Antiwar high school students win victory: Supporters say ‘Expel military recruiters,

[Jayda]

hola,

your backgrounds don't matter... it's only perpetuating the argument ad hominem begun by cognescenti et al. the facts matter... the facts i presented from extremely trustworthy sources (uscis) say that the undocumented workers in this country are here mostly because of very close family ties, such as the soldier who was begging the government not to deport his wife.

the evidence i presented (oecd) also says that undocumented immigrants reduce remmitances and reduce the structural unemployment. these are facts, empiracle observation and sound analysis from qualified experts, not stereotypes or reasoning from the seat of ones pants.

the facts clearly indicate that they are an economic beneft, not a drain, and that they are here for more substantial reasons than the desire to work for slave wages.

those issues dispelled, if this were really about 'the law' why does this movement so heavily support the vigilante border militias who extrajudicially hold people, have been kicked out of california for weapons violations and have been specifically condemned and been asked to disband by the President? where are these law crusaders on this issue?

furthermore, nobody has addressed my observation that if this were geniunely about border security arguments about dual language and 'integration' wouldn't be so prominent as they target a culture rather than a class of immigrants. spanish and other cultural aspects are just as central to a 'legal' immigrant family as an 'illegal' one, and recognizing both languages in the united states benefits citizens as much as illegal immigrants.

yet it remains one of the most hotly contested aspects of the so called illegal immigrant crisis. to me this merely demonstrates an ethnic agenda cloaked in legalism.

i'm not going to sacrifice the truth so that i can pander to prejudice because already bigoted people think i'm lazy and theiving. the masters degree in business and bachelors with dual majors in economics and biochemistry hanging on my wall from columbia university prove to me such accusations lack merit on their face. nor am i going to allow you to pretend that only latinos take my position, the entire democratic party agrees that the best answer is a path to legal citizenship, rather than mass deportation, based upon the economic and social realities i presented. the party that was elected by a majority in 2006 to control congress proposes a path to citizenship. why then should i back down because the half the lost out will continue to think i'm lazy and theiving?

lol the funniest thing is i'm criolla, not mestizo, and half french. most people think i'm italian, because all mexicans are brown and don't have names like 'annette.' i've had to hold my tongue through countless dinner parties with my husband's absurd politician friends while they rave on and on about hordes of illegals taking over the united states.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Jayda]

jayda I find it amusing that you think that these "under privledged" kids would be throwing their future away by joining the armed forces. Do you know many jobs open up to you when you can say you were in the military? IF they are underprivledged and have not been accepted to college it is the best thing for them, why not? What else are they going to do? Work a minimum pay job, live in a crappy apartment and struggle for the rest of their life? Give me a break


IDEA: How about the twelve million illegals that dont pay any taxes, auto insurance or really anything back into the system go and earn their way in? Wouldnt that be better than drunk driving illegals killing other people that have insurance and living them and their families with no future only to be deported and swim right back?

VOTE YES FOR IMMIGRATION LAWS

hola

my point is relatively simple, if the military is an opportunity for the underprivileged then why do they have to lie and misrepresent the danger involved (per the article i posted) when they speak to kids about joining?

nobody's answered that yet.

they're KIDS for God's sake, and already disadvantaged by economic circumstances. education is their best chance, not being shipped off to kill people in foreign countries, be killed themselves, horribly disfigured or scarred and very possibly emotionally distraught for the rest of their lives. does that sound like an opportunity to you? it sounds to me like a gamble, a very serious gamble, the kind of gamble kids in high school are not mature enough to make. fortunately they don't have to make it, because they are lied to about the very real possibility of harm the decision is as simple as taking the candy they are offered.

and how many times have you been hit by a drunk undocumented worker?

que Dios te bendiga

 

[MTAFFI]

hola

my point is relatively simple, if the military is an opportunity for the underprivileged then why do they have to lie and misrepresent the danger involved (per the article i posted) when they speak to kids about joining?

nobody's answered that yet.

How exactly do they "misrepresent" the danger of being killed in a war? My guess is if a high school student joins the military under the pretense that there is no danger in being killed, scarred or otherwise, then they probably arent a Harvard student anyways. I think everyone knows we are at war and everyone knows that people die in war, I dont think you have to even graduate high school to know that do you? Answer that please.

they're KIDS for God's sake, and already disadvantaged by economic circumstances.

