Islam and Democracy

[jd7]

One other thing I was wondering about.
It seems to me that the freedom to openly express an opinion is vital for a democracy to function properly. Voting is a form of expressing an opinion.

Is freedom of speech vital for a democracy to function properly as well?
Does Islam support freedom of speech and expression, even if the expression was deeply insulting to Islam and/or its past/present leaders?

Would the Gay Pride marches be tolerated by Islam? I am assuming the Gay Pride marches are a form of expressing an opinion.

Still wondering

 

[MTAFFI]

It never works to impose one culture's model onto another one, be it economic, political, social... But assuming democracy (as if we HAD one lol) should be foisted on which ever of the lucky nations the US happens to be "saving" at the moment is just another example of how truly stellar the US's ethnocentricity really is -- second only to it's hypocrisy.

As far as the Bhutto assassination and Al Qaeda... please. Don't you think it's the least bit convenient that we're coming up on elections, that we need an excuse to keep our dirty fingers in the Middle East, that if we end up having to occupy Pakistan (out of the kindness of our hearts of course) that we will just HAPPEN to have Iran surrounded?

Hmmm... but oh no. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Just like I was when I said the WMDs were a lie.

I agree that no ones social, economic, political or cultural model should be imposed on another. You are correct in that.

As far as the US having ethnocentricity, you may wish to think again, ethnically the US is one of the most diverse countries in the world, and because of this, the culture of the US is diverse as well, so there really isnt a place for ethnocentricism. However, I will assume you speak of American values and what is wrong with that? Does every country not think there values are better than anothers? What is your culture? Do you believe that someone elses is better than yours? IF you really wish to talk about ethnocentricism you can look straight to the M.E., if one of those rulers had the capability, you would submit to Islam, pay a non muslim tax, or die (if you were an ido worshipper).

As far as the Bhutto assasination goes all I can say to you is with that comment you officially made yourself look like a freak conspiracy theorist.. ;D And I laugh at your gullability and simple mindedness for even having the gall to type it :giggling: Dont worry though, we wont invade Pakistan, they are an ally and they also hold WMD, so they dont have much to worry about as far as an invasion goes, the thought is rather far fetched, but that is what conspiracy theories are right? Far fetched anti government nonsense, perfect for individuals like yourself.

As far as Iraq and WMD, SH publicly stated many times he had these weapons, and publicly threatened our country many times over. If you were the leader of the US and this man is widely thought to have these capabilities would you give him the chance to hand them off to some unknown terror cell that may be able to detonate such device on US soil or interests? I wouldnt... Iraq is a mistake because Saddam was a liar and Bush was to quick to finish his daddies fight.. It is a pointless war and a waste of tax paid dollars.

Some advice to you: judging by the literature that you cite, you seem no better than those you argue against, it is obviously one sided and very clearly has a specific agenda, you can gain no more reading from only this type of material than whatever was on the authors mind and if you wish to have the authors mind then you are a drone. Try reading some pro-democratic or pro-US material then look in the middle somewhere and you might be a bit more well rounded as an individual and probably more interesting to talk to. I am not saying one or the other is right, I am saying everyone has an agenda so it is always good to walk both sides of the tracks

 

[Whatsthepoint]

One other thing I was wondering about.
It seems to me that the freedom to openly express an opinion is vital for a democracy to function properly. Voting is a form of expressing an opinion.

Is freedom of speech vital for a democracy to function properly as well?
Does Islam support freedom of speech and expression, even if the expression was deeply insulting to Islam and/or its past/present leaders?

Would the Gay Pride marches be tolerated by Islam? I am assuming the Gay Pride marches are a form of expressing an opinion.

Still wondering

We all know what happened when cartoons of a certain prophet were published...:X

 

[Cognescenti]

It never works to impose one culture's model onto another one, be it economic, political, social... But assuming democracy (as if we HAD one lol) should be foisted on which ever of the lucky nations the US happens to be "saving" at the moment is just another example of how truly stellar the US's ethnocentricity really is -- second only to it's hypocrisy.

As far as the Bhutto assassination and Al Qaeda... please. Don't you think it's the least bit convenient that we're coming up on elections, that we need an excuse to keep our dirty fingers in the Middle East, that if we end up having to occupy Pakistan (out of the kindness of our hearts of course) that we will just HAPPEN to have Iran surrounded?

Hmmm... but oh no. I'm a conspiracy theorist. Just like I was when I said the WMDs were a lie.

Caroline;

You don't llike the US very much, do you? As you appear to be simultaneously living in Haiti and Kansas, why not just make the Haiti part permanent, then you won't have to use the 1st person plural pronoun when describing the US. Plus, you will have the added benefit of enjoying the great democratic freedoms of Haiti.

