Antiwar high school students win victory: Supporters say ‘Expel military recruiters,

[Jayda]

As of January, 51 West Point grads had been killed in Iraq. If you don't know what that means...it means they were almost certainly smart and well informed and had plenty of choices in life. Nobody tricked them into joining the military.

You will be happy to hear the junior officers are being killed in just about the right ratio to their presence on the battlefield. I hope that makes you feel better.

As for foreign nationals serving in the US military? Of course they should be offered citizenship after severance.

if people being killed made me feel good then i wouldnt be a nurse, i wouldn't go to medical school, i wouldn't be a pacifist and you and wilberhum wouldn't have anything to argue over with me.

out of curiosity how many of those west point graduates were enlisted? in fact, in the history of west point how many graduates have become enlisted men?

 

[Cognescenti]

if people being killed made me feel good then i wouldnt be a nurse, i wouldn't go to medical school, i wouldn't be a pacifist and you and wilberhum wouldn't have anything to argue over with me.

out of curiosity how many of those west point graduates were enlisted? in fact, in the history of west point how many graduates have become enlisted men?

They are all officers. West Point doesn't just have a really bad football team, they are also the United States Military Academy.

Your notion that only the ignorant or the economically desperate enlist in the military is elitist and naive.

The unemployment rate in the US is only 4%. You could make more cleaning chickens 8 hrs a day than you can joining the Army.

 

[Keltoi]

It is most certainly an elitist attitude that makes some Americans...usually on the left of the political spectrum, look down on those in the military as too dumb to make an informed decision about why they wanted to be soldiers. In reality, today's U.S. military is the most well educated in history.

 

[Jayda]

They are all officers. West Point doesn't just have a really bad football team, they are also the United States Military Academy.

Your notion that only the ignorant or the economically desperate enlist in the military is elitist and naive.

The unemployment rate in the US is only 4%. You could make more cleaning chickens 8 hrs a day than you can joining the Army.

hola,

it's the other way around actually, i think the military recruiters primarily target the economically desperate and ignorant, thus the article i posted before. you may call this elitist, i call it a statistic reality.

the unemployment rate in the united states = the structural unemployment rate in any capitalist system. in other words, 4% unemployment is normal regardless of what positions are presently available, it doesn't result from choice it results from economic structure. and while it is true you may make more in the army than cleaning chickens, you are less likely to be shot and killed cleaning chickens, something the army readily conceals (again, i reference the 'top ten lies of army recruiters' i posted earlier). perhaps there are people willing to risk their lives making an additional 3000 dollars a year... i think it is reasonable that they at least know they are risking their lives instead of being told the possibility of being deployed in a warzone are nearly non existant.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Jayda]

It is most certainly an elitist attitude that makes some Americans...usually on the left of the political spectrum, look down on those in the military as too dumb to make an informed decision about why they wanted to be soldiers. In reality, today's U.S. military is the most well educated in history.

hola

and i think it is an abusive and ignorant attitude that makes some americans, primarily on the right, strawman reasonable arguments about military abuses into ad hom attacks against soldiers. i also find it absolutely sinful and hypocritical for any "christian" to support the systematic advantage taking of economically depressed people. i might answer to right wing populism, but they will answer to God.

fortunately

que Dios te bendiga

 

[north_malaysian]

American students are lucky..

In Malaysia ..."No Politics at Schools and Universities" or "Students should not go against Government's policy"

 

[Amadeus85]

'illegals' are a red herring. it doesn't really bother you how many times a legal citizen gets pulled over for looking suspiciously mexican, or how many times 'fellow citizens' harass them under the pretext of defending america from 'them aliens,' it's all in the noble pursuit of enforcing laws.

otherwise they wouldn't be enforced.

in which case they aren't laws.

If Mexico doesnt like borders so much, they should open their borders with Guatemala.

 

[islamirama]

If Mexico doesnt like borders so much, they should open their borders with Guatemala.

Reminds me of this....

