Islamists Regaining Somalia

[snakelegs]

ahmed,
thanks for posting the article. i am almost completely ignorant about somalia.
islam may well be the only thing that could unite the people.
sad to think how many people have never known peace in their entire lives...
in some ways, it makes me think of afghanistan.

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

quote:Calling the Islamic Courts "grassroots" is like calling American-led Iraqi coalition forces "grassroots." They are heavily financed and apparently armed from abroad, and many foreign fighters make up their ranks.


No offense, but your comparison is totally ridiclous. Non Somali Muslims fought in Somalia, but they numbered only into their hundreds give or take. Thousands is way over estimated and that is propogana by the Ethiopians. They even claimed that they had killed thousands of Eritrean Christian whom were help the I.C.U.When the I.C.U was on the run, most of the foreign fighters were either died, fled to the Kenyan border or are still hiding in Somalia. Even the foreigners they captured were either students that went to check out Somalia and Somalis who just happen to have foreign passports. Furthermore, the Ethiopians checked the entire countryside and found nothing. They would love to catch thousands of foreigners in Somalia, but there are none! Somalia is not like Afghanistan and many foreigners can't hide there.Every clan has a specefic territory!The Bulk of the Resistance is know made up of Somali subclans and Islamist fighters who belong to the Alshabab Al Mujahideen and yes they do receive arms and funding from abroad, but then so do all movements in the world. Whatever one thinks of the I.C.U, they were mostly 98.9% Somali movement!

 

[Cognescenti]

A superior Ethiopian force armed with 100k French rifles whooped an Italian invading force not with ''shields'' and ''spears''

History has shown a small well trained Somali army can easily cut up the much larger Ethiopian army if foreign actors stayed out of the conflict.

Then go get them and quit complaining. Next step Addis Ababa

 

[YusufNoor]

A superior Ethiopian force armed with 100k French rifles whooped an Italian invading force not with ''shields'' and ''spears''

History has shown a small well trained Somali army can easily cut up the much larger Ethiopian army if foreign actors stayed out of the conflict.

JazakAllah Khayr Brother. now i can update my wife on this! :thankyou:

after i read it all...:-[

 

[Qingu]

quote:Calling the Islamic Courts "grassroots" is like calling American-led Iraqi coalition forces "grassroots." They are heavily financed and apparently armed from abroad, and many foreign fighters make up their ranks.


No offense, but your comparison is totally ridiclous. Non Somali Muslims fought in Somalia, but they numbered only into their hundreds give or take. Thousands is way over estimated and that is propogana by the Ethiopians. They even claimed that they had killed thousands of Eritrean Christian whom were help the I.C.U.When the I.C.U was on the run, most of the foreign fighters were either died, fled to the Kenyan border or are still hiding in Somalia. Even the foreigners they captured were either students that went to check out Somalia and Somalis who just happen to have foreign passports. Furthermore, the Ethiopians checked the entire countryside and found nothing. They would love to catch thousands of foreigners in Somalia, but there are none! Somalia is not like Afghanistan and many foreigners can't hide there.Every clan has a specefic territory!The Bulk of the Resistance is know made up of Somali subclans and Islamist fighters who belong to the Alshabab Al Mujahideen and yes they do receive arms and funding from abroad, but then so do all movements in the world. Whatever one thinks of the I.C.U, they were mostly 98.9% Somali movement!

I doubt your statistic, but even if this were the case: what exactly is your point? It's okay for a minority group to violently take over a country and impose its unpopular ideology if they're "grassroots," but not if they're "foreign?" (Nevermind the millions of people foreign Muslims forcibly conquered as the caliphate expanded....)

I just don't see how Muslims can support the ICU and oppose the American-led invasion of Iraq, or Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza—unless, of course, you're willing to admit you have a double standard in that you're okay with Muslims violently taking over countries and imposing their ideologies, but not Jews or secularists. For my part, I oppose anyone violently taking over any country or imposing unpopular ideologies.

