamine deficiency appeared to contribute to postoperative confusion in older patients after hip surgery [59]. These results appear to be contradicted by a larger series of 118 older inpatients in which there was no association between thiamine deficiency and delirium; however, the inclusion of patients with dementia and a broader definition of delirium in this study may have influenced these results [60].

Also, structural disease in the medial thalami or inferior medial temporal lobes such as occurs with top of the basilar stroke, hippocampal damage after cardiac arrest, herpes simplex encephalitis, and third ventricular tumors are likely considered because of the neuroanatomic overlap with WE [61].

Clinical criteria — Clinical recognition of WE is likely when an alcoholic presents with the classic symptom triad. However, autopsy-based series suggest that many patients lack one or more elements of this triad, and in some, lethargy or coma is the predominant clinical feature [1,4,49]. (See "Classic signs" above).
While autopsy studies likely underestimate the presence of classic signs that were not properly elicited, recognized, or recorded, it is clear that the diagnosis of WE can be missed when reliance is placed on the presence of all three of the typical symptoms.

One group proposed criteria for the diagnosis of WE and KS in chronic alcohol abusers based upon clinical-neuropathological correlation [62]. WE is diagnosed in patients with two of the following four Caine criteria: Dietary deficiency Oculomotor abnormalities Cerebellar dysfunction Either altered mental status or mild memory impairment

Applying these criteria to a cohort of 106 autopsied alcohol abusers increased the diagnostic sensitivity for WE from 22 percent using the classic triad, to 85 percent.

The Caine criteria are clearly more sensitive than the classic triad, but given the high morbidity and mortality associated with the disorder, they are not sensitive enough. Specificity is low, and these were not intended to apply to nonalcoholics in whom the diagnosis is further impeded by a lower index of suspicion.

Laboratory testing — There are no laboratory studies that are diagnostic of WE. Thiamine deficiency can be most reliably detected by measurement of erythrocyte thiamine transketolase (ETKA) before and after the addition of thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP). A low ETKA, along with a more than 25 percent stimulation, establishes the diagnosis of thiamine deficiency [63]. This test is often not readily available, especially in the emergency setting. A serum thiamine or thiamine pyrophosphate level in serum or whole blood can also be measured by chromatography [64]. (See "Overview of water-soluble vitamins", section on Thiamine). The sensitivity and specificity of these blood tests in symptomatic patients are unclear.

Results from these measurements are not considered necessary for patient management. When the diagnosis of WE is entertained, immediate thiamine replacement takes precedence over laboratory diagnosis. (See "Treatment" below).

Patients with WE will likely also be tested for other toxic and metabolic conditions that can lead to delirium. (See "Diagnosis of delirium and confusional states"). In the setting of fever, or other suspicion for central nervous system infection, a lumbar puncture is required. In WE, the cerebrospinal fluid may be normal or may show a mild protein elevation [1]. Pleocytosis or protein >100 mg/dL suggest alternative diagnoses. An EEG may be ordered if nonconvulsive seizures are suspected. In WE, only about half of patients will demonstrate abnormalities, usually diffuse mild to moderate slow wave activity [1].

Imaging studies — Imaging studies are not necessary in all patients with suspected WE and should not delay treatment. (See "Treatment" below). However, diagnostic imaging can be helpful by providing evidence of WE in many patients and may rule out alternative diagnoses.

Abnormalities on computerized tomography (CT) scans or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) have been reported in small numbers of patients with acute WE [65]. CT may show symmetric, low density abnormalities in the diencephalon, midbrain, and periventricular regions that enhance after the injection of contrast [66-69]. Gross hemorrhages are uncommon in acute WE, but they have also been detected by CT [70]. These findings are uncommon in other disorders, and when present, should strongly suggest the diagnosis. However, CT is an insensitive test for WE; a normal CT scan does not rule out the diagnosis [48].

MRI is more sensitive than CT in detecting acute diencephalic and periventricular lesions [48,71,72]. Typical findings include areas of increased T2 and decreased T1 signal surrounding the aqueduct and third ventricle and within the medial thalamus and mamillary bodies [72-74]. Diffusion-weighted imaging (DWI) is abnormal in these areas as well [75,76]. The distribution of these findings is consistent with the pathologic lesions. (show radiograph 1 and show radiograph 2).

In one report comparing 15 patients with acute WE to 15 asymptomatic alcohol abusers and 15 controls, the sensitivity and specificity of MRI were 53 and 93 percent, respectively [48]. Other series have reported a higher prevalence of MRI abnormalities in patients with acute WE [72,77]. Abnormal T2 signal disappears within as little as 48 hours after treatment with thiamine [77].

