so according to you jesus was a muslim....i find that very difficult , in fact impossible to believe..however you are free to believe whatever you choose..
Why would it be hard to believe that Jesus submitted himself to Almighty God alone?
I mean, even if you accept that the Gospel accounts are accurate, then surely Jesus had a great amount of submission. The Bible teaches people to submit to God!
I have to respectfully disagree..based on not only my scripture, but jewish scripture which supports christian scripture...jesus was emmanual.."god with us"..and jesus did infact state that he and the father were one..and told his disciples that when they look upon him they look upon the father..I know I know..I yield to civility and choose to agree to disagree..have a good life..peace to you
But did not Jesus submit? How many times did he say, not my will?
Why the change with Muhammad (pbuh)? While having new prophets might be of value for rearticulating the message, for renewed emphasis and reminder, and for spreading the message to more and more people, if one was still following the commands of the previous prophets, then wouldn't that be enough? Why would one have to recognize Muhammad now?
Well you would have to ask whether the following prophets who are not sent to you is right, I mean, it is almost the same as me opening a present that is not for me. One would have to recognised Muhammad because to reject someone is like rejecting the One who sent him. I mean you've read, I'm sure, the sayings attributed to Jesus about who welcomes you welcomes me and who welcomes me welcomes the father, or something to that effect.
A Muslim does not only have to recognised Muhammad, by recognise I take it we mean accept, a Muslim would also have to recognise all the Prophets before, whilst realising that their message is not for now.
Still i haven't found one single proof of existence of islam before Muhammed's times.
And I'm still to find any proof of the existence of Jesus before the 4th Century. :heated:
That is almost how silly your point is. Looking for a word is not the same as looking for what the word is talking about. I can look for the word Jesus but wont find it in the New Testament, does not mean that the New Testament does not speak of Jesus, because it does, it just means that the language is different from English.
Similarly, not identically though, Islam was present, no one has said the word was present, but the meaning of the word, submission to the will of the One God and abstaining from worship of idols. That was definetly present before Muhammad's prophethood.
So you say that in Arabia there was islam and were muslims before times of Muhammed?
And how is it possible that people before Muhammed times havent noticed islam? Pagans, Romans, Greeks, Philistines, Persians did notice Jews and judaism (see loads of historical textes, writings, merchant papers etc). Romans A.D did notice existence of christianity (books of Tacitus, Joseph Flavius) but somehow they didnt notice the other monotheistic faith which called to submission to one God.
What did you mean other? Do you mean that Christianity and Judaism were/are monotheistic? Well if they were then it is possible that they were conforming to the meaning of the word Islam, which is submission to God alone.
And so there
were people who worshiped one god alone the right way.
OK and how is it possible that Jews didnt notice the existence of the other monotheistic faith among (or near) them? Or you claim that ancient Jews were muslims? But if so, so why they observed jewish festivals like Hanuka or Shabat? How you can explain the ancient long tradition and history of the Jews.
Could it be because that is what they were ordered to do? That was part of their submission to God alone!
If jewish rabbis could notice existence of Jesus' sect, so how is it possible that they didnt notice the existence of non-judaism monotheistic teachings among them during the thousand years of their tradition?
Why do you think it would have to be non-judaism? What makes you think that they couldnt be ordered by Moses to do things which we have come to identify with Judaism?
Furthermore what makes you think that the sects might not have died out?
And if ancient Jews were muslims so who are Jews
?
Why would it have to be one or the other? Was Jesus a Jew? If he was a Jew how could he be a Christian? If he was not a Christian, which I guess is what most believe since most think Christian means 'Christ like', then why are you not Jew?
These are all labels, there was not a rule which said you have to call yourself Muslim.
Im sorry, but it still makes no sense to me.
If it doesn't make sense to you that Jesus submitted to God and that Moses submitted to God alone and that Abraham done the same then I guess I'll understand why you wouldn't grasp the issue of not focusing on a name but the meaning. It's ok
Well, I understand the concept of all believers were "Muslims". It doesn't mean there were people running around calling themselves Muslims in ancient times or even during the Roman Empire. It simply means that all people who worshipped the God of Abraham were Muslim, even if they didn't call themselves that. Would Moses have called himself a Muslim? Of course not, as the word didn't exist.
Just explaining that I understand the concept.
Yep, noone is saying you gotta believe it, but at least you understand it. :happy:
So ancient Jews were muslims? All or just some of Jews were muslims? And if this is true, so what is judaism, and when it appeared? If Jews were muslims so what were doing Jews in pre-islamic Arabia? :uuh: Does it mean that Jews and muslims (Jews?) were living together in pre-islamic Arabia and other parts of the world?
Im sorry but muslims' explanation in this topic is like this- "It's true, because we believe in it. And our belief is true."
Are all Christians Christ like? Maybe that'll explain it to you whether all Jews were Submitting to God.
For you to understand what Judaism is maybe you should look at the origin of the word.
Well Aaron, non Muslims like Keltoi and myself before Islam seem to understand the concept fine, Islam = submission to God alone.. Muslim = someone who does Islam, people before Muhammad submitted to God alone so technically fit the definition of a person who submitted to God alone, aka a Muslim, if you don't believe that there were people who submitted to God alone then I don't get what you believe Jesus and the Patriarchs done.
So ancient Jews were muslims? All or just some of Jews were muslims? And if this is true, so what is judaism, and when it appeared? If Jews were muslims so what were doing Jews in pre-islamic Arabia? :uuh: Does it mean that Jews and muslims (Jews?) were living together in pre-islamic Arabia and other parts of the world?
Im sorry but muslims' explanation in this topic is like this- "It's true, because we believe in it. And our belief is true."
Are all Christians Christ like? Maybe that'll explain it to you whether all Jews were Submitting to God.
For you to understand what Judaism is maybe you should look at the origin of the word.
Well Aaron, non Muslims like Keltoi and myself before Islam seem to understand the concept fine, Islam = submission to God alone.. Muslim = someone who does Islam, people before Muhammad submitted to God alone so technically fit the definition of a person who submitted to God alone, aka a Muslim, if you don't believe that there were people who submitted to God alone then I don't get what you believe Jesus and the Patriarchs done.
It seems that people, non muslim, understand this alright, and seems like the thread is flourishing.
Eesa
The purpose for which you were created was to worship Allah subhaana wa ta'aala (see adh-dhaariyaat:56).