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

Wow, guys, just cos these people say the are mujahideen, does not mean they are, if only you had family living there you would know..

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Then go get them

Cognescenti,Cognescenti,Cognescenti there is no compulsory or a specific 'rule' that says you have to 'reply' to 'my' posts, it really doesn't matter to me, so next time just remember if you don't feel like it..don't submit! cause that reply reeks of laziness:sunny:

Snakelegs&YusufNoor welcome brothers!

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

@Qingu


American Invasion of Iraq= Illegal foreign invasion
Secular Jewish takeover of Palestine= illegal settlements built by Europeans!

Islamic Courts= Grassroots Somali movement that led a revolt against the Warlods who controlled Somalia for the past 17 years!

Secondly, how is Islamic Courts attempting to impose " unpopular ideology"?

You have statistics to show what percentage of Somalis are against them or not?

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

I doubt your statistic, but even if this were the case: what exactly is your point? It's okay for a minority group to violently take over a country and impose its unpopular ideology if they're "grassroots," but not if they're "foreign?" (Nevermind the millions of people foreign Muslims forcibly conquered as the caliphate expanded....)

I just don't see how Muslims can support the ICU and oppose the American-led invasion of Iraq, or Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza—unless, of course, you're willing to admit you have a double standard in that you're okay with Muslims violently taking over countries and imposing their ideologies, but not Jews or secularists. For my part, I oppose anyone violently taking over any country or imposing unpopular ideologies.

Qingu process this; citizens of a country in turmoil have the right to depose/fight/counter/topple the regime/individuals responsible for the conflict or those fueling it. They have the right to restore order when those who should be enforcing it are bickering amongst themselves especially when it's a 'decade and a half'' of bickering. They have the right to protect themselves and those who wish to be protected by them

Your analogy with the foreign invasion of Iraq and the Islamic revolution of Somalia is illogical. If the Coalition forces had trained 200k Iraqi soldiers (who are legally still citizens of Iraq) and they had toppled Saddam then this analogy would make sense since it's their country but this didn't happen it was a foreign force that toppled him and it's a foreign force that's currently occupying Iraq. In Somalia after a decade of screw ups by successive Transitional governments a movement developed from the ground up which successfully restored order ,revitalized and rehabilitated both infrastructure and civilians( see the article by Cedric Barnes & Harun Hassan in this topic)

If you still cannot see why the ordinary people would support a group that actually uplifted the living conditions of the average individual in Somalia and were their fellow country men and women but today with tooth and nail opposse a foreign force who do not have their best wishes at heart but instead are serving foreign interests then my friend this discussion ends here since i'm not interested in ad nauseum debates

 

[Cognescenti]

Cognescenti,Cognescenti,Cognescenti there is no compulsory or a specific 'rule' that says you have to 'reply' to 'my' posts, it really doesn't matter to me, so next time just remember if you don't feel like it..don't submit! cause that reply reeks of laziness:sunny:

Well, you may say lazy. I say concise. It is true that Somalia has been messed up by foreign interventions (Italy, Russia). Now, there is again a "foreign" intervention (jihadi money).

That they IC helped to subdue the cynnical warlords is a good thing, but if they really were such a populist organization how is they are unable to resist the barely capable Ethiopian army.

 

[Qingu]

@Qingu


American Invasion of Iraq= Illegal foreign invasion
Secular Jewish takeover of Palestine= illegal settlements built by Europeans!

Islamic Courts= Grassroots Somali movement that led a revolt against the Warlods who controlled Somalia for the past 17 years!

Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?

Secondly, how is Islamic Courts attempting to impose " unpopular ideology"?

You have statistics to show what percentage of Somalis are against them or not?

Statistics? From Somalia? Ha!

If their ideology wasn't unpopular, they wouldn't need to use violence, assassinations, and open warfare to impose it.

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?


Statistics? From Somalia? Ha!

If their ideology wasn't unpopular, they wouldn't need to use violence, assassinations, and open warfare to impose it.

