The Americanization of Islam

Keltoi said:
Perhaps a better word would be secularization of Islam.
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PurestAmbrosia said:
^^^ bingo!
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I too think you've hit the nail on the head, Keltoi.


Now, the follow-up question is, who is it that is responsible for the secularization of Islam?


Flip Wilson used to make a fortune shouting, "The Devil made me do it!!" Of course, it got a big laugh because blaming someone else for your own failings, even if it is the devil himself tempting you, is the height of immaturity and irresponsibility. It is a comic farce to lay blame on others for your own poor choices. It is to say that I am not a competant person, and need to be protected from myself.

Surely Islam understands that if there is a secularization of Islam taking place, that the responsibility lies with those who make those choices within Islam, not the world outside Islam.
 
A hand can't clap alone it takes a little effort from many sides.. but you are right, I mainly blame Muslims, especially middle easterners, which by the way is where I am from originally.. when I go to my mother country sometimes I am just utterly shocked and appalled.. but it doesn't change the fact that America has bought a couple of chanels there and brain washes youths freely (of course they have the option to turn the TV off) so it is a two way effort.. and that is no reflection on Americans, as I tend to think many american young are brain washed as well..while their parents grieve over where they went wrong...

It is a rites of passage to be brainwashed me thinkus?...

on a different note.. almost a complete digression. I feel rod serling wasn't only conscious of this but made it the subject of many of his 'twilight zone episodes' most notably "Number 12 Looks Just Like You" and "The Howling Man"
he was a man ahead of his times.. I wonder if others have picked up on it? especially that he wrote many of them himself..

anyhow my two cents..
 
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I know you don't listen to music, but I still remember the insight found in this old Harry Chapin song from my youth:

My child arrived just the other day
He came to the world in the usual way
But there were planes to catch and bills to pay
He learned to walk while I was away
And he was talkin' 'fore I knew it, and as he grew
He'd say "I'm gonna be like you dad
You know I'm gonna be like you"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home dad?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

My son turned ten just the other day
He said, "Thanks for the ball, Dad, come on let's play
Can you teach me to throw", I said "Not today
I got a lot to do", he said, "That's ok"
And he walked away but his smile never dimmed
And said, "I'm gonna be like him, yeah
You know I'm gonna be like him"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

Well, he came home from college just the other day
So much like a man I just had to say
"Son, I'm proud of you, can you sit for a while?"
He shook his head and said with a smile
"What I'd really like, Dad, is to borrow the car keys
See you later, can I have them please?"

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then

I've long since retired, my son's moved away
I called him up just the other day
I said, "I'd like to see you if you don't mind"
He said, "I'd love to, Dad, if I can find the time
You see my new job's a hassle and kids have the flu
But it's sure nice talking to you, Dad
It's been sure nice talking to you"

And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me
He'd grown up just like me
My boy was just like me

And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon
Little boy blue and the man on the moon
When you comin' home son?
I don't know when, but we'll get together then son
You know we'll have a good time then
​
 
I am quite familiar with that song actually..
I have lost my taste for music only recently and not quite fully.. still like some 'folk' songs, I don't find them much different than nasheeds (very clean)...

It doesn't change the fact that that 'condy' had a vision for 'a new middle east' and that many are working hard toward realizing that goal..
can't fault civilians for their corrupt govt. can only blame them if they take the bait and fall prey!

peace!
 
Grace Seeker said:
Now, the follow-up question is, who is it that is responsible for the secularization of Islam?
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My opinion is that only 15% of people really take religion seriously (and 5% are hardcore).

The 80% of people may do it because its their culture and yeah they believe it, but they just want to get on with their lives as best they can. They don't have the interest to get into the details and just take cues from others.

The 80% are never going to be hardcore or even very seriously follow up on the religion. They'll do what they like to do and if the muslims are dominant they're a "muslim" and if the christians are dominant they're "christians" and if atheists are dominant they're "atheists".

The hardcore or serious versions of religions are not going to be followed by the vast majority. To reach a mass audience, everything gets watered down.

Just some thoughts (and the percentages are certainly variable).

Thanks.
 
Gator said:
My opinion is that only 15% of people really take religion seriously (and 5% are hardcore).

The 80% of people may do it because its their culture and yeah they believe it, but they just want to get on with their lives as best they can. They don't have the interest to get into the details and just take cues from others.

The 80% are never going to be hardcore or even very seriously follow up on the religion. They'll do what they like to do and if the muslims are dominant they're a "muslim" and if the christians are dominant they're "christians" and if atheists are dominant they're "atheists".

The hardcore or serious versions of religions are not going to be followed by the vast majority. To reach a mass audience, everything gets watered down.

Just some thoughts (and the percentages are certainly variable).

