Before Islam

[Grace Seeker]

So if I were to answer my own questions, they would be:

1. The purpose of creation was to live in fellowship with God.
2. The purpose of life is...?
3. After death, those who accept Jesus will return to the fellowship and those who do not will...?
4. Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood any of the points.

OK, got some blanks to still fill in it seems, and one relatively small correction.

1. The purpose of creation was ... because it was in God's will to bring him glory.
2. The purpose of life is.... to live in fellowship with God both now and always, worshipping him in all we are and do.
3. After death... those who accept Jesus are guaranteed eternal fellowship with God and those who do not will find their fate in the hands of a God who is both demanding with regard to holiness, yet gracious in all his ways. We must simply recognize that such decisions are in the hands of God, who I believe will render them with justice, though (recalling Jesus' parable of the shepherd separating the sheep and the goats) perhaps not with equity.
4. Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh.

 

[Grace Seeker]

There are quite a few similarities between Islam, Judaism and Christianity (from physical, such as clothing or even facial hair and mental attributes such as tranquility and mind-set). I can not take this as mere coincidence, rather for me it is clarification. Certain core beliefs are the same in all religions namely submission (though the actions are different) to God and keeping justice with the people.


p.s; I have no problem with people following their respective religion - in fact, as long as they are honest and sincere with their practices I will respect them more so than those of who follow the same path I do (who don't)

P.p.s; I understand and readily accept that religion is a form of control. I also believe that fundamentally humans require control else we'd all be committing harmful (physical and mental) acts not only to others but to ourselves.

All fine points with which I choose not to take any exception. However you have yet to actually address my question:

How can you be sure enough of the message of the prophets prior to Muhammad to claim, with any degree of confidence, that they all had the same message?

This question is asked in light of the fact that you say their respective messages are lost or so corrupte that they cannot be retrieved from what remains. If the messages are lost, you cannot examine them to compare them either to Muhammad's present message or to each other. If you cannot examine them you cannot note either similarities or differences because you have nothing to base your opinions on except speculation.

a Muslim would also have to recognise all the Prophets before, whilst realising that their message is not for now.

Eesa,
If all the Prophets before had the same message that Muhammad brought and his message is for now, why would their message not be for now?

Oh, and as a side point, I think that the suggestion that Matthew 25:14 says that Jesus' message is only for the Jews misses the point. As the Jewish Messiah, he comes specifically to and among the Jews. But it is obvious from his interactions with this non-Jewish woman and many other non-Jews that Jesus did not feel himself limited to ministering to Jews only. Simply reading the geography of where Jesus was as these things are related in the Gospel accounts, Jesus did much of his ministry of teaching actually outside of Israel among both Jews and Gentiles. That is why this woman knew to seek him out. But even more telling is what he instructs his disciples at the close of Matthew's Gospel: "go and make disciples of all nations". Thus, while Jesus may have limited himself with regard to the scope of his personal ministry, he has no desire for his message to be so limited. Jesus' message is to be carried to all nations, all people.

 

[aamirsaab]

How can you be sure enough of the message of the prophets prior to Muhammad to claim, with any degree of confidence, that they all had the same message?

This question is asked in light of the fact that you say their respective messages are lost or so corrupte that they cannot be retrieved from what remains. If the messages are lost, you cannot examine them to compare them either to Muhammad's present message or to each other. If you cannot examine them you cannot note either similarities or differences because you have nothing to base your opinions on except speculation.

Not every teaching has been corrupted and similarly since Islam came after it also had a few new teachings that were not in the previous holy books such as pork and wine being forbidden. There are teachings that are still practiced in Christianity and the fact that they are also practiced in Islam indicates my point. Examples: prayer, fasting, charity - all play key roles in the three big religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) This is what I meant earlier about them not being coincidences.

Basically, there is enough teachings (such as the examples given above) to compare them to Islam but due to the fact that quite a bit has been changed and also that Islam had additional rulings (as a direct result of the corruption of the previous holy books) Christianity and Judaism cannot be called Islam.

