The Americanization of Islam

[czgibson]

Greetings,

You and your larkin matter very little in my life..

Well thanks. I was trying to be sympathetic there. Never mind.

I didn't know hate crimes against homos were committed mostly by Muslims?

And where did I say that? Don't tell me you're building yet another straw man for me for Christmas?

Thanks for teaching me.. funny the other day here in the subways, it was a Muslim that jumped to the aid of a bunch of Jewish kids being assulted for being cheeky!

Well done them. That's wonderful news. It doesn't change the fact that many Muslims actively and openly hate different groups of people, and say their religion gives them justification for doing so.

13 isn't considered a child

Apart from in most legal systems around the world. I don't see the relevance of this anyway.

least of which physiologically, I have personally assisted in the delivery of a 12 year old female

Well done you!

What are you getting at here?

Again Islam defines our morality not your judgement!

Of course. I'm simply pointing out what many would consider to be the rational alternative. I don't expect you to agree with me.

Noun: atheism 'eythee`izum
The doctrine or belief that there is no God
- godlessness

really for a man whose livlihood is teaching english, surely you can look up the definition of a word?

Of course, but doing so doesn't help your argument. A doctrine can consist of a single proposition, as atheism does. Check here if you don't believe me.

Yes the possibilities are quite organized and have the same reponses, much like a religious doctrine!

That's your observation, which probably depends on how you understand the word 'religion'. Different dictionaries differ on this, as it's a notoriously difficult thing to define.

great.. at least we can get an honest assessment out of you!

I'm not sure what that's meant to mean, but thank you anyway.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,

Well thanks. I was trying to be sympathetic there. Never mind.

I suppose it is one of those things you throw out there, where the reader is left to decipher what s/he may?!
Tone of voice and body language were missing, you'll forgive me, it sounded errr read a little dry!

And where did I say that? Don't tell me you're building yet another straw man for me for Christmas?

Go read what you wrote, there is no sense in changing what you meant this far along in the 'debate'

Well done them. That's wonderful news. It doesn't change the fact that many Muslims actively and openly hate different groups of people, and say their religion gives them justification for doing so.

And again I wonder what wonderful statistical experimental trial you have run to conclude what you have of 'many muslims' .

Apart from in most legal systems around the world. I don't see the relevance of this anyway.

its relevance falls in what you deem 'harmful due to age' but actually isn't!

Well done you!

seeking your approval gives a 50% boost to my ego ^o)

What are you getting at here?

read my reply two sentences ago!

Of course. I'm simply pointing out what many would consider to be the rational alternative. I don't expect you to agree with me.

A rational alternative to what exactly? opinions aren't a rational alternative!

Of course, but doing so doesn't help your argument. A doctrine can consist of a single proposition, as atheism does. Check here if you don't believe me.

So many dictionaries so little time. I think yours just kicked the a$$ of the one I used!

That's your observation, which probably depends on how you understand the word 'religion'. Different dictionaries differ on this, as it's a notoriously difficult thing to define.

It is my observation based exclusively on atheism as an entity and in its organizational sense, not in its lack of belief in a divine, but based on the tenets that many of its members peddle with zeal!


cheers!

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I suppose it is one of those things you throw out there, where the reader is left to decipher what s/he may?!
Tone of voice and body language were missing, you'll forgive me, it sounded errr read a little dry!

I aim to encourage thinking. Sorry you didn't get it.

Go read what you wrote, there is no sense in changing what you meant this far along in the 'debate'

Done.

Did I state that most hate crimes against gay people are committed by Muslims? No.

Did I imply this? No.

Do I believe this? No.

You need to stop making things up, I think.

And again I wonder what wonderful statistical experimental trial you have run to conclude what you have of 'many muslims' .

My test group would be the people I see on this forum, plus the 200 or so Muslims I've met and / or taught in real life. And, let's not forget, our original poster, who does little to conceal their hatred.

its relevance falls in what you deem 'harmful due to age' but actually isn't!

I don't remember mentioning age. You really shouldn't create straw men in a debate, as I'm sure has been pointed out to you many times before.

A rational alternative to what exactly?

A rational alternative to Islam, obviously.

opinions aren't a rational alternative!

Opinions based on a thorough study of ethics are about as rational as any any statement on ethics can be. Certainly far more rational than accepting an authority statement on no evidence.

So many dictionaries so little time. I think yours just kicked the a$$ of the one I used!

I realise English isn't your first language, so you can certainly be forgiven for slips like that.

It is my observation based exclusively on atheism as an entity and in its organizational sense, not in its lack of belief in a divine, but based on the tenets that many of its members peddle with zeal!

Is atheism organised? That's news to me.

What tenets? There is only one exclusively atheist tenet, and you know exactly what it is.

Zealous atheists do exist, though, of course. We can all get a bit zealous from time to time, whatever we believe. It's because we all think we have the truth, and it's a human weakness to want to be right all the time.