Democracy isn't a "cultural model", it's a system of government. We aren't trying to export cowboy hats and chili to Iraq. It does appear that the Iraqis are, at present, unable to throw off thousands of years of clan allegiances and several centuries of sectarian dvision (not to mention some resentment toward the Baathists from the Hussein era) in order to form a inclusive democracy. Oh well. Now it is about kicking AQI in the teeth. :smile:

As for your Bhutto theory....:uuh: That just doesn't hold together. Where are the US troops going to come from to occupy a country with a huge population
of what would certainly be hostile locals. Bhutto was a pro-democracy advocate. She was educated at Harvard and Oxford. I am guessing you didn'/t "go there".

 

[north_malaysian]

I don't have a real problem with polygamy. I'm sure if I want it legal, but should it become legal is should apply to both genders.

Muslims are patriarchal people..... if a woman have 4 husbands, if she had a baby ... then we have to do DNA test to see which father's name/surname should be used. Poor baby....:exhausted

Imagine if a woman has 4 husbands, and each husband has 4 wives...:skeleton:

 

[Uthman]

Greetings,

Does Islam support freedom of speech and expression, even if the expression was deeply insulting to Islam and/or its past/present leaders?

(emphasis mine)

No, it doesn't.

Regards

 

[Jayda]

self determination is more important than democracy... i think... people should govern themselves in accordance with their cultural traditions and as long as their laws are in harmony with God's laws.

 

[MTAFFI]

self determination is more important than democracy... i think... people should govern themselves in accordance with their cultural traditions and as long as their laws are in harmony with God's laws.

what if it was a country of atheists? Should they have to govern in accordance with Gods laws?

 

[Jayda]

what if it was a country of atheists? Should they have to govern in accordance with Gods laws?

si... atheists, muslims, bhuddists... ancient aztecs... their laws should be based upon God's laws... leges sine moribus vanae, laws without morals are useless.

 

[MTAFFI]

si... atheists, muslims, bhuddists... ancient aztecs... their laws should be based upon God's laws... leges sine moribus vanae, laws without morals are useless.

indeed I agree, good answer

 

[ricardo_sousa]

Greetings,

(emphasis mine)

No, it doesn't.

Regards

and that is the ultimate weakness of the "Islamic Civilization". When you can´t criticize "your" actions, then all the "system" become dogmatic and against progress. The Medieval Europe is a good example.

 

[ricardo_sousa]

Democracy is good because it can "regenerate" the leaders and political ideals and the nations "keep moving"...

 

[Uthman]

Greetings ricardo_sousa,

Thank you for your post.

and that is the ultimate weakness of the "Islamic Civilization". When you can´t criticize "your" actions, then all the "system" become dogmatic and against progress. The Medieval Europe is a good example.

That would be something I agree with with regards to man-made laws which are changed, abrogated and updated as time goes on and new situations are encountered. However, Sharia is said to come from Allah (which admittedly won't mean much to a Non-Muslim) and is therefore seen as complete and perfect.

With that in mind, Muslims would argue that progress in this sense is unnecessary as the laws from Allah are complete, universal and applicable to any time and situation. Thus, there is no concept of 'making it up as you go along' that would be present with a man-made political system.

Regards

 

[Cognescenti]

That would be something I agree with with regards to man-made laws which are changed, abrogated and updated as time goes on and new situations are encountered. However, Sharia is said to come from Allah (which admittedly won't mean much to a Non-Muslim) and is therefore seen as complete and perfect.

With that in mind, Muslims would argue that progress in this sense is unnecessary as the laws from Allah are complete, universal and applicable to any time and situation. Thus, there is no concept of 'making it up as you go along' that would be present with a man-made political system.

Regards

Osman;

I understand the concept of the divine origin of Shariah. As we have seen most recently in Sudan, however, there is the thorny problem of implementation and interpretation which often falls well short of the divine :sunny:

 

[ricardo_sousa]

However, Sharia is said to come from Allah (which admittedly won't mean much to a Non-Muslim) and is therefore seen as complete and perfect.

With that in mind, Muslims would argue that progress in this sense is unnecessary as the laws from Allah are complete, universal and applicable to any time and situation. Thus, there is no concept of 'making it up as you go along' that would be present with a man-made political system.

Regards

I know that fact and interpretation of the Sharia. But the world doesn´t stop and new situations arrive.... the Sharia rules the traffic in the streets or it was man made laws? Sharia rules the food quality standards? and so on...

So you have always a set of "man made laws", that of course, don´t contradict the Sharia, but if that can´t be "questioned", it will never "improve".

I will not even discuss some Sharia laws that clearly transform the "Islamic Civilization" (I use frequently this term to represent the muslins who want to follow the true Islam) less competitive compared to the western ones.

 

[jd7]

If this isn’t too far off topic:

Osman “That would be something I agree with [in] regards to man-made laws which are changed, abrogated and updated as time goes on and new situations are encountered. However, Shari is said to come from Allah (which admittedly won't mean much to a Non-Muslim) and is therefore seen as complete and perfect”.

