Muslims converting to Christianity

[جوري]

Then no one alive understands it because there is no Islamic State.

indeed-- which confounds me as to your complaints. an empire dismantled way before your time... yes even you aren't that old.. yet you have a million objection.

I have a million objection living here to, I keep 'em to myself, pay my freaking taxes, and most of the time just shrug my shoulders at the incessant absurdities on the ten o'clock news!

chers

 

[wilberhum]

indeed-- which confounds me as to your complaints. an empire dismantled way before your time... yes even you aren't that old.. yet you have a million objection.

I have a million objection living here to, I keep 'em to myself, pay my freaking taxes, and most of the time just shrug my shoulders at the incessant absurdities on the ten o'clock news!

chers

indeed-- which confounds me as to your praise.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Righteousness is wonderful. And righteousness and justice together are even better.

I am not questioning the righteousness of Islam. But there is more to life than sharing wealth and setting slaves free. A rich man denied freedom to worship as he sees fit might feel every bit as oppressed as a poor man made the slave of another.

I am not saying that there is any perfect government in this world today either. I don't think there is. But I also don't think that what I understand to be the rules of Sharia Law would be so wonderful either.

This thread has to do with Muslims converting to Christianity. Some people wonder why anyone of sound mind would choose to do that. Well it seems to me that we have to realize that people do choose to make that change. We have only a few choices:
1) Decide that since we don't understand how any person of sound mind could do this, that the person must therefore be of unsound mind.
2) Allow people to think/believe as they wish as long as their actual behavior causes no harm to another.

Now in the first option, what I see happening is a viewpoint which takes the basic attitude that if people don't think as I think that they aren't thinking correctly, and if they aren't thinking correctly, they might think wrongly and out of my great love for them, I shall stop them and do their thinking for them. Many people hold to this way of thinking. It is common among parents with teenagers for instance. And certainly many various dictatorships have been established along these lines. I have a son from Vietnam, and he can tell you exactly what a re-education camp is all about. But though I expect Muslims to object to the comparison, this is what I see happening with regard to Islam's treatment of people who wish to leave Islam.

The second option has its share of problems as well. Because of the baseness of humanity, people can come up with an awful lot (and I do mean awful in every respect of the word) of concepts that they think are true, that will turn out to not be true. No doubt, Islam projects that Christianity, because of its views with regard to Jesus and God is actually an awful theology. Similarly, I think that Nazism, Mormonism, atheism, rooting for the Chicago Cubs are also awful things to believe in. But rather than passing laws that one cannot believe such things, I counter them in the arena of free expression of ideas. Yes, some will end up choosing (in my opinion) badly. But I grant that it is their choice, not mine to make. Jesus said build your house on the rock, not the sand. But that doesn't mean that a person is forbidden to build on the sand, just unwise to do so.


Which society is more just? The one where people are prevented from thinking, believing anything other than that which is proscribed for them, or one in which they may come up with and build their lives around false beliefs? Certainly, if the community is based on the truth the first would be more righteous, but I am not sure that it is more just. I see the second as more just, but I am well aware it is also likely to be less righteous. What we need is a society that is both righteous and just. I don't think we have found one yet, and that includes Sharia Law for it does not grant equal justice to all persons.

 

[al-muslimah]

All I have to say is Allah guides whom he wills and leads astray whomever he wills.I really don't care if these people really did apostasize inshallah in the hereafter they will see their " reward ". What a bad reputation.LA howla wala qowata ila billah.

 

[Grace Seeker]

All I have to say is Allah guides whom he wills and leads astray whomever he wills.I really don't care if these people really did apostasize inshallah in the hereafter they will see their " reward ". What a bad reputation.LA howla wala qowata ila billah.

I believe you have just given the best reason yet why there should be no law respecting people converting one way or the other. If it is Allah who leads them, then why should we humans stand in their way?

 

[MadeenJibreel]

I believe you have just given the best reason yet why there should be no law respecting people converting one way or the other. If it is Allah who leads them, then why should we humans stand in their way?

People have been given free will to choose what they want. Injustice is done to nobody.

 

[Grace Seeker]

People have been given free will to choose what they want. Injustice is done to nobody.

If no one stands in the way of the exercise of that free will and if no government seeks to punish those who do exercise it, then you are correct. But is that what is actually happening?

 

[MadeenJibreel]

If no one stands in the way of the exercise of that free will and if no government seeks to punish those who do exercise it, then you are correct. But is that what is actually happening?