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,
I aim to encourage thinking. Sorry you didn't get it.

Done.

it is disappointing indeed to find you a failure on many different facets!

Did I state that most hate crimes against gay people are committed by Muslims? No.

Did I imply this? No.

Do I believe this? No.

You need to stop making things up, I think.

what are your objections then by people hating 'homosexuality'.. hate in and of itself is a useless emotion unless one acts on it... Thus, I fail to see whether or not an individual a 'muslim' hates the act or the 'acting upon' is of any significance save what it denotes later down the line?

My test group would be the people I see on this forum, plus the 200 or so Muslims I've met and / or taught in real life. And, let's not forget, our original poster, who does little to conceal their hatred.

I am afraid one lonely man and his sample mean doesn't give much reliability--no confidence interval for anyone logical/rational human being to endorse or stand by!

I don't remember mentioning age. You really shouldn't create straw men in a debate, as I'm sure has been pointed out to you many times before.

let me refresh you then,
My judgement is based on how much harm an activity causes. I believe that child abuse causes harm, while homosexuality does not.
I assume that you go by the societal definition of a 'child' which deems a 12 year old a minor a child, and I have already mentioned to you cases where not only do 'children' consent but are in fact emancipated for acts you would otherwise deem harmful, you'd imprison some pederast priest for sodomy that a 13 year old might have consented to, leaving me very confused as to how you (an atheist defines morality) and fights for new laws with such zeal-- why is it ok by society's definition for a pederast to be imprisoned and shunned while a homosexual protected under civil liberties act?

A rational alternative to Islam, obviously.

I haven't seen a rational alternative to Islam, obviously!

Opinions based on a thorough study of ethics are about as rational as any any statement on ethics can be. Certainly far more rational than accepting an authority statement on no evidence.

Where is the study of ethics you ran? I think you are just bored and want to take us along for the ride?

I realise English isn't your first language, so you can certainly be forgiven for slips like that.

& What a shame for English to be your first language and your livlihood and practically all your posts run along the lines of drunkard's confabulation!

Is atheism organised? That's news to me.

You should read more by your fellow 'humanists' zoro, dawkin et al.

What tenets? There is only one exclusively atheist tenet, and you know exactly what it is.

what is it? the instant gratification, satisfying the desires of your lower self, and publically promoting it under the guise of rational thought?

Zealous atheists do exist, though, of course. We can all get a bit zealous from time to time, whatever we believe. It's because we all think we have the truth, and it's a human weakness to want to be right all the time.
Peace

A zealous wouldn't exist if there weren't a doctrine a 'philosophical system' for him/her to believe in!

I hope we can stop wasting each other' time, unless of course you really missed me and starved for some useless debates?

cheers...

 

[Isambard]

I am afraid that is a little unintelligible, and I pride myself of being able decrypt even morse code... if another member, Muslim or otherwise can understand this by all means take the stage!

Sorry about that. Forgot to put "say" in my sentence. Ive corrected that incase anyone else has problems understanding a sentence when a two letter word is accidently omitted.

Oh thank God for your presence here.. the army of leningrad can learn a thing or two from your observance of forum rules

Just trying to hlp out the mods. Lordy knows they have a tough enough job as it is.:statisfie

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I hope we can stop wasting each other' time, unless of course you really missed me and starved for some useless debates?

The truth is that I continue to be amazed at how rude and irrational one person can be. Sorry, PA, but you're one in a million - your posts are just hilarious!

Peace

 

[جوري]

Greetings,


The truth is that I continue to be amazed at how rude and irrational one person can be. Sorry, PA, but you're one in a million - your posts are just hilarious!

Peace

Feelings I have always found to be mutual sob7an Allah. I am glad we can afford you some amusement on your day off though, I wish I can say on my part it was time well spent.

And, I have always fancied myself one in six billion. A true unique creation of Allah SWT distinguished from all others, as are all of his creations... Although, I can understand the woes of an atheist having a difficult time reconciling the difference between himself and a proglottid.. you work on that while we continue to be Muslim insha'Allah!

cheers!

 

[Amadeus85]

I dont think that 3 major monotheistic religions hate gays and lesbians, but all 3 monotheistic religions condemnd homosexual actions as not natural and sinful.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I dont think that 3 major monotheistic religions hate gays and lesbians, but all 3 monotheistic religions condemnd homosexual actions as not natural and sinful.

Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Some religious people use their religion to justify hating different groups of people. Of course, the ideal is to hate the sin and love the sinner, but it's amazing how often that isn't adhered to in practice.

Take a look at these nutters, for example. They think they are good Christians:

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

Peace

 

[syed saboor]

Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy. Finally, as a heterosexual Muslim man I will be able to live in peace.

