No compulsion in religion?

[jd7]

Wilberhum “But not just Islam, remember the Inquisitions?

Not to nit pick, just trying to be fair, but exactly what Christian scripture were those of the Inquisition following?

 

[جوري]

Again, not a valid comparison. You pay the same tax everyone else does (relative to wealth). Jizya is a tax paid by only one class of people, to a ruling class of people.

But I don't pay the same tax as everyone else. I don't see why I should have to pay nearly half my salary to support a harpy who got knocked up at 13, had 4 kids out of wedlock from 4 different fathers, then sues my colleagues for more to see what she can milk them for. I see a great disparity here, equal relative to wealth means nothing to me! Why should I work all my life, waste the best years studying to support immorality?

No, but I didn't say women couldn't participate in warfare, I said you would not be drafted into warfare. Do you dispute this?

You said you are a woman you'd not be drafted anyway and I say why not? there have been women worriers and gave you two examples. I don't see when/if the need for women to go on battle field out of shortage why they wouldn't although the prophet SAW forbade men from killing women in a battle field!

So? Non-zakat charity (to non-Muslims) is not obligatory. I'm not sure why you even brought this up.

Sadaqa i.e nonzakat is very important in Islam that is why I brought it up!
mentioned that many times in hadith

the query [charity] generated the following matches:

Complete Sahih Bukhari

001.002.007 001.002.024 001.002.044 001.002.047 001.002.050 001.002.054 001.003.063 001.010.501 001.010.503 001.011.629 001.012.804 001.012.810 002.015.081 002.023.383 002.023.444 002.024.491 002.024.492 002.024.494 002.024.496 002.024.497 002.024.498 002.024.500 002.024.501 002.024.502 002.024.503 002.024.504 002.024.505 002.024.506 002.024.507 002.024.508 002.024.509 002.024.510 002.024.511 002.024.516 002.024.517 002.024.518 002.024.520 002.024.521 002.024.523 002.024.524 002.024.525 002.024.529 002.024.534 002.024.540 002.024.557 002.024.562 002.024.566 002.024.567 002.024.568 002.024.569 002.024.570 002.024.571 002.024.572 002.026.765 002.026.775 002.026.776 003.027.014 003.031.119 003.031.121 003.031.156 003.031.157 003.034.271 003.034.279 003.034.280 003.036.473 003.038.511 003.041.591 003.046.715 003.046.719 003.047.750 003.047.751 003.047.752 003.047.753 003.047.763 003.047.764 003.047.772 003.047.792 003.047.798 003.047.804 003.048.843 003.050.895 004.051.002 004.051.005 004.051.007 004.051.011 004.051.019 004.051.020 004.051.022 004.051.024 004.051.026 004.051.030 004.051.031 004.051.033 004.051.034 004.051.036 004.051.037 004.052.090 004.052.125 004.052.141 004.052.160 004.052.166 004.052.191 004.052.214 004.052.215 004.052.232 004.052.246 004.052.270 004.052.272 004.052.306 004.053.325 004.053.326 004.053.328 004.056.678 004.056.708 004.056.786 004.056.793 005.057.018 005.058.273 005.059.343 005.059.367 005.059.368 005.059.430 005.059.432 005.059.509 005.059.693 005.059.738 006.060.076 006.060.190 006.060.191 006.060.300 006.060.469 006.060.471 006.060.472 006.060.473 006.060.474 006.061.543 007.062.034 007.063.202 007.063.207 007.064.271 007.064.273 007.064.281 007.065.341 007.069.513 007.069.515 007.070.563 007.070.572 008.073.012 008.073.041 008.073.051 008.073.052 008.073.110 008.073.128 008.073.156 008.073.169 008.073.185 008.073.195 008.073.236 008.074.285 008.074.314 008.075.341 008.075.384 008.076.450 008.076.459 008.076.547 008.077.602 008.078.645 008.078.670 008.078.685 008.079.699 008.079.700 008.079.701 008.079.702 008.080.718 008.080.719 008.080.720 008.080.721 008.080.722 008.080.725 008.080.743 008.082.794 008.082.798 008.082.811e 009.088.236 009.089.277 009.090.342 009.092.408 009.092.426 009.093.525y 009.093.587 009.093.603 009.093.642