Qingu

You do not know how much I agree with you, these people are not what they claim, they said ALL who migrated are disbelievers and that all of us have betrayed our religion, Lies, all lies. They are Hypocrites may Allah Destroy them Ameen!

 

[Omar_Mukhtar]

quote:Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?

you need to ask yourself that because I fail to see what this has to do with the discussion! You are going around in circles, next you might start talking about the Roman of invasion by Hannibal! So let us keep it simple!

1. I.C.U is/was a popular Somali organisation that received support from a large number of Somalis! ALbeit not ALL Somalis!Nevertheless, you are just being biased when you say " deeply" unpopular" Hell yeah, sum ppl hated them, but again not all hated. So there goes your deeply unpopular theory out of the window!

2. Your next contention is why did they need to use violence as means of taking power? Well again mate that is very simple, Somalia was/is an poor African country run by armed warlords and other neighbouring countries.Thus everybody is armed and ppl come to power via the gun and the bullet. This isn't Sweden or SWitzerland!

3. The second reason is simple, the reason they ae fighting is because Somalia is under occupation! Occupation breeds resistance!

If you can prove to me that:

1. I.C.U were deeply unpopular
2. They were mainly foreigners
3. And their war is similar to the foreign intervention of Iraq and Afghanistan go ahead!

Otherwise, let us discuss the Muslim invasion of North Africa

 

[Qingu]

quote:Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?

you need to ask yourself that because I fail to see what this has to do with the discussion! You are going around in circles, next you might start talking about the Roman of invasion by Hannibal! So let us keep it simple!

Someone had said any invasion and occupation by a foreign power was wrong. I then asked if he thought the many Muslim invasions and occupations throughout history was wrong.

you are just being biased when you say " deeply" unpopular"

"Deeply"? I checked my posts and never said that. Please do not put words into my mouth.

I only judged the level of their unpopularity based on their need to use violence to come to power. Popular movements do not require violence to take control.

2. Your next contention is why did they need to use violence as means of taking power? Well again mate that is very simple, Somalia was/is an poor African country run by armed warlords and other neighbouring countries.Thus everybody is armed and ppl come to power via the gun and the bullet. This isn't Sweden or SWitzerland!

So you agree that a lot of other people (who also have guns) oppose the ICU?

3. The second reason is simple, the reason they ae fighting is because Somalia is under occupation! Occupation breeds resistance!

First of all, the ICU came to power before Ethiopia occupied.

Secondly, Ethiopia only occupied Somalia after the ICU essentially declared war on them.

Generally, when you start a war with someone and you lose, badly, you get occupied.

If you can prove to me that:

1. I.C.U were deeply unpopular
2. They were mainly foreigners
3. And their war is similar to the foreign intervention of Iraq and Afghanistan go ahead!

Since I never made any of those claims, I fail to see what bearing this would have on our discussion.

Otherwise, let us discuss the Muslim invasion of North Africa

Let's. The Muslims invaded North Africa to spread their ideology, much like the Americans recently invaded Iraq. Let's say you were living in North Africa in the 900's AD. Would you support a resistance group of native north African polytheists fighting against their Muslim occupiers?

After all, you seem to be saying that resistance is always okay if your country is being occupied.

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

Man, everyone keeps talking about this ICU, they only want,to control the country they do not care about any of its people, they may say they are for the muslim unition, however, they too are clan based, and most of the people who support them are people who:

A: Are siding with them because they are FOR clan domination.
Beople who want to destroy somalia, (Eritrea)
Coeple Ignorant of the situation of somalia( mind you, this 'ICU' is VERY evil why?

let me ask you a question, would you swear in the name of Allah, that all of those who fled the country by the mercy of Allah, have (Astagfirullah for typing this but i have to expose the evil).

URINATED ON THE QURAN??

That's what they said and SWORE ON , and check this out, their own families and kids are in the US, while they lead a the war with kids( who are FORCED to do it) who arent even their own, bottom line....THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL !

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Someone had said any invasion and occupation by a foreign power was wrong. I then asked if he thought the many Muslim invasions and occupations throughout history was wrong.