 

[Gator]

Not sure why, but one aspect of this disgusting event that has been under reported is that a Muslim New Yorker jumped to the defense of the Jews being attacked by the bigots. I think this deserves mention since it is in sharp contrast to the intolerance shown by the gang of bigots. From International CNN (which is MUCH better than American CNN!):

Hey PA, Just for the record, this was highly covered in the States. Don't know why it would be downplayed in Britian (if that's where you are).

Thanks.

(Thread Link - http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/54759-muslim-saves-jew-subway-beating.html)

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Let's just a theocratic Islamic state, and we will all be happy.

I think it would be great if a state existed which everyone agreed was fully Islamic. I would rather stick pins in my eyes than live in it, though.

Peace

 

[Amadeus85]

Not all Christian churches condemn homosexuality. Nor do all branches of Judaism/Islam. I don't think their stance is compliant with the books they believe in, but nevertheless...
Christians say we are to hate the sin not the sinners. I don't know what's the islamic/jewish ruling on this matter.

Ok so i will say that all those christian churches and judaistic branches which treat Bible seriously condemn homosexual acts, not to mention legalizing adoptions of kids for gays and lesbians.

 

[Gator]

OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Ok so i will say that all those christian churches and judaistic branches which treat Bible seriously condemn homosexual acts, not to mention legalizing adoptions of kids for gays and lesbians.

I agree. One doesn't have to be a Bible scholar to know it's a rather conservative peace of literature.

 

[Amadeus85]

OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.

Well, forgetting for a moment what Catholic Church says about it, me as an average young man must say that man was created to have physical love with woman. So two men having physical love is out of norm. I mean, it shouldnt lead people to prision, but it shouldnt be praised as an alernative and wonderful way of life (since we know from biology and human anathomy that gay sex is damaging for health). And two gays (or lesbians) adopting child is completely shocking for me.

 

[جوري]

OK, at this point I have to ask a question for everyone who condemns homosexuality.

Do you feel it in your heart that homosexuality is wrong or are you simply basing it on you religious teachings?

Thanks.

peace Gator

As an individual irregardless of religion, I know that homosexuality is an act of sexual deviance, and I find no difference between it and the afore mentioned acts of sexual deviance, the state makes some of those acts punishable by law, yet grants civil liberties to others (homophillia), I suppose the state defines for some where to draw the line, that is not satisfactory to me.

I have personally no problems with homosexuals so long as they don't flaunt it in everyone's face. I simply don't want to know what you do in your bedroom, to define yourself as a homo, is to bring your sexuality front and center stage.

Now that said, I don't think it ok to hammer completely deviant acts as normal and for the rest of us to get used to it, in the form of TV shows or books for children. I have actually posted stats from uptodate somewhere on this forum of how much sex and violence teens encounter on TV and how it affects them. If you think Madonna and spears kissing on public TV has no impact on young impressionable teens, think again.. It does, and even if you censor what they watch, they will get you in school with books like my two moms. ... maybe a few decades down the line it will be my plastinated dead uncle, or father phil and little John.. or the two brothers.. you see someone argued in a German court recently about an incestuous relationship between brother and sister which yielded some children with 'who are we to define a family unit?'

There was a necrophiliac in NJ not so long ago, who was captured by the cops, I don't know if they have referred him to a psych. ward or if he is just to do time for it. I do believe that he has an attraction to deceased people.. I also believe that pederasts hold an attraction to the boys they engage sexually. Can they help it? I think the same way you or anyone can help not act on a lustful attraction to a random person they have met or work with and develop strong feeling for so can they. There is a difference between love and lust. You can perfectly love someone and not jump in bed with them agreed?

Homosexuals conjure up very unpleasent images in ones mind, well my mind anyhow sometimes to the point of sickness.. this isn't an ideaology for the drumbeaters who make the farcical comparison between religion and sex. This is a guy bending for another over some chair. You can't honestly expect that people should find that acceptable just because it is en vogue. And that is really what a homosexual is by definition, Someone who practices homosexuality, I don't see room for anything else to be a topic of discussion or a misunderstanding or need for tolerance. Do you go around advertising you are a hetrosexual? That automatically reduces you to a sexual act. I see no other why to think of homosexuals other than by having an image of a lewed sexual act!

Lastly given that religion defines morality for me, makes the act all the more repugnant. If you love Goodness, then you'll refrain from grazing in fields that are questionable. yielding in to the lusts of the lower self would surely fall under that category!

cheers

 

[Amadeus85]

But of course i forgot to add that any acts of violence against homosexuals only because they are homosexuals shouldn't happen. I hope that it's clear. Not to mention killing gays or lesbians only for their sexual behaviour which is simple cruelty and murder for me.

 

[BlackMamba]

What Muslims allow homosexuality?! They then cannot call themselves Muslims. This is the punishment for them.
"The punishment of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; (The Noble Quran, 5:33)"