It was my understanding that a number of laws that allowed the taking of slaves, and some might say abusing the female slaves, had been abrogated.

Am I wrong in my understanding?

Still wondering

 

[caroline]

are you saying the US killed Bhutto in order to able to invade Pakistan so they could surround Iran? Lol, you really are a conspiracy theorist.

Yeah, and there were WMDs too... and nukular bombs and mushroom clouds awaiting us...

If you're interested there's a lot of literature that clearly shows this kind of tactic not the least bit out of keeping with US foreign policy.

 

[caroline]

Caroline;

You don't llike the US very much, do you? As you appear to be simultaneously living in Haiti and Kansas, why not just make the Haiti part permanent, then you won't have to use the 1st person plural pronoun when describing the US. Plus, you will have the added benefit of enjoying the great democratic freedoms of Haiti.

Democracy isn't a "cultural model", it's a system of government. We aren't trying to export cowboy hats and chili to Iraq. It does appear that the Iraqis are, at present, unable to throw off thousands of years of clan allegiances and several centuries of sectarian dvision (not to mention some resentment toward the Baathists from the Hussein era) in order to form a inclusive democracy. Oh well. Now it is about kicking AQI in the teeth. :smile:

As for your Bhutto theory....:uuh: That just doesn't hold together. Where are the US troops going to come from to occupy a country with a huge population
of what would certainly be hostile locals. Bhutto was a pro-democracy advocate. She was educated at Harvard and Oxford. I am guessing you didn'/t "go there".

I don't dislike the United States. But I despise our foreign policy. And no, I did not go to Harvard but my mentor did. I'm just an economic anthropologist -- my degrees are not Ivy League. I do have a bit of reading and some experience under my belt.

As for Haiti's "democracy" -- the only truly democratically elected president they ever had has been overthrown by the US TWICE. I lived there when it happened and I saw the whole thing on the ground. I also read the "journalism" about the situation in the US media. Needless to say, what was really happening was diametrically opposed to the reports you were getting in the US.

Sorry but my information about US foreign policy doesn't come from youtube and people who think the US is being taken over by Satanic Cults. That would be a convenient cop-out though. My information comes from field experience, independent research, and years of academic study. If you think any of the actions I proposed are out of keeping with typical US foreign policy then you simply lack information.

The ad hominem attacks from various posters don't deserve a response. All I can say is that the atrocities we see happening in the world right now would not be possible without the apathy and naivety of the public.

 

[caroline]

I agree that no ones social, economic, political or cultural model should be imposed on another. You are correct in that.

As far as the US having ethnocentricity, you may wish to think again, ethnically the US is one of the most diverse countries in the world, and because of this, the culture of the US is diverse as well, so there really isnt a place for ethnocentricism. However, I will assume you speak of American values and what is wrong with that? Does every country not think there values are better than anothers? What is your culture? Do you believe that someone elses is better than yours? IF you really wish to talk about ethnocentricism you can look straight to the M.E., if one of those rulers had the capability, you would submit to Islam, pay a non muslim tax, or die (if you were an ido worshipper).

As far as the Bhutto assasination goes all I can say to you is with that comment you officially made yourself look like a freak conspiracy theorist.. ;D And I laugh at your gullability and simple mindedness for even having the gall to type it :giggling: Dont worry though, we wont invade Pakistan, they are an ally and they also hold WMD, so they dont have much to worry about as far as an invasion goes, the thought is rather far fetched, but that is what conspiracy theories are right? Far fetched anti government nonsense, perfect for individuals like yourself.

As far as Iraq and WMD, SH publicly stated many times he had these weapons, and publicly threatened our country many times over. If you were the leader of the US and this man is widely thought to have these capabilities would you give him the chance to hand them off to some unknown terror cell that may be able to detonate such device on US soil or interests? I wouldnt... Iraq is a mistake because Saddam was a liar and Bush was to quick to finish his daddies fight.. It is a pointless war and a waste of tax paid dollars.

Some advice to you: judging by the literature that you cite, you seem no better than those you argue against, it is obviously one sided and very clearly has a specific agenda, you can gain no more reading from only this type of material than whatever was on the authors mind and if you wish to have the authors mind then you are a drone. Try reading some pro-democratic or pro-US material then look in the middle somewhere and you might be a bit more well rounded as an individual and probably more interesting to talk to. I am not saying one or the other is right, I am saying everyone has an agenda so it is always good to walk both sides of the tracks

Gee, think you could have slipped a few more personal attacks in there?kay:

 

[wilberhum]

Gee, think you could have slipped a few more personal attacks in there?kay:

What do you expect when you not only buy into every conspiracy theory ever created, you make up your own. :-\