Mamillary body atrophy is a relatively specific abnormality in patients with chronic lesions of WE [78]. A large decrease in the volume of the mamillary bodies can be identified by MRI in approximately 80 percent of alcohol abusers with a history of classic WE, and it is not found in controls, patients with Alzheimer's disease (AD), or alcohol abusers without a history of WE [78-80]. Mamillary body atrophy can be detected within one week of the onset of WE [77].

TREATMENT — The diagnosis of Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) is difficult to confirm and, untreated, most patients progress to coma and death. Fortunately, intravenous administration of thiamine is safe, simple, inexpensive, and effective [81]. Adverse reactions, including anaphylaxis and bronchospasm are reported but are extremely rare; in the United Kingdom, there were four reported cases for every five million intramuscular doses used and one report for every one million intravenous doses used [82-85].

Diagnostic testing should not delay treatment; treatment should immediately follow consideration of the diagnosis.

For patients with suspected WE, we recommend 100 mg of thiamine intravenously or intramuscularly for five consecutive days. Administration of glucose without thiamine can precipitate or worsen WE; thus, thiamine should be administered before glucose. Because gastrointestinal absorption of thiamine is erratic in alcoholic and malnourished patients, oral administration of thiamine is an unreliable initial treatment for WE [34]. Some advocate higher doses of thiamine as more effective, but there is no evidence to conclusively support a recommendation of one dose over another [82,85-87].

Although dietary requirements for thiamine are only 1 to 2 mg daily, absorption and utilization of thiamine are incomplete, and some patients have genetically determined requirements for much larger doses [36,88]. Daily oral administration of 100 mg of thiamine should be continued after the completion of parenteral treatment and after discharge from the hospital until patients are no longer considered at risk. Magnesium and other vitamins are replaced as well, along with other nutritional deficits if present.

By establishing a sufficiently low threshold for treatment, all patients with WE will receive thiamine, including those whose diagnosis is unsuspected. For practical purposes, all patients with undiagnosed altered mental status, oculomotor disorders, or ataxia should receive parenteral thiamine.

CLINICAL COURSE AND PROGNOSIS — Prompt administration of thiamine leads to improvement in ocular signs within hours to days [1]. If ocular palsies fail to respond, other diagnoses should be considered. In one report, recovery of vestibular function began during the second week after thiamine treatment; improvement in gait ataxia coincided with recovery of vestibular function [51]. Confusion subsides over days and weeks. Signal abnormality on MRI resolves with clinical improvement [77,89]. This early therapeutic response likely represents the recovery from a biochemical rather than a structural lesion.

In the largest cohort of patients reported on, residual deficits were the rule [1]. While gaze palsies recovered completely in most cases, 60 percent had permanent horizontal nystagmus. Only about 40 percent recovered from ataxia; remaining deficits ranged from inability to walk at all to a wide-based slow shuffling gait. As the acute encephalopathy and confusion receded, deficits in learning and memory become more obvious; the latter recovered completely or substantively in only about 20 percent; the remainder had a permanent amnestic syndrome. (See "Overview of the chronic neurologic complications of alcohol", section on Korsakoff's amnestic syndrome").

Case reports suggest that prognosis may be less dismal [76]. One exceptional case reports near complete recovery in a severely affected patient whose treatment was delayed for four months [90].

PREVENTION — Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) may be iatrogenically precipitated by glucose loading in patients with unsuspected thiamine deficiency [29]. To avoid this complication, it has become standard practice in emergency departments to administer thiamine prior to or along with glucose infusion.

The prevention of WE and Korsakoff's amnestic syndrome (KS) might be possible through the widespread oral administration of thiamine to outpatients at risk. Enrichment of flour with thiamine decreased the autopsy prevalence of WE in Australia [91]. There is also interest in whether preventing thiamine deficiency would also reduce the high prevalence of cognitive deficits in alcohol abusers without known episodes of WE [92]. The low cost and safety of oral thiamine argues for widespread supplementation in alcohol abusers and others at risk for developing thiamine deficiency. Fortification of alcoholic beverages has also been proposed.

SUMMARY AND RECOMMENDATIONS — Wernicke's encephalopathy (WE) and Korsakoff's amnestic syndrome (KS) are, respectively, acute and chronic brain disorders that result from thiamine deficiency. WE is most often associated with alcoholism but can also occur in other situations including malnutrition from any cause (particularly at the time of refeeding) and in dialysis patients. (See "Associated conditions" above). WE produces hemorrhagic necrosis in midline brain structures and corresponding deficits in mentation, oculomotor function, and gait ataxia. All three of these classic symptoms are present in only one-third of patients. Any one of these, but most often encephalopathy, may be seen in isolation. WE should be considered when one or more occur. (See "Clinical manifestations" above). While laboratory measurements and neuroimaging are often abnormal in WE, the first imperative is to administer thiamine rather than confirm the diagnosis, whenever WE is considered. (See "Diagnosis" above). Untreated, WE leads to coma and death. Prognosis is improved by prompt administration of thiamine. Whenever the diagnosis of WE is entertained, we recommend immediate parenteral administration of thiamine (Grade 1A). The usual dose is 100 mg intravenous (IV) or intramuscular (IM), repeated daily for five consecutive days. Oral thiamine and multivitamin supplementation are recommended thereafter as long as the patient remains at risk (Grade 1A). (See "Clinical course and prognosis" above). WE may be precipitated by administration of intravenous glucose solutions to individuals with thiamine deficiency. In susceptible individuals glucose administration should be preceded or accompanied by thiamine 100 mg IV (Grade 1A). (See "Prevention" above). Thiamine supplementation, along with other multivitamin supplementation, is recommended for patients at risk for thiamine deficiency. (See "Prevention" above).


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Yes, many wars were started by people who did not happen to believe in gods.

Even more wars were started by people who didn't happen to believe in unicorns. Since you brought this up again, I'll ask again: what on earth is your point? Are you saying that lack of belief in unicorns makes people ruthless warmongerers?

you are sophomoric-- I can't even begin to dignify that with a response or even credit you for originality what is with the recycled atheist reply? .. can't you come up with a thought that is your own?

Muhammad did not order the assassination of Asma bint Marwan and Kab bin al-Ashraf?

No he didn't.. I have posted an article above.. did you bother read it? or are you suffering from Neuroacanthocytosis..
p.s-- I really look forward to you looking this up on google and coming to teach me about i! =)

I am not trying to insult Islam by saying this. I have talked to other Muslims about this on another forum and they readily admit he ordered their deaths. I'm actually curious to hear how you interpret these stories.

I don't know what forums you have gone to or what you have read, or why I should even take your word for it-- above all else why I should care especially after providing you with a refutation?.. you want some hearsay information from the web and your 'discussions' on various blogs, be my guest.. there is such a thing as recorded history, and there is .. well, the crap you spew =)

Is that so? Does his name begin with an S?

Is that supposed to amuse me?


I stopped reading(more of the same) after that.. it is rather late, and I have lost interest somewhere after your first statement.. I hope you find a more interesting hobby than self-aggrandizing by overt display of your well let's just say, more severe than a moron but not as severe as an idiot, that which you unashamedly enjoy accusing others of.. I especially enjoyed that consolatory last post of yours.. as if I were looking for your validation to hang my self worth on!

You'll excuse me while I go be all meek and feeble, like a true Muslim woman -- I am rather surprised you didn't bring that up in the midst of your fecund manifesto against Islam?


cheers!

 

[believer]

Whoah!....

Salaam Purest Ambrosia...

Really interestingly, educationally - entertaining debate you have here...

I can almost see your exasperation. :uuh:

Relax sister... don't waste your precious energy. But I reall should praise you for your passion on the subject.

Salaam...

 

[جوري]

Whoah!....

Salaam Purest Ambrosia...

Really interestingly, educationally - entertaining debate you have here...

I can almost see your exasperation. :uuh:

Relax sister... don't waste your precious energy. But I reall should praise you for your passion on the subject.

Salaam...

I don't want to.. but I can't stand every dynamo of a hyperbole, who knocks on our doors with that Tartufe like charm.. I say this because atheism is turning so much into a cult-- a religion all its own (all of them humanists) how organized for folk who despise conforming?.. and they all deny it-- but with all their invisible pink unicorns and spaghetti monsters, I rather think myself disoriented at some Scientology formal assembly than engaging normal live human beings...

I should wash my hands of this, gladly... but I think it is my civic duty, where they see fit to tarnish history, our sharia and paint it in a foolish light infomercial style, for me to highlight error to the young Muslims on board.. some of them are as young as 11 can recognize truth from error.. and I trust insha'Allah, that those who seek the truth shall find it...

I'd not mind if the thread is closed I believe it has reached the end of its value.. will PM Br. woodrow about it.. It has been rather wasteful of my time..