Government is not religion.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Righteousness is wonderful. And righteousness and justice together are even better.

Both of those words, righteousness and justice have incredibly elastic definitions. What do you mean when you use them? When some people say righteousness they mean intolerance and when some people say justice they mean vengeance.

A rich man denied freedom to worship as he sees fit might feel every bit as oppressed as a poor man made the slave of another.

Is this just literary flair or do you really believe that denying worship practices is on par with slavery?

1) Decide that since we don't understand how any person of sound mind could do this, that the person must therefore be of unsound mind.
2) Allow people to think/believe as they wish as long as their actual behavior causes no harm to another.

These are not conflicting. We allow many people of unsound mind to do and believe what they wish.

Similarly, I think that Nazism, Mormonism, atheism, rooting for the Chicago Cubs are also awful things to believe in.

I agree with the first two. The third isn't a belief. The fourth is too horrid for me to imagine.

What we need is a society that is both righteous and just.

Again, those terms are too elastic for such a society to ever exist in the eyes of all.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Government is not religion.

Government is not religion. But some governments try to promote a particular religion. Just as some religions try to promote a partiuclar government.

But more impotantly, any one who exercises their will over another human being is in some way trying to govern their behavior and therefore is a type of governing authority. Be it a national government, a religious authority, or the government of an individual household, I believe we have to be a respector of persons, and that includes the individual's right to one's own self-identity. Part of that self-identity is, in my opinion, the freedom to believe as one chooses so long as the exercise of that freedom does not result in hurting any one else in the process.

For me to treat people violently because they reject the religion that I hold, would not be respecting them. For any religion to even condone, let alone to promote, violence toward someone simply for turning their backs on that faith is also to not respect that individual's God-given free will. Additionally, it would seem to me, that for a Muslim is to condone violence toward a person who rejects Islam is to be disrespectful to Allah who "guides whom he wills and leads astray whomever he wills", for if it was Allah himself who gave them the freedom to make whatever choice they would in this life, and it is he who determines their "reward" (or punishment) in the hereafter. What place is that for us humans to be punishing one another? That is best left to Allah, not an individual, not a government, not a church, not the Ummah.

 

[MadeenJibreel]

... for if they turn astray, that must be the will of Allah.

I think you're quite a bit confused there. Nothing happens without Allah's Will. Nothing escapes His control over His creations. But the bit you're confused about is that Allah gave free will to every human, including you. Now your choice in religion (as you declared it here on the forum) is Christianity. Your choice is your choice but the ability to have it is given by Allah, as nothing moves without His Will. So if you make up your mind to do good, Allah Will give it the power to do so in a way He Wills, and if you choose to do good, the ability will be provided for you, until your prescribed day of moving in the hereafter comes.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I think you're quite a bit confused there. Nothing happens without Allah's Will. Nothing escapes His control over His creations. But the bit you're confused about is that Allah gave free will to every human, including you. Now your choice in religion (as you declared it here on the forum) is Christianity. Your choice is your choice but the ability to have it is given by Allah, as nothing moves without His Will. So if you make up your mind to do good, Allah Will give it the power to do so in a way He Wills, and if you choose to do good, the ability will be provided for you, until your prescribed day of moving in the hereafter comes.

Thank-you for clarifying your meaning. I did not think that Islam was deterministic, but that is how I read your post. I'll edit my last post to reflect the correction you have provided.

 

[glo]

I wonder just how many people here have watched the full programme of 'Dispatches - Unholy War'?

I just have ... and I feel like crying, hearing about the persecution some of the 3000 Muslim converts to Christianity in Britain suffer. (This programme does not deal with Muslim apostates to other religions or atheism ...)

NOBODY should experience any suffering on account of their faith!

I wonder how those members here, who have experienced difficulties in their own families when they converted to Islam, feel about seeing the same happening (and, if I may say so, in seemingly stronger and more extreme ways!) to Muslims who have chosen to convert to Christianity??

BTW, I thought the Dispatches programme was very well balanced, and by no menas just 'pointing the finger of blame'.
It is worth watching!

Peace

 

[NoName55]

I wonder just how many people here have watched the full programme of 'Dispatches - Unholy War'?

I just have ... and I feel like crying, hearing about the persecution some of the 3000 Muslim converts to Christianity in Britain suffer. (This programme does not deal with Muslim apostates to other religions or atheism ...)

NOBODY should experience any suffering on account of their faith!

I wonder how those members here, who have experienced difficulties in their own families when they converted to Islam, feel about seeing the same happening (and, if I may say so, in seemingly stronger and more extreme ways!) to Muslims who have chosen to convert to Christianity??

BTW, I thought the Dispatches programme was very well balanced, and by no menas just 'pointing the finger of blame'.
It is worth watching!

Peace

I have seen real life unholy war where these nuevo Christians make persecution claims

I know of one woman whose husband was sickly looking man always at work (12 hrs x 7 days), she had 4 kids who were constantly abused by neighbouring white kids, there was daily ritual of posting crap thru the letter box stoning egg throwing car damage + cars stolen every time they replaced it (over 11 years).

police put it all down to (unknown) kids with high spirit just having fun and joy riding, instead of theft, burglary, racial harassment, robbery etc.

so the woman hatched a plot against the husband, and started to tell her doctor about how she was thinking of becoming a Christian and was being prevented and abused by her fundamentalist Muslim husband.

In December 2000, an army of police and social workers came to the house, while the husband was away, took the family to a "safe house" security cameras were installed around the house, permanent social worker (a Muslim hating Sikh girl) was assigned, as well as home helpers and school escorts for the children.

The husband is now a tramp who sleeps rough in Leeds and can be seen foraging for food in bins and trying to get himself arrested on winter nights for vagrancy. when seen by police they pick him up drop him off about 3/4 miles away from Leeds City.

If you are being harassed for any reason and are not getting any help from authorities, just claim to be a new Christian/potential christian and see what a difference that makes (I only know of cases in Leeds)

 

[Malaikah]

As far as I know, the most we can do, living in non-Muslim countries, is boycott apostates.

Does anyone have any information about who we should treat them? Violence and taking the law into ones own hands aren't allowed. We can only boycott, is that right?

 

[ummzayd]

If you think saying Mohammad is not a prophet is aiding an enemy, then I suggest that someone driving a high polluting car is guilty of murder.

not believing that Rasoolullah pbuh was a prophet is not in itself an act of treason, and in the lifetime of the Prophet pbuh those who quietly left the community of believers and no longer lived as Muslims were not pursued and killed. But this is very different from taking a pledge of allegiance, and then going over to the enemy which is determined to crush the community to whom you gave your pledge, and helping that enemy achieve his objective. that is treason.

peace

 

[NoName55]

As far as I know, the most we can do, living in non-Muslim countries, is boycott apostates.

Does anyone have any information about how we should treat them? Violence and taking the law into ones own hands aren't allowed. We can only boycott, is that right?

wa alaikum salaam
well, I would not boycott them but we should keep trying to bring them back but we cannot bribe them or help them as much as the church is able to (shunning is my last resort)

those motivated by economic benefits or promiscuity are impossible to advice so good choice to shun them.

those motivated by fear and desire to be liked by neighbours are easier to deal with as long as you can give them some backbone and self-respect

wa salaam alaikum

 

[Malaikah]

BTW, I thought the Dispatches programme was very well balanced, and by no menas just 'pointing the finger of blame'.

I don't think it is not well-balanced at all. If they wanted well balanced they would have highlighted the suffering of people from many different faiths who convert to many other religions. Not only from the religion that gets the most negative publicity (Islam) to the religion of most of the countries citizens (Christianity).

 

[guyabano]

Sure they do, they changed what Allah the One and Only Creator has sent to them as a Mercy, i.e. they changed the original teachings of Jesus, upon whom be peace, Islam (yes, he was a Muslim!), and this is how you got Christianity, or should I say Paulianity and it's countless variations, combinations and permutations?

Islam, on the other hand, was never changed. There are some sects who mutated in their (originally Islamic) belief and went straight out of Islam, but they can't be called Muslims any more nor what they follow now can be called Islam, Islam as revealed by Allah (swt).

And this will not be accepted from them on the Judgment Day. And Allah know best.

Well , that Allah-and-only-creator stuff is not my believings, thus, a religion is a cult is a sect is manmade. Now, all the rest is for me irrelevant. People are humans, and people can change things, if they only want.

 

[Amadeus85]

wa alaikum salaam
well, I don't boycott them but keep trying to bring them back but cannot bribe them or help them as much as th church is able to (shunning is my last resort)

those motivated by economic benefits or promiscuity are impossible to advice so good choice to shun them.

those motivated by fear and desire to be liked by neighbours are easier to deal with as long as you can give them some backbone and self-repect

wa salaam alaikum

And what about those motivated by personal choice and after long studying of both religions? You think that those ind of people dont exist?