Complete Sahih Muslim

001.0142 001.0149 001.0223 001.0228 001.0267 002.0432 002.0433 003.0704 003.0705 003.0707 004.1239 004.1461 004.1557 004.1778 004.2052 004.2053 005.2219 005.2223 005.2227 005.2228 005.2229 005.2230 005.2231 005.2232 005.2236 005.2239 005.2248 005.2250 005.2251 005.2252 005.2256 005.2261 005.2267 005.2273 005.2275 005.2295 006.2457 006.2463 006.2464 006.2465 009.3535 009.3589 009.3590 009.3591 009.3594 010.3764 010.3765 010.3767 010.3769 010.3777 012.3949 012.3950 012.3952 012.3954 012.3955 012.3957 013.3991 013.3997 013.4002 013.4003 013.4005 018.4271 019.4349 019.4351 019.4352 019.4354 019.4355 019.4436 019.4440 019.4441 019.4442 019.4450 020.4483 020.4513 022.4856 026.5418 030.5718 030.5728 031.5933 031.6007 031.6133 032.6264 032.6362 032.6382 034.6466 034.6467 037.6670 041.6914 042.7061 042.7063 042.7078 042.7112

Partial Sunan Abu Dawud

001.0059 003.0807 008.1499 014.2707 015.2824 017.2860 017.2875 023.3550 027.3740
and this many times in the Quran
The query [charity] generated the following matches:

Translations of the Qur'an

002.043 002.083 002.110 002.177 002.215 002.263 002.264 002.267 002.270 002.271 002.273 002.274 002.276 002.277 002.280 004.077 004.092 004.114 004.162 005.012 005.045 005.055 007.156 009.005 009.011 009.018 009.071 009.075 009.079 009.104 012.088 014.031 019.031 019.055 021.073 022.035 022.041 022.078 023.004 023.060 024.037 024.056 027.003 028.054 030.039 031.004 032.016 033.033 033.035 035.029 041.007 057.007 057.018 058.012 058.013 063.010 064.016 073.020 075.031 092.005 098.005

I believe that should confer an honorable mention as it is one of the pillars of Islam!

Dhimmis could dip into the caliphate's coffers to finance their businesses? Support for this claim, please?

There are tons of ahadith and books on the rights of dhimmis in an islamic state here is one about dhmmis cheating Muslims out of their property and getting away with it.

2523. It is related from 'Abdullah said that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Whoever swears an oath in which he lies in order to take the property of a Muslim by it, will meet Allah with anger covering him." He said that al-Ash'ath ibn Qays said, "By Allah, that was about me. There was some land that was between me and a Jewish man, and he disavowed me, so I took him to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked me, 'Do you have a clear proof?' I said, 'No.' He said to the Jew, 'Swear.' I said, 'Messenger of Allah, then he will swear and take away my property.' Then Allah Almighty revealed, 'Those who sell Allah's contract and their own oaths for a paltry price, such people will have no portion in the Next World ....' (3:77)"

You're going to have to elaborate on how this story means dhimmis were legally allowed to own weapons under the caliphate.

best you purchase a book if truly interested in the topic?
here is a quick overview

• The Rights of Non-Muslims in Society:
  
• Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is among the most prominent Islamic figures who expressed early interest in the issue of the rights of non-Muslims in Muslim societies. Al-Qaradawi’s views on this topic are particularly important because of his academic and scholarly background, which indicates that his thoughts are directly an extension of jurisprudential proofs.
  
• Following are the most important rights deduced by Al-Qaradawi from his studies of religious texts and scholarly commentaries, from his important book on the subject Ghayr al-Muslmein fi el-Mujtama` al-Islami; Wahbah Pub., Cairo, 1997. This review is based on this work.
  