Which age do you live in? The age of Empires is over, today there are supposed to be International rules where members of the ''UN'' cannot and are not ''allowed'' to invade another sovereign country

I only judged the level of their unpopularity based on their need to use violence to come to power. Popular movements do not require violence to take control.

The American revolution involved violence yet to call that movement a unpopular one because of their use of rifles makes you a naive individual who lives in a non realistic world

Secondly, Ethiopia only occupied Somalia after the ICU essentially declared war on them.

Liar! they were allready present in Baidoa claiming to protect a fantasy Somali government so again please educate yourself on this conflict you look ignorant when you make those type of comments

Generally, when you start a war with someone and you lose, badly, you get occupied.

They never declared war on Ethiopia before there incursion into Somalia and when Ethiopian soldiers entered Baidoa the ICU called for their expulsion

"I am calling on the Somali people to wage a holy war against Ethiopians in Baidoa-Source

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Man, everyone keeps talking about this ICU, they only want,to control the country they do not care about any of its people,

And this government with it's foreign mercenaries does? The International community does?

Who destroyed the Warlords? Fake government? No!! the Islamic courts?? YES!!!

who re-opened the airports after a decade? the fake government? NO!! The Islamic courts? YES!! see for yourself: Story

Who re-opened the country's seaports after a decade? the fake government?? NO!! The Islamic courts?? YES!! see for yourself:Story

Who destroyed the country's piracy problem? the fake government?? NO!! (piracy is again brisk business off the Somali coast) The Islamic courts? YES!! see for yourself:Story

Who made it possible for Women,children and Elders to walk safely in their neighbourhoods? the fake Government?? NO!! (they are shelling whole residential areas with heavy artillery!!) The Islamic courts?? Yes!!!! see for yourself: Story

Who curbed the destruction of Somalia's Trees and wildlife? the fake government?? NO!! The Islamic courts?? YES!! see for yourself:Story

They have done more for the Somali people in a period of 6 months than 14 transitional governments have done in a decade so please brother do not spread lies for i will expose your agenda for what it really is.

If you continue with these lies accompanied by neither sources or references i will call for a moderator to intervene against this sinister slander

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

Well, you may say lazy. I say concise.

Lazy lazy lazy:sunny:

That they IC helped to subdue the cynnical warlords is a good thing, but if they really were such a populist organization how is they are unable to resist the barely capable Ethiopian army.

The warlords didn't controll a 'standing army' or anything close, the Islamic courts themselves were militaristically speaking only in their infancy if Somalia's standing army was still intact todays reality would have been different.

 

[Qingu]

The warlords didn't controll a 'standing army' or anything close, the Islamic courts themselves were militaristically speaking only in their infancy if Somalia's standing army was still intact todays reality would have been different.

How would it have been different? Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs and resorting to suicide tactics, they would have somehow been able to conquer Ethiopia's American-trained and financed army?

As far as I can tell, Muslims have not been able to win any wars without relying on one superpower or another. What would have been different about Somalia?

 

[AHMED_GUREY]

How would it have been different?

A Somalia with it's standing army means Ethiopia will stay firmly in it's borders and they would never dream about making the same adventures you see today. Knowing 50% of Ethiopia's population would be manipulated by the Somali government into rebellion that's a fact!

Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs and resorting to suicide tactics, they would have somehow been able to conquer Ethiopia's American-trained and financed army? As far as I can tell, Muslims have not been able to win any wars without relying on one superpower or another. What would have been different about Somalia?

So invading a country's who army has disintergrated should be viewed as 'bravery'? and not simple cowardice which it really is, is that what your saying? They defeated a small Islamic militia supported by locals and ranked by young men who neither had the military training or equipment of an Army there only wish was to bring back stability and they succeeded in bringing down the warlords defeating a national army is not realistic

fact is Somalia invaded 'Ethiopia with a Standing army' and completly destroyed it and occupied them for a year and there was nothing they could do about it, untill Soviet soldiers turned the tide for them so that's a big difference!