I guess that is a bit of a catch 22 for the mexican student since part of the economic hardship is due to their old neighbors entering the country illegally

education is their best chance, not being shipped off to kill people in foreign countries, be killed themselves, horribly disfigured or scarred and very possibly emotionally distraught for the rest of their lives. does that sound like an opportunity to you? it sounds to me like a gamble, a very serious gamble, the kind of gamble kids in high school are not mature enough to make.

A gamble huh? How many have been killed or wounded in this war, say 35,000, that is a bit high i think but just for an easy number. With over a million active duty service men it looks like that gamble is about 3.5%. I would take that bet at the casino wouldnt you? You have a 96.5% chance of winning and making something of yourself, but there is the chance of loss. I would take that bet any day of the week, and I would have gone in the military myself when the recruiters came to my school, but I had a good GPA and was already shopping for college so the decision was easy for me, easier than it was for those who are doing miserably in school and would have ended up as the next flood of janitors, drug dealers, or whatever happens to high school graduates that take no further steps to better themselves.

fortunately they don't have to make it, because they are lied to about the very real possibility of harm the decision is as simple as taking the candy they are offered.

AGAIN, How are they lied to? They are told the benefits of joining the service, I think the downside is pretty obvious.

and how many times have you been hit by a drunk undocumented worker?

Myself, none, however my grandparents (luckily they werent in the car) had their car demolished by an illegal mexican who had no insurance and was under the influence, he fled the scene of the accident and was picked up passed out in his car 2 miles up the road. How is that for an example for you? Do you know what happened? He was fingerprinted, jailed and then deported, do you know how much compensation my grandparents recieved? NONE, their insurance is now higher because of the incident, is that fair? Not only that but there has been more than one incident in charlotte of the drunk illegal immigrants actually driving (drunk or not it doesnt seem to matter) on the wrong side of the road and killing people, probably because they dont bother to get a drivers license or even learn the language before they get in the car and put everyone else at risk. This is just one of many problems we face with this immigration issue.

que Dios te bendiga

wow, i really dislike that language

Goodbye or talk to you later is fine for me

 

[Liono]

Speaking of assimilating...where did the locals get the steel axe head? ...or the Phoenecian alphabet for that matter?

Or Spanish horses or African basket weaving

 

[Liono]

REmind me again, what is Mexico's policy towards immigration when it comes to their southern neighbors?

 

[Liono]

Very well, let's take your claim: "they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous. Ask yourself who packed meat, performed landscape maint. and hung drywall before these postitions were filled by large numbers of people who somehow misplaced their documents. I think you know the answer. If cutting grass paid $100 an hour in cash I would do it and I am pretty sure I know where my documents are.

Of course there are economic benefits to a big low-skill labor pool. It makes things cheaper. There are costs too..chiefly in terms of government expenditures. Yes, it is indeed a complex problem, much too complex to glibly proclaim any opponent to open borders a "racist". Now, back to the topic. :shade:

Exactly, my father does the jobs "no one else wants to do" every single day and is slowly being driven out of business because illegals depress the wages so much.

 

[Cognescenti]

I think most people know what an "Army" is for. It is a cross-cultural phenomenon. I suppose there might be a few who think the Marine Corps is some type of marine biology volunteer program, but I suspect the number is fairly small.

As for recruits not realizing there is a war on, I tend to agree with Jayda. I think any potential recruit emerging from a 5 year coma should undergo serious counseling and be made to watch 5 years of CNN broadcasts. Wait...that might not meet the new law Congress passed on torture. Perhaps just the counseling would be enough.