 

[Jayda]

hola

one thing i truely hate about the right is that they want people to envy the united states for our wealth, freedoms and power. but that is all they want... they do not want to share it. 'want this but you are not welcome to share in it.'

hiding behind immigration laws is not good enough, this issue is not about people who potentially come to the united states, it is about the subculture that is already here. it is the entire latino culture that is the problem. too catholic, too spanish speaking and too different to be accepted. that is why lou dobbs complains about phone services offering spanish and english, court translators and other public displays of bilingualism. these issues have nothing to do with being illegal or legal, they have to do with belonging to a culture... and yet they are they cornerstones of the 'push the illegals out' movement. we can all see behind the pretexts.

in 100 years it will be the latinos in brooks brothers suits on tv demanding that something be done about all of these horrible strange immigrants from china or liberia or arabia or who knows.

everybody wants the wealth and power and freedom but nobody wants to share it.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Cognescenti]

Reminds me of this....

Speaking of assimilating...where did the locals get the steel axe head? ...or the Phoenecian alphabet for that matter?

 

[Jayda]

hola,

let's get back on topic... i didn't mean to turn this into an immigration debate. it's just been on my mind recently because of something that happened to my cousin.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Cognescenti]

hola

one thing i truely hate about the right is that they want people to envy the united states for our wealth, freedoms and power. but that is all they want... they do not want to share it. 'want this but you are not welcome to share in it.'

Sorry Jayda, but that is from page 122 of the playbook and is unadulterated demagoguery.

The American economy is not a finite pie to be chopped up in ever smaller slices. It is dynamic. It grows (usually). It is good for motivated and vigorous and educated people to come to this country with their talents in an orderly fashion. There is even room for uneducated people to come and learn new skills...they will just have to be at the bottom of the ladder for a while. Most are happy to do that because it is light-years ahead of where they came from.

It is not good for tens of millions of people to live here illegally, hiding in the shadows, driving cars without licenses or insurance, taking cash jobs at substandard wages without health and safety protection...etc etc.

What do you think would happen if there were suddenly no borders tomorrow starting at 8 AM in a country like the US with a high standard of living? Have you ever been to Mombai? You are living in a dream world.

As for the rest of the world "envying" the US???? Who cares? It would be nice if they didn't try to kill us just for carrying an American passport in some places, but other than that, I don't really care.

 

[Jayda]

Sorry Jayda, but that is from page 122 of the playbook and is unadulterated demagoguery.

The American economy is not a finite pie to be chopped up in ever smaller slices. It is dynamic. It grows (usually). It is good for motivated and vigorous and educated people to come to this country with their talents in an orderly fashion. There is even room for uneducated people to come and learn new skills...they will just have to be at the bottom of the ladder for a while. Most are happy to do that because it is light-years ahead of where they came from.

It is not good for tens of millions of people to live here illegally, hiding in the shadows, driving cars without licenses or insurance, taking cash jobs at substandard wages without health and safety protection...etc etc.

What do you think would happen if there were suddenly no borders tomorrow starting at 8 AM in a country like the US with a high standard of living? Have you ever been to Mombai? You are living in a dream world.

As for the rest of the world "envying" the US???? Who cares? It would be nice if they didn't try to kill us just for carrying an American passport in some places, but other than that, I don't really care.

si,

i've been to mumbai, have you? and where have you been that somebody attempted to kill you for carrying a US passport?

stuffing the thread with paranoid predictions and misinformation about the united states being flooded with tens of millions of 'illegals' destroying our standard of living is a canard. the fact of the matter is that regardless of the number of undocumented people living in this country they according to the OECD they support the US economy by taking out a significant percentage of structural unemployment, simply because they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing, according to our federal bank they are helping to fix the account deficit by reducing the flow of remittances and according to uscis most undocumented aliens are here as the result of being the family of and living with naturalized citizens, family ties as strong as 'illegal' mothers living with their citizen children.