How can you be sure enough of the message of the prophets prior to Muhammad to claim, with any degree of confidence, that they all had the same message?

It comes down to the fact that I cannot believe that all these things I have pointed out are merely coincidental. If you look at what all the Prophets did for the people they all had the same goal which explains why there are so many similarities between all religions come to think of it. It cannot be a matter of coincidence if every Prophet taught the same crucial points: prayer (or being thankful to God) and justice to the people (i.e treating your people and others respectfully). I cannot off the top of my head think of any Prophet that called for the extinction of any persons which leads me to believe that they were all saying the same thing. The main difference is that the teachings were practiced differently which was partly due to human corruption of the teachings and partly because different religions came at different times.

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Peace

"THE RELIGION OF ISLAM

The first thing that one should know and clearly understand about Islam is what the word "Islam" itself means. The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Buddhism after Gotama Buddha, Confucianism after Confucius, and Marxism after Karl Marx. Nor was it named after a tribe like Judaism after the tribe of Judah and Hinduism after the Hindus. Islam is the true religion of "Allah" and as such, its name represents the central principle of Allah's "God's" religion; the total submission to the will of Allah "God". The Arabic word "Islam" means the submission or surrender of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim", The word also implies "peace" which is the natural consequence of total submission to the will of Allah. Hence, it was not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) I in Arabia in the seventh century, but only the true religion of Allah re-expressed in its final form.
Islam is the religion which was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah, and it was the religion of all the prophets sent by Allah to mankind. The name of God's religion lslam was not decided upon by later generations of man. It was chosen by Allah Himself and clearly mentioned in His final revelation to man. In the final book of divine revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah states the following:

"This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion". (Soorah Al-Maa'idah 5:3)​

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah (God) never will It be accepted of Him" (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:85)​

"Abraham was not a Jew nor Christian; but an upright Muslim." (Soorah Aal'imraan 3:67)​

Nowhere in the Bible will you find Allah saying to Prophet Moses' people or their descendants that their religion is Judaism, nor to the followers of Christ that their religion is Christianity. In fact, Christ was not even his name, nor was it Jesus! The name "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos which means the annointed. That is, Christ is a Greek translation of the Hebrew title "Messiah". The name "Jesus" on the other hand, is a latinized version of the Hebrew name Esau.
For simplicity's sake, I will however continue to refer to Prophet Esau (PBUH) as Jesus. As for his religion, it was what he called his followers to. Like the prophets before him, he called the people to surrender their will to the will of Allah; (which is Islam) and he warned them to stay away from the false gods of human imagination.
According to the New Testament, he taught his followers to pray as follows: "Yours will be done on earth as it is in Heaven".

Source: http://www.islamworld.net/true.html

Peac to all

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not every teaching has been corrupted

Well, let me just start with this first part of your first point. I thought it was the teaching of Islam that only the message brought by prophet Muhammad remained uncorrupted. What other uncorrupted teachings are there? Where can I find copies so that I might read them?

 

[Grace Seeker]

The religion of Islam is not named after a person as in the case of Christianity which was named after Jesus Christ

Let me shock you with a bit of news that you may not be aware of: Christianity is NOT named after Jesus. Jesus' last name is not Christ.

Christianity receives its name because those who adhere to it are submitting themselves to be followers of the one who was sent to this world as God's anointed (i.e. "the Christ") for the purpose of reconciling the world to himself.

 

[YusufNoor]

All fine points with which I choose not to take any exception. However you have yet to actually address my question:

How can you be sure enough of the message of the prophets prior to Muhammad to claim, with any degree of confidence, that they all had the same message?

This question is asked in light of the fact that you say their respective messages are lost or so corrupte that they cannot be retrieved from what remains. If the messages are lost, you cannot examine them to compare them either to Muhammad's present message or to each other. If you cannot examine them you cannot note either similarities or differences because you have nothing to base your opinions on except speculation.

Eesa,
If all the Prophets before had the same message that Muhammad brought and his message is for now, why would their message not be for now?