We have had Marine Corps recruits in basic training from Camp Pendleton come over to our house for Thanksgiving dinner for 3 years now. I haven't met one who seems to be brainwashed or think he signed up to be a radar technician. They know exactly what they are doing. They also eat a lot of food but they do ask permission for seconds. :statisfie

 

[Jayda]

hola MTAFFI,

How exactly do they "misrepresent" the danger of being killed in a war? My guess is if a high school student joins the military under the pretense that there is no danger in being killed, scarred or otherwise, then they probably arent a Harvard student anyways. I think everyone knows we are at war and everyone knows that people die in war, I dont think you have to even graduate high school to know that do you? Answer that please.

i do not know if you read my previous article but they tell students that the likelyhood of even being deployed to a warzone is almost none, they do not say anything about being maimed or disfigured, they do not talk about the emotional and psychological scars, they downplay the possibility of being killed (downplay is not the same as simply not discussing), and even the commitment involved... time, position you eventually fill, etc are misrepresented.

when somebody actively misrepresents the danger to a high school student, it does not matter whether the high school student understood soldiers die... they're simply told the reality is different... but what they are told is untrue.

here is another article about it: http://www.wlwt.com/news/4508233/detail.html

Recruiter: "You've got more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

I guess that is a bit of a catch 22 for the mexican student since part of the economic hardship is due to their old neighbors entering the country illegally

how? by paying taxes to support services they will never recieve? or by contributing billions to social security that they don't get to collect?

A gamble huh? How many have been killed or wounded in this war, say 35,000, that is a bit high i think but just for an easy number. With over a million active duty service men it looks like that gamble is about 3.5%. I would take that bet at the casino wouldnt you? You have a 96.5% chance of winning and making something of yourself, but there is the chance of loss. I would take that bet any day of the week, and I would have gone in the military myself when the recruiters came to my school, but I had a good GPA and was already shopping for college so the decision was easy for me, easier than it was for those who are doing miserably in school and would have ended up as the next flood of janitors, drug dealers, or whatever happens to high school graduates that take no further steps to better themselves.

its not as simple as dividing the entire number of people in the military by the number of casualties in iraq. as my article explained, it's a matter of what service you enter, and what the present military demand is at the moment. the army and marine corps bare the brunt of the burden. i'm not certain what casino you wish to gamble in but statistically you don't have 'more chance of dying over here than you do over there,' unless perhaps you live in johanessburg south africa.

AGAIN, How are they lied to? They are told the benefits of joining the service, I think the downside is pretty obvious.

here are the top ten recruiter lies

Myself, none, however my grandparents (luckily they werent in the car) had their car demolished by an illegal mexican who had no insurance and was under the influence, he fled the scene of the accident and was picked up passed out in his car 2 miles up the road. How is that for an example for you? Do you know what happened? He was fingerprinted, jailed and then deported, do you know how much compensation my grandparents recieved? NONE, their insurance is now higher because of the incident, is that fair? Not only that but there has been more than one incident in charlotte of the drunk illegal immigrants actually driving (drunk or not it doesnt seem to matter) on the wrong side of the road and killing people, probably because they dont bother to get a drivers license or even learn the language before they get in the car and put everyone else at risk. This is just one of many problems we face with this immigration issue.

did you ever consider the possibility your grandparents were the victims of chance, rather than a systemic problem of undocumented workers? because undocumented workers are not the only drivers that drive without insurance... in fact when your grandparents got into their cars they had a 14% chance they would be hit by an uninsured motorist. one in seven motorists remains uninsured:

"Despite laws in many states requiring drivers to maintain insurance, about one in seven motorists remain uninsured," according to Elizabeth Sprinkel, senior vice president, who heads the IRC. "

which makes it an issue that extends far beyond undocumented workers.

wow, i really dislike that language

Goodbye or talk to you later is fine for me

okay,

may God bless you

 

[MTAFFI]

hola MTAFFI,

i do not know if you read my previous article but they tell students that the likelyhood of even being deployed to a warzone is almost none, they do not say anything about being maimed or disfigured, they do not talk about the emotional and psychological scars, they downplay the possibility of being killed (downplay is not the same as simply not discussing), and even the commitment involved... time, position you eventually fill, etc are misrepresented.

What is the likelyhood? DO you even know, we have 1 million active duty service men, and another million on reserve, that is 2 million. we currently have at most 200K fighting, I think it may even be less than that. That is 20%, so by that logic 80% of people signed up are not even fighting for our country right now. In any case, whatever these guys are telling kids the kids know we are at war and they will probably at some point be deployed, if they join the service and think they wont ever have to do anything, are they just in for a free ride?

Recruiter: "You've got more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

Can you prove that statement false?

how? by paying taxes to support services they will never recieve? or by contributing billions to social security that they don't get to collect?

Thats it now we are getting down to it arent we, it is always what can WE get for free, why should we pay if we recieve nothing. Eventually the system of SS will be overhauled and something will be done, but why should everyone else who put into the fund be denied theirs? They are old and should get it we are young and we should figure a new way to take care of ourselves, perhaps contribute more to a 401k or an IRA account, that is what I have always done.... oh yeah that is right, if you are an illegal you dont really get an opportunity for such things, I guess it gets made up though through the free medical care, SS# scamming and of course lack of insurance premiums.

its not as simple as dividing the entire number of people in the military by the number of casualties in iraq. as my article explained, it's a matter of what service you enter, and what the present military demand is at the moment. the army and marine corps bare the brunt of the burden. i'm not certain what casino you wish to gamble in but statistically you don't have 'more chance of dying over here than you do over there,' unless perhaps you live in johanessburg south africa.

Again do you have proof of that? I am not disagreeing, just wishing to know where the fact that you are presenting is coming from. (dont bother using the argument used on the "about" website either, because there are many more than 133,000 people in Iraq )

did you ever consider the possibility your grandparents were the victims of chance, rather than a systemic problem of undocumented workers? because undocumented workers are not the only drivers that drive without insurance... in fact when your grandparents got into their cars they had a 14% chance they would be hit by an uninsured motorist. one in seven motorists remains uninsured:

"Despite laws in many states requiring drivers to maintain insurance, about one in seven motorists remain uninsured," according to Elizabeth Sprinkel, senior vice president, who heads the IRC. "

which makes it an issue that extends far beyond undocumented workers.

Did you ever consider that excuses are like butts, we all have them and they all stink... At least if the motorist were a legal US resident they could be sued and jailed rather than just deported only to return and ruin someone elses week.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_traffic_accidents.html
why dont you take a look at this site, this is just one of thousand when you plug in illegal immigrant traffic accidents. Where you say 1 in 7 dont carry insurance, that is a chance, however what about 3 in 4 hispanics? The fact is they have no business being here anyways, so even 1 life lost or ruined because of them is to many. The legalization process isnt even hard anyways, you fill out some paperwork submit it wait and work and whamo! you are a citizen, it isnt like it costs money, oh unless you count the things that we mentioned above.


okay,

may God bless you[/QUOTE]

 

[mujahideenryder]

That high school has some smart students.

 

[Liono]

That high school has some smart students.

No they don't. Compared to the surrounding schools (Proviso East, Proviso West, Hinsdale South and North, Downers Grove South and North, Walther Lutheran HS, IHM HS) Morton HS has a pretty high dropout rate.

 

[Jayda]

What is the likelyhood? DO you even know, we have 1 million active duty service men, and another million on reserve, that is 2 million. we currently have at most 200K fighting, I think it may even be less than that. That is 20%, so by that logic 80% of people signed up are not even fighting for our country right now. In any case, whatever these guys are telling kids the kids know we are at war and they will probably at some point be deployed, if they join the service and think they wont ever have to do anything, are they just in for a free ride?

hola

my article clearly answered this question. that's not logic, it's fuzzy math. as i already explained it's a matter of what positions recruiters are trying to fill (enlistees, not officers, for example), which branch of the military, and what the present requirements are among a host of other questions.

Can you prove that statement false?

i already did, 500 out of 133,000. johanessburg isn't even that bad.

Thats it now we are getting down to it arent we, it is always what can WE get for free, why should we pay if we recieve nothing. Eventually the system of SS will be overhauled and something will be done, but why should everyone else who put into the fund be denied theirs? They are old and should get it we are young and we should figure a new way to take care of ourselves, perhaps contribute more to a 401k or an IRA account, that is what I have always done.... oh yeah that is right, if you are an illegal you dont really get an opportunity for such things, I guess it gets made up though through the free medical care, SS# scamming and of course lack of insurance premiums.

no, it is about dispelling the myths that undocumented workers are leaching off the government. as my numbers clearly demonstrate they contribute and recieve nothing in return, that's not leaching.

Again do you have proof of that? I am not disagreeing, just wishing to know where the fact that you are presenting is coming from. (dont bother using the argument used on the "about" website either, because there are many more than 133,000 people in Iraq )

my article is my proof. if you don't care to consider it, that's fine. it's not going anywhere.

Did you ever consider that excuses are like butts, we all have them and they all stink... At least if the motorist were a legal US resident they could be sued and jailed rather than just deported only to return and ruin someone elses week.

...no i can't say that particularly crude thought has gone through my mind.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_traffic_accidents.html
why dont you take a look at this site, this is just one of thousand when you plug in illegal immigrant traffic accidents. Where you say 1 in 7 dont carry insurance, that is a chance, however what about 3 in 4 hispanics? The fact is they have no business being here anyways, so even 1 life lost or ruined because of them is to many. The legalization process isnt even hard anyways, you fill out some paperwork submit it wait and work and whamo! you are a citizen, it isnt like it costs money, oh unless you count the things that we mentioned above.

because i don't trust a website called 'usillegalaliens.com,' it's clearly agenda driven.

i think you mean 3 of 4 hispanics in some county called 'eastern shore' between the years 2002-2004 (if your article is to be trusted). how you feel this is quantitatively on par with my national averages is beyond me.

and again, hispanics are a cultural cross section, not an economic labor or citizenship class. which only further substantiates my assertion that this is not about laws it is about ethnicity. ethnocentrism masked by legalities. 'i don't like spanish' not 'we are a nation of laws.'


may God bless you

 

[Liono]

If they are not illigal aliens what are they?

 

[Jayda]

If they are not illigal aliens what are they?

people?

they are here illegally, i do not deny that. the problems for me are more to do with the complexity of the situation, what i feel is the real undercurrent behind this issue, and the way to resolve it. there are supposedly something like 12 million living in the united states - here because of family ties, jobs and slow or unfair immigration policies for the most part. many have lived here for a long time and fulfill important functions in their communities. they are not the scary evil throngs portrayed on TV, and i do not like that mischaracterization.

i also do not like how issues supposedly 'related' to the immigration problem such as official recognition for spanish in schools and other places. this is cultural, not a matter of immigration. using the immigration issue as a cover for these cultural crusades is disingenuous and wrong.

i think that the solution is integration of those people already here through a logical and organized citizenship exception and then to work out trade and economic treaties with neighboring countries (like mexico) that equalize labor standards so that there is no alternative to fair wages. i also think that better cooperation between the united states and specifically mexico (since that is the country with the greatest number of undocumented workers in the united states) both economically and in terms of continental port security is in our best interests, like the proposal given by the trilateral commission several years ago.

this seems more compassionate and rational to me than the insanity of demanding they all are kicked out of the country and go somewhere else. essentially the united states would be condemning millions of people to homelessness, ripping apart families and destroying local economies that (for good or ill) depend upon these people.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Liono]

people?

they are here illegally, i do not deny that. the problems for me are more to do with the complexity of the situation, what i feel is the real undercurrent behind this issue, and the way to resolve it. there are supposedly something like 12 million living in the united states - here because of family ties, jobs and slow or unfair immigration policies for the most part. many have lived here for a long time and fulfill important functions in their communities. they are not the scary evil throngs portrayed on TV, and i do not like that mischaracterization.

i also do not like how issues supposedly 'related' to the immigration problem such as official recognition for spanish in schools and other places. this is cultural, not a matter of immigration. using the immigration issue as a cover for these cultural crusades is disingenuous and wrong.

i think that the solution is integration of those people already here through a logical and organized citizenship exception and then to work out trade and economic treaties with neighboring countries (like mexico) that equalize labor standards so that there is no alternative to fair wages. i also think that better cooperation between the united states and specifically mexico (since that is the country with the greatest number of undocumented workers in the united states) both economically and in terms of continental port security is in our best interests, like the proposal given by the trilateral commission several years ago.

this seems more compassionate and rational to me than the insanity of demanding they all are kicked out of the country and go somewhere else. essentially the united states would be condemning millions of people to homelessness, ripping apart families and destroying local economies that (for good or ill) depend upon these people.

que Dios te bendiga

When you steal a car do we call them thieves or do we call them people? Are you to tell me because we have a common border these people are to get special privledges? You keep making it a racial issue and it's not. I don't care if the person is from Jolly good ole England, if you're here illegally you have to go back. Let's look at it this way. What are the immigration policies of the Mexican government? If they want a free and open border wouldn't they be advocating the same for their own Southern border? People here illegally knew the risk but they took it anyway. If I steal a loaf of bread because my family was hungry no one will have pity on me and go well if he goes to jail it will rip his family apart. At least with deportation the family can go with them.

 

[wilberhum]

People just like to use the "Race Card" because they want the people who think we should enforce the law look bad. It has nothing to do with race. << That’s a period.

Just this morning I heard that a group in China that bring in 20,000 to 30,000 illegals in to the country was shut down. I say good. I guess that makes me bias against Chinese too.

Here is Seattle there is a problem with car theft. A lot of it comes from Canadian illegals. My car was taken, cost me $20,000. Am I PO? You bet. Do dislike Canadians? No. Do I like illegals? Yes.

It is not a tough thought process.

 

[MTAFFI]

hola

my article clearly answered this question. that's not logic, it's fuzzy math. as i already explained it's a matter of what positions recruiters are trying to fill (enlistees, not officers, for example), which branch of the military, and what the present requirements are among a host of other questions.

I understand that but when joining service you choose what to join, you can look and do your research and you dont have to join the marines or whatever else, so yes it may be fuzzy, but if these kids havent learned to research by this time and they go in on nothing, then whose fault is it anyways?

i already did, 500 out of 133,000. johanessburg isn't even that bad.

Now that is a little bit of fuzzy math dont you think? Just because there are 133,000 troops doesnt mean that is the total number of everyone in the country, factor everyone in and then give me the figure.

no, it is about dispelling the myths that undocumented workers are leaching off the government. as my numbers clearly demonstrate they contribute and recieve nothing in return, that's not leaching.

So you are saying because the work here illegally but contribute to social security it is OK? What about the rest of the taxes, what about all of the people and reports on that site I gave you? Why, if they wish to help so much do they not just get a green card? Wouldnt be easier? I know why and so do you, they are cheating the system. Illegal is illegal, no matter how you cut it, it is wrong. Also I noticed that the articles mentioned nothing of what they take from the system. How about this, the average birth costs around 8K, do you know how many illegals come in a hospital and get a free delivery just because the hospitals are not allowed to turn anyone away? My wife is a nurse and they see at least 1 a week. Take 52 times a year time 8K, that is 416K per year just in one hospital in Charlotte NC. Do that all over the US and see if they are contributing or leaching the system. That is just births, nevermind the handful after handful of other incidents and occurences.

my article is my proof. if you don't care to consider it, that's fine. it's not going anywhere.

Hardly proof of anything, besides was that article not agenda driven? But yet you choose to use that as fact but disregard mine. I guess it is just all about what you wish to get out of it huh?

because i don't trust a website called 'usillegalaliens.com,' it's clearly agenda driven.

Perhaps agenda driven but if you take the time to read some of it you will find it is based on news reports, government statistics, etc. Deny if you wish but the facts "arent going anywhere"

i think you mean 3 of 4 hispanics in some county called 'eastern shore' between the years 2002-2004 (if your article is to be trusted). how you feel this is quantitatively on par with my national averages is beyond me.

Perhaps not right on par, but doing a bit of research and reading a little further down you will notice there are other towns and counties as well, do a google on it, it is amazing because whether it be 3 of 4, 3 of 5, 7 of 8 they all seem to reflect the same sort of problem.

and again, hispanics are a cultural cross section, not an economic labor or citizenship class. which only further substantiates my assertion that this is not about laws it is about ethnicity. ethnocentrism masked by legalities. 'i don't like spanish' not 'we are a nation of laws.'
may God bless you

No it is about legal and illegal, no one is saying they cant come here and work legally are they? We are not baring hispanic people from the country we just ask they sign the necessary forms go through the process and become a citizen, is that to much to ask? Pay taxes, register their cars, pay their insurance, etc. Everything that everyone else has to do and then they are fine, but until then they have no business here and they are only hurting the country.