this is not about 18 year old drug dealers hopping over fences to pick fruit... that's the latino equivalent of the welfare queen. this is about families, economic opportunity and a sluggish antiquated and unfair immigration system, and this is about a right wing fear of a culture. if it weren't then they wouldn't need to rely on cultural fearmongering about spanish speaking (common to all latinos regardless of citizenship) and drug crimes (common to all citizens regardless of ethnic background).

their pretenses are false and their motivations are racist. start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion, i was serious about getting back on track.

and spare us the land of the free home of the brave speech. this is not 1925, the rest of the world is a very developed and opportunity laden place. the united states has a lot to offer, but it is not "light years" ahead of most of the rest of the world. anybody who has actually been to the rest of the world can tell you that, and by travel i do not mean from the seat of your couch watching CNN. but this is precisely what i am talking about, the right carries this arrogant attitude that we our wealth, power and freedom should be things everybody wants, but the minute we talk about sharing the wealth or opening up to allow people to enjoy these things it's a different matter. then america becomes in danger of turning into 'mumbai' or the rest of what you consider the lesser outside world.

this is not a land of opportunity when it requires a membership card which is only extended to a few people.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[north_malaysian]

Good one...

 

[Keltoi]

Actually, immigration isn't a "right" or "left" issue for the most part. The majority of Democrats also support border enforcement. The oldest trick in the book is to make this a racial issue, when race has nothing to do with it. It wouldn't matter if there were 14 million Scandinavians crossing the border illegally, it is still a problem and would be addressed as such.

Back on topic though, the U.S. military recruits those who are either seeking money for college or who already have a skill that they need. Usually those who can't afford college happen to be on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. Imagine that. We have an all volunteer military. Nobody forces anyone to put on the uniform if they don't wish it.

 

[Cognescenti]

si,

i've been to mumbai, have you? and where have you been that somebody attempted to kill you for carrying a US passport?

stuffing the thread with paranoid predictions and misinformation about the united states being flooded with tens of millions of 'illegals' destroying our standard of living is a canard. the fact of the matter is that regardless of the number of undocumented people living in this country they according to the OECD they support the US economy by taking out a significant percentage of structural unemployment, simply because they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing, according to our federal bank they are helping to fix the account deficit by reducing the flow of remittances and according to uscis most undocumented aliens are here as the result of being the family of and living with naturalized citizens, family ties as strong as 'illegal' mothers living with their citizen children.

this is not about 18 year old drug dealers hopping over fences to pick fruit... that's the latino equivalent of the welfare queen. this is about families, economic opportunity and a sluggish antiquated and unfair immigration system, and this is about a right wing fear of a culture. if it weren't then they wouldn't need to rely on cultural fearmongering about spanish speaking (common to all latinos regardless of citizenship) and drug crimes (common to all citizens regardless of ethnic background).

their pretenses are false and their motivations are racist. start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion, i was serious about getting back on track.

and spare us the land of the free home of the brave speech. this is not 1925, the rest of the world is a very developed and opportunity laden place. the united states has a lot to offer, but it is not "light years" ahead of most of the rest of the world. anybody who has actually been to the rest of the world can tell you that, and by travel i do not mean from the seat of your couch watching CNN. but this is precisely what i am talking about, the right carries this arrogant attitude that we our wealth, power and freedom should be things everybody wants, but the minute we talk about sharing the wealth or opening up to allow people to enjoy these things it's a different matter. then america becomes in danger of turning into 'mumbai' or the rest of what you consider the lesser outside world.

this is not a land of opportunity when it requires a membership card which is only extended to a few people.

que Dios te bendiga

Nice technique. Deliver a broadside full of cliches and insulting generalizations then call a truce. kay:

Paranoid.....second sentence. Stylistically, I think you were a bit premature on this.

Fearmongering....second paragraph. I think this one was well placed. Kudos.

Racist....wait for it.....third paragraph. You know, I will applaud you for showing such restraint. Generally, the racism card is played much earlier in the "debate". When played; however, it is a clear sign that all rational discussion is at an end.



Insular, narrow-minded bigot who couldn't tell the difference between Austria and Australia with a divining rod, NASCAR cap on head, beer can in hand, watching CNN yelling "look at all those **** furners"..............Last paragraph. Nice closing. Admit it...that is the image you had...right?


Lastly...the Mother of all cliches....."they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous.

Hasta luego, compadre

 

[Jayda]

Nice technique. Deliver a broadside full of cliches and insulting generalizations then call a truce. kay:

Paranoid.....second sentence. Stylistically, I think you were a bit premature on this.

Fearmongering....second paragraph. I think this one was well placed. Kudos.

Racist....wait for it.....third paragraph. You know, I will applaud you for showing such restraint. Generally, the racism card is played much earlier in the "debate". When played; however, it is a clear sign that all rational discussion is at an end.



Insular, narrow-minded bigot who couldn't tell the difference between Austria and Australia with a divining rod, NASCAR cap on head, beer can in hand, watching CNN yelling "look at all those **** furners"..............Last paragraph. Nice closing. Admit it...that is the image you had...right?


Lastly...the Mother of all cliches....."they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous.

Hasta luego, compadre

there never was 'rational' debate. i presented a clear lucid argument based upon infomation and studies from relevant organizations such as the OECD, which you called 'demonstrably preposterous,' about the economic issues involved and relevant agencies like the USCIS about the complexity of 'why they're here.'

your argument, on the other hand, doesn't have a direction other than "nuh uh!!" and it's built upon strawmen, fact by fiat and some rhetorical questions that haven't worked out your way. that's not rational, that's reactionary.

i'm not calling a truce with you, i'm not arguing with you... nothing you've said has given me the impression i should take your opinion seriously. i'm simply saying it's time to get back on topic.

 

[Cognescenti]

...
your argument, on the other hand, doesn't have a direction other than "nuh uh!!" and it's built upon strawmen, fact by fiat and some rhetorical questions that haven't worked out your way. that's not rational, that's reactionary...

Very well, let's take your claim: "they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous. Ask yourself who packed meat, performed landscape maint. and hung drywall before these postitions were filled by large numbers of people who somehow misplaced their documents. I think you know the answer. If cutting grass paid $100 an hour in cash I would do it and I am pretty sure I know where my documents are.

Of course there are economic benefits to a big low-skill labor pool. It makes things cheaper. There are costs too..chiefly in terms of government expenditures. Yes, it is indeed a complex problem, much too complex to glibly proclaim any opponent to open borders a "racist". Now, back to the topic. :shade:

 

[MTAFFI]

jayda I find it amusing that you think that these "under privledged" kids would be throwing their future away by joining the armed forces. Do you know many jobs open up to you when you can say you were in the military? IF they are underprivledged and have not been accepted to college it is the best thing for them, why not? What else are they going to do? Work a minimum pay job, live in a crappy apartment and struggle for the rest of their life? Give me a break


IDEA: How about the twelve million illegals that dont pay any taxes, auto insurance or really anything back into the system go and earn their way in? Wouldnt that be better than drunk driving illegals killing other people that have insurance and living them and their families with no future only to be deported and swim right back?

VOTE YES FOR IMMIGRATION LAWS

 

[Isambard]

Well Jayda, I am a latino immigrant (Peru). I was accepted by my own merits and I pay taxes, have identification, and get the same job as everyone else w/o resorting to lower pay.

Illegal immigration is not fair not only for natives, but for anyone who actually has to go thru the process to get into either the US or Canada. Illegal immigrants are very much a drain on an economy as well as the avg native worker in that they de-stabilize the equibrium of supply/demand by oversupplying the market with cheap labour.

I say take all illegals back to their countries and make punshiments strict. Yes latin america and central america on the whole is pretty terrible but hey, its our own fault by always seeking an 'easy way out'.

All defending illegal immigration does is reinforce the steorotype they we as a ppl are lazy and theiving.