Thus, while Jesus may have limited himself with regard to the scope of his personal ministry, he has no desire for his message to be so limited. Jesus' message is to be carried to all nations, all people.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

the VAST MAJORITY of Prophets that we have knowlwdge of ALL descendants of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam, and are now generally[though not always correctly] called Jews. so if we want to determine what "their" message was, Jewish sources would be pretty reliable. here's a snippet from Rabbi Nosson Scherman in his "An Overview/ Ezra - Molder of a New Era" which serves as an introduction to The Book Ezra / A New Translation With A Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic And Rabbinic Sources with Translation and Commentary by Rabbi Yosef Rabinowitz:

The First Temple and the Jewish nation - both the Ten Tribes of Samaria and the Kingdom of Judah - had crumbled spiritually because of the sin of idolatry. ALL THE PROPHETS FROM MOSES ONWARD HAD WARNED ELOQUENTLY AND STRENUOUSLY ABOUT THE PITFALLS OF THIS CARDINAL SIN. Nevertheless, Israel succumbed, with the result that it was banished from it land and nearly destroyed as a people.
...why should there have been such an obsessive passion for [idolatry] that even the Prophets were ignored and murdered in the people's headlong passion to choose strange gods and pagan ceremonies over the ONE GOD and His Torah?
(emphasis mine)

so, the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW"; which is EXACTLY what Islam is!! AND this message is for ALL TIMES!! which by the way is ne single proof of existence of islam before Muhammed's times."

i hope this clears up alot of things, and i'm only happy to have helped! :giggling:

May Allah Subhannahu Wa Ta' Allah guide us all to the sratight path and grant us the understanding that we need and may He also grant us all Jannah! AMEEN!

 

[aamirsaab]

Well, let me just start with this first part of your first point. I thought it was the teaching of Islam that only the message brought by prophet Muhammad remained uncorrupted.

Indeed.

What other uncorrupted teachings are there? Where can I find copies so that I might read them?

What I was referring to are certain practices such as fasting and charity. Though they have not been corrupted, they are not practiced in the exact same way as in Islam.

Similarly the message from the previous prophets were all very similar (not exactly the same as the final message, but similar nonetheless). Now, had people in general at the time practiced the teachings as they were told there would have been no need for God to send another messenger. Unfortunately, mankind, at the time, saw fit to change the words of God thus corruption. So in essence, what certain Christians believe today and practice is not neccessarily what Prophet Isa/Jesus practiced.

The uncorrupted teachings are those that bare striking similarities between the 3 faiths (Judaism, Islam and Christianity and in some cases hinduism and sikhism) though they cannot be called the same since they were revealed later as upgrades or newer versions (which would explain the differences) due to corruption of the initial teachings.

Please note that corruption in this case means simply that it is not the exact way in which it was revealed to the people by the prophet whom was sent by God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Unfortunately, mankind, at the time, saw fit to change the words of God thus corruption. So in essence, what certain Christians believe today and practice is not neccessarily what Prophet Isa/Jesus practiced.

So, since the message that you assert that Prophet Isa brought has been changed and corrupted and no longer available to us today, how can you know what it was?

 

[YusufNoor]

So, since the message that you assert that Prophet Isa brought has been changed and corrupted and no longer available to us today, how can you know what it was?

there's a post above aamirsaab's! :blind:

oh and to answer your question, let me quote it:

the Prophets came to "RE-ESTABLISH THE WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE OBEYANCE OF HIS LAW

Jesus, alaihe Salaam, being a Prophet would have done the same... :thumbs_up

 

[aamirsaab]

So, since the message that you assert that Prophet Isa brought has been changed and corrupted and no longer available to us today, how can you know what it was?

A lot of the prophet's messages and the stories about their prophethood are contained in the Quran. That's how I know.

 

[Grace Seeker]

A lot of the prophet's messages and the stories about their prophethood are contained in the Quran. That's how I know.