• The Right of Protection
  
• In Islam, the primary right of the People of the Book is to be protected and safeguarded against any foreign aggression, and Muslims are compelled to protect them in the event such a transgression falls against them. Al-Qaradawi bases his standpoint about this on jurisprudential texts and the position of Imam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) while speaking to Qultoo Shah—a Tartar—regarding the freeing of prisoners of war (POWs). Qultoo Shah agreed to set Muslim POWs free upon Ibn Taymiah’s request; however, the latter insisted that Christian POWs be released with the Muslims, which was what happened in the end. This stand by IbnTaymiyah reflects the perspective of jurisprudence on the subject of the right to external protection.
  
• The Muslim state must also defend minorities against internal injustice or oppression, such that they cannot be subject to any form of wrongdoing by the state or its sponsors; and overlapping evidence from the Qur’an and the Sunnah clearly prohibits any sort of injustice against noncombatant non-Muslims living peacefully within a Muslim state. To this effect, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was reported to have said, “He who unfairly treats a non-Muslim who keeps a peace treaty with Muslims, or undermines his rights, or burdens him beyond his capacity, or takes something from him without his consent; then I am his opponent on the Day of Judgment” (Abu Dawud and Al-Bayhaqi). He (peace and blessings be upon him) is also reported to have said, “He who harms a non-Muslim who keeps a peace treaty with Muslims has harmed me, and he who harms me has harmed Allah” (At-Tabarani in Al-Awsat with a good chain of transmission).
  
• Not only was this the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) on the issue, but the Rightly Guided Caliphs also practiced this, with several authentic incidents to this effect reported by `Umar ibn Al-Khattab and `Ali ibn Abi Talib.
  
• Types of Protection
  
• Protection of body and blood. Al-Qaradawi asserts the consensus among scholars to protect the blood of non-Muslim minorities living within a Muslim state, and he explains that violating their blood is considered one of the gravest of sins. This is due to the hadith by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him): “He who kills a non-Muslim who keeps a peace treaty with the Muslims will not smell the scent of Heaven, though its scent can be traced to as far as a march of 40 years” (Imam Ahmad and Al-Bukhari in Al-Jizyah, among others).
  
• Although scholars have differed over the issue of exchanging the life of a Muslim for that of a Dhimmi (a noncombatant non-Muslim who keeps a peace treaty with the Muslims and lives within a Muslim society), yet Al-Qaradawi sides with the opinion that says a Muslim can be killed if he wrongfully murders a Dhimmi with no right. He founds his view on this matter on texts from the Qur’an and the Sunnah that underline the principle of retribution and reprisal (qisaas).
  
• This was also the view endorsed and exercised by the Ottoman caliphate in all the regions and provinces falling under its jurisdiction for centuries, until the Muslim empire fell prey to its enemies and was knocked down.
  
• Protection of Money and Property. This principle has been unanimously agreed upon among all Muslims of all sects throughout history.
  
• Moreover, Islam regards whatever property or money considered by non-Muslims as valuables—according to their faiths—and pledges to protect them, even if they pose no real value to Muslims.
  
• Liquor and swine are an example of this, where they cannot be considered as money to Muslims; and if a Muslim squanders or spoils such property of another Muslim, he could not be called upon for compensation; yet if a Muslim spoils such assets belonging to a non-Muslim, he would be responsible for compensation, according to Imam Abu Hanifah.
  
• Protection of Honor. The honor of Dhimmis is sacred in Islam, similar to that of Muslims. Imam Al-Qarafi Al-Maliki once said on this note, “He who transgresses against them (Dhimmis)—even with a mere word of injustice or backtalk— has jeopardized the covenant with Allah and His Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) and the covenant of the religion of Islam” (Al-Furuq Part 3, p. 14). Moreover, there exist abundant additional texts to the same effect.
  
• Social Welfare Against Disability, Old Age, and Poverty
  
• Islam guarantees non-Muslims living under its societal umbrella their necessary welfare benefits, which enables them to live decently and support those they sponsor, since they are considered among the Muslim state’s subjects or citizens. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was reported to have said, “You are all sponsors and (thus) responsible for those you sponsor” (Ibn `Umar).
  