Thanks.
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I would say that only 10% of Americans who are Christian actually know about their own religion! I mean I know many Christians.. Including one pastors son. I asked him what the first books of the Bible is, and he has no clue! I think one problem with Christianity, is that Christians have this great love for Jesus, they pray a lot, and they do all that.. but they do not use the Bible as their source. They just have this personal relationship. Which is good, but only to an extent.

Most americans know nothing about their own religion.

I am personally very glad that Christianity and Judaism have reformed so much. But deep down, I know that Judaism is just as harsh as Islam on some issues, and Christianity looks down upon things just as much as the Judaism and Islam.(Only thankfully, most Christians do not support death to any sinner!)

If we lived under a strict shariah, I would say 90% of us Americans would be punished! whether it be by lashing because of drinking/fornication, cutting hands because of thieves, etc.. There is nooo way our culture as is can handle Islam lol. (Or radical Christianity/Judaism for that matter.)
 
lol.. you think 90% of americans are thieves and fornicators?

I don't believe Americans would be stopped from doing the things that they 'love' so long as it is not down right unlawful even by western standards, unless you pass out Kinko's invitation to a blatant extramarital orgy with wife swapping...

Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?


cheers
 
PurestAmbrosia said:
lol.. you think 90% of americans are thieves and fornicators?

I don't believe Americans would be stopped from doing the things that they 'love' so long as it is not down right unlawful even by western standards, unless you pass out Kinko's invitation to a blatant extramarital orgy with wife swapping...

Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?


cheers
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Ah, thieves, I doubt 90%... But definetely fornicators and drinkers and gambling!

Of course, fornicators=sex before marriage. I doubt many people commit adultery!
 
PurestAmbrosia said:
Europeans lived under Islamic rule for 800yrs.. It really wasn't that bad.. it was commemorated in frescos like 'the School of Athens' .. it was the age of enlightenment.. unless you know of a different history than the one recorded?
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Hello PA, this is interesting. Which parts of Europe were under Islamic rule (besides the Iberian penninsula) and when? I thought the school of athens was about the greek philosophers? Thanks.
 
are the dwellers of the 'Iberian penninsula' not considered Europeans?
the school of athens had Averroes (Ibn Rushd) in it, not just Greek philosophers
200pxAverroesColor-1.jpg


thanks for your interest..
 
Not all Iberian peninsula was occupied by the muslin invaders. There was a region in the North of the peninsula that was never conquered. And the "reconquer" by the Christian tribes or nations began from that region.
 
ricardo_sousa said:
Not all Iberian peninsula was occupied by the muslin invaders. There was a region in the North of the peninsula that was never conquered. And the "reconquer" by the Christian tribes or nations began from that region.
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:sl:
The 'Reconquista' was not actually a reconquest. Dispite being Christians, the people who organised the reconquista were not the same people that had their lands conquered in the first place, the Visigoths. It would be like Australian Aborigines forming an army and conquering the USA, then calling it a 'reconquest' because both they and the orginal people of the land were aborigines.
:w:
 
Fishman said:
:sl:
The 'Reconquista' was not actually a reconquest. Dispite being Christians, the people who organised the reconquista were not the same people that had their lands conquered in the first place, the Visigoths.
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It is called "Reconquista" (reconquest) because of the religion, not because of the people. That´s why the term "reconquest" is used. The Christians reconquer the land lost to the Muslins. Christianity regain the peninsula against Islam.

And in fact some Christians tribes run away to the north to escape the muslin invasion. But the numbers were small.
 
czgibson said:
Greetings,


I'm not suggesting that for a moment.



Hating certain groups of people is an intrinsic part of Islam, is it not?

Peace
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Of course it is. How else will one attain heaven if he does not constantly deride jews, feminists and homosexuals. Clearly the thread maker opposes all forms of deviance from true Islam especially those propagated in the books he sells.

I'm not sure why but there seems to be a very fine line between being a secularist and a fanatic, one would've thought these two groups polar opposites..
 
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I'm lost in this conversation. Are we still talking about the Americanization of Islam? How do those that object to that process feel about the suggestion that it isn't so much the Americanization of Islam, but rather a secularlization of Islam that is taking place? And that America is also being impacted by this global secularlization that is taking place in our time?
 
Grace Seeker said:
I'm lost in this conversation. Are we still talking about the Americanization of Islam? How do those that object to that process feel about the suggestion that it isn't so much the Americanization of Islam, but rather a secularlization of Islam that is taking place? And that America is also being impacted by this global secularlization that is taking place in our time?
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That is possibly the most realistic conclusion in this thread. :thumbs_up
 
Actually, this has nothing to do with this topic, but I just wanted to apologize for many of the statements I had made about Arabs. I did rethink things through and I acted in anger, and for that I am sorry to anybody who I offeneded. You can't judge everybody the same way. Please accept my sincerest apologies.

Syed Saboor
 

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