There you go. So your knowledge is not that type that comes from examination and comparison, it rest on, and only on, your belief that the Qur'an has faithfully passed on the truth with regard to these previous messengers. And you know that it is so, because it says so. But you actually have no personal knowledge of what the message of Isa or any other prophet was, because you have never read his message, only that which others have said that he said. Well, us Christians, too. Only our record of these messages and your claims with regard to these messages are not the same. And frankly, when it comes to that which took place before Muhammad, I trust those source that are older than Muhammad versus Muhammad to be more likely to have it right. So, if Isa taught Islam, submission of the type that he taught is to believe in him through their message, not that of Muhammad (pbuh).

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message... {John 17:20)

 

[Grace Seeker]

there's a post above aamirsaab's! :blind:

I saw it. I don't comment on every post. But thank-you for your answer to my question.

 

[aamirsaab]

....And frankly, when it comes to that which took place before Muhammad, I trust those source that are older than Muhammad versus Muhammad to be more likely to have it right. So, if Isa taught Islam, submission of the type that he taught is to believe in him through their message, not that of Muhammad (pbuh).

I don't have a problem with that. The way I see religion is that they are like upgrades (in terms of the teachings/practices) for the people thus we should take the ''latest'' version i.e. Islam. That being said, I have no problem with other people following whichever religion they feel inclined to. At the end of the day it's what makes sense to you and what path you wish to take.

 

[Keltoi]

I don't have a problem with that. The way I see religion is that they are like upgrades (in terms of the teachings/practices) for the people thus we should take the ''latest'' version i.e. Islam. That being said, I have no problem with other people following whichever religion they feel inclined to. At the end of the day it's what makes sense to you and what path you wish to take.

I don't mean to quibble with you, but I find that statement rather striking. You believe Islam is like an "upgrade" and should be accepted because it is the "latest" version? That hardly seems like a good criteria from which to judge the credibility of a religion.

 

[tigersabre]

Grace Seeker,

The answer is simple and is as follows:

1. We are convinced that God has made Muhammad His last Prophet and is sending him revelation.

2. From amongst that revelation God is sending Muhammad, He has sent him the message that this is a confirmation of the message that came before. Other prophets are mentioned.

If you mean to ask, are we looking at all the world religions, and seeing that Islam is the last religion like all the other abrahamic faiths, and then concluding that Islam comes with the message that's the same as the others, then that's not correct.

It is the opposite - we are first convinced by the revelation sent by God to Muhammad as being from God, and then we look at what that revelation has to say, which is why we say with confidence that we believe that the previous revelations are the same messages, but they have been changed over time.

However, if we did have this theory, that it's a continuation, and we worked it from the other angle, the fact that the first Abrahamic faith calls to worship of one God speaks volumes.

 

[NYCmuslim]

Peace

I think in the end, the answer to the question of "before Islam?" will not make sense to the non-muslims unless they are convinced that the revelations in the Quran are true. To them, thinking that Islam existed before Christianity and Judaism is a tough pill to swallow. We know that Abraham, Jesus, and the previous prophets preached the same message of submitting to God because it says so in the Quran. But since they dont take the Quran for truth, they want some other proof that these prophets did indeed preached this message. Unfortunately, due to the corruption of the previous scriptures, we can't use them as definitive proof. So in the end, this whole discussions circles back to the issue of what is right: Islam or the other religions. It is only until they see the nature of what Islam is really about and are convinced about the truth in the Quran, will the answer to the question of "before Islam" make sense. Given that, I see no further point in going on with this thread. I believe the topic starter was convinced with the immediate answers.

See you guys monday Insha-Allah.

 

[aamirsaab]

I don't mean to quibble with you, but I find that statement rather striking. You believe Islam is like an "upgrade" and should be accepted because it is the "latest" version? That hardly seems like a good criteria from which to judge the credibility of a religion.

It's an upgrade in the sense of the teachings and practices due to mankind corrupting the previous religions sent to them. It's also the reason for why there are so many rulings and teachings contained within it compared to previous religions.

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Let me shock you with a bit of news that you may not be aware of: Christianity is NOT named after Jesus. Jesus' last name is not Christ.

Christianity receives its name because those who adhere to it are submitting themselves to be followers of the one who was sent to this world as God's anointed (i.e. "the Christ") for the purpose of reconciling the world to himself.

Peace

OK, OK.

Now I know and I will try to contact the people who created the website and will let them know their mistake as if you read the article, i retrieved from a website.

Peace to all

 

[Qurratul Ayn]

Peace

"THE MESSAGE OF ISLAM


Since the total submission of one's will to Allah represents the essence of worship, the basic message of Allah's divine religion, Islam is the worship of Allah alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than Allah.Since everything other than Allah, the Creator of all things, is Allah's creation; it may be said that Islam, in essence calls man away from the worship of creation and invites him to worship only its Creator. He is the only one deserving man's worship as it is only by His will that prayers are answered. If man prays to a tree and his prayers are answered, it was not the tree which answered his prayers but Allah who allowed the circumstances prayed for to take place. One might say, "That is obvious," however, to tree-worshippers it might not be. Similarly, prayers to Jesus, Buddha, or Krishna, to Saint Christopher, or Saint Jude or even to Muhammad, are not answered by them but are answered by Allah. Jesus did nottell his followers to worship him but to worship Allah. As the Qur'aan states:

"And behold Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary Did you say to men, Worship me and my mother as gods besides Allah He will say-"Glory to you I could never say what I had no right (to say')" (Soorah Al-Maa'idah- 5:116)​

Nor did he worship himself when he worshipped but rather he worshipped Allah. This basic principle is enshrined in the opening chapter of the Qur'aan, known as Soorah Al-Faatihah, verse 4:

"You alone do we worship and from you alone do we seek help".​

Elsewhere, in the final book of revelation, the Qur'aan, Allah also said:

"And your Lord says:"Call on Me and I will answer your(prayer)."(Soorsh Mu'min 40:60)​

it is worth noting that the basic message of Islam is that Allah and His creation are distinctly different entities. Neither is Allah His creation or a part of it, nor is His creation Him or a part of Him.
This might seem obvious, but, man's worship of creation instead of the Creator is to a large degree based on ignorance of this concept. It is the belief that the essence of Allah is everywhere in His creation or that His divine being is or was present in some aspects of His creation, which has provided justification for the worship of creation though such worship maybecalled the worship of Allah through his creation. How ever, the message of Islam as brought by the prophets of Allah is to worship only Allah and to avoid the worship of his creation either directly or indirectly. In the Our'aan Allah clearlystates:

"For We assuredly sent amongst every people a prophet,(with the command) worship meand avoid false gods " (Soorsh Al-Nahl 16:36)​

When the idol worshipper is questioned as to why he or she bows down to idols created by men, the invariable reply is that they are not actually worshipping the stone image, but Allah who is present within it. They claim that the stone idol is only a focal point for Allah's essence and is not in itself Allah! One who has accepted the concept of the presence of God's being within His creation in any way will be obliged to accept this argument of idolatry. Whereas, one who understands the basic message of Islam and its implications would never concede to idolatry no matter how it is rationalized. Those who have claimed divinity for themselves down through the ages have often based their claims on the mistaken belief that Allah is present in man. They merely had to assert that although Allah according to their false beliefs, is in all of us, He is more present in them than in the rest of us. Hence, they claim, we should submit our will to them and worship them as they are either God in person or God concentrated within the person.
Similarly, those who have asserted the godhood of others after their passing have found fertile ground among those who accept the false belief of God's presence in man. One who has grasped the basic message of Islam and its implications could never agree to worship another human being under any circumstances. God's religion in essence is a clear call to the worship of the Creator and the rejection of creation-worship in any form. This is the meaning of the motto of Islam:
"Laa Elaaha lllallaah" (There is no god but Allah)



Its repetition automatically brings one within the fold of Islam and sincere belief in it guarantees one Paradise.

Thus, the final Prophet of Islam is reported to have said, "Any one who says: There is no god but Allah and dies holding that (belief) will enter paradise".(Reported by Abu Dharr and collected by Al-Bukhaaree and Muslim).​

It consists in the submission to Allah as one God, yielding to Him by obeying His commandments, and the denial of polytheism and polytheists."

Source: http://www.islamworld.net

Peace to all