• The Rightly Guided Caliphs and those who succeeded them continued to implement these policies towards non-Muslims living within the Muslim community. During the caliphate of Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), Khalid ibn Al-Waleed sent a letter to the non-Muslim population of Al-Hira in Iraq at the time, assuring them that none of their rights were to be undermined by the Muslim army’s procession in their direction. `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) was also reported to have seen a senile Jewish man asking for alms, and hence took him to the treasury and authorized a monthly pension for him and the likes of him. By this, Abu Bakr and `Umar had jointly formulated a social welfare legislation for Muslims as well as non-Muslims, which was then unanimously picked up by all Islamic sects.
  
• The Right to Freedom of Belief
  
• Additionally, Islam does not force Dhimmis to embrace Islam and recognizes their freedom to choose their own faith. This freedom is stressed in the following Qur’anic verses: [Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error] (Al-Baqarah 2:256) and [Wilt thou (Muhammad) then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!] (Yunus 10:99). History does not deny this fact about Islam, nor do Westerners.
  
• Islam, throughout history, has safeguarded and protected houses of worship for non-Muslims and sanctified their religious rituals. When the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) wrote the peace treaty to the people of Najran, he asserted to them that they should receive the protection of Allah and His Prophet on their property, faith, and choices. Similarly, `Umar’s letter to the people of Iliya in Palestine, upon the Muslim conquest, promised them the liberty to choose the faith they deemed appropriate; in addition there are analogous accounts attributed to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed.
  
• Permitting non-Muslims to build their own houses of worship in towns mainly populated by Muslims also falls under this scope, where early in Muslim history several churches were built in Egypt during the first Hijri century. An example of this is the construction of the Mar Marcus Church in Alexandria (between AH 39 and 56), and the construction of the first church in Fustat in the Roman Alley during the reign of Maslamah ibn Mikhled (between the years AH 47 and 68). Ruler Abdul `Aziz ibn Marwan also authorized constructing a church in Helwan while founding the city, besides allowing a number of bishops to erect hermitage cells.
  
• Historian Al-Maqrizi once said, “All modern day Cairo churches were undoubtedly restored in Islam.”
  
• As for the villages and areas which are not considered among the Muslim provinces, non-Muslims were not repressed against practicing and illustrating their religious rituals, including the renovation of old churches and cathedrals, and were free to expand building such houses of worship as their population grew.
  
• This form of religious tolerance is strictly a bread of Islam, as the infamous French scholar Gustave Le Bon once said (as al-Qaradawi quotes him in his book),
  
• From the verses of the Qur’an we previously mentioned, we find that Muhammad’s forgiveness towards the Jews and the Christians was ultimately phenomenal; and such tolerance was unprecedented by the founders of other religions, such as Judaism and Christianity in particular. We shall also see how his successors followed in his footsteps on this path.
  
• Other Europeans also paralleled such discourse, such as Robertson and others.
  
• The Right to Work and Earn Profits
  
• Islam has guaranteed to non-Muslims living under its umbrella the right to engage in any form of commercial activities, including buying, selling, leasing, and otherwise, with the exception of exercising riba (taking interest on loans, etc.). This rule was derived from a letter from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to the Magians of Hajar, where he said, “You may choose between neglecting riba or facing war with Allah and His Prophet.” The selling of liquor and swine in Muslim provinces are also to be added to the list of the impermissible; otherwise, non-Muslims may practice any form of commercial activities.
  
• Adam Mitz, as al-Qaradawi sites, once said
  
• Islamic jurisprudence does not forbid Dhimmis from entering any field of labor they choose, and they were well-established in trades which yield large profits; excelling as bankers, landlords, and doctors. Moreover, they managed to organize themselves, such that the most prominent bankers in the Levant (Syrian and Palestine) were Jews, whilst the best physicians and writers were Christians, and the chief of the Christian population in Baghdad was the caliph’s personal doctor, as the caliph also gathered in his court the chiefs and heads of the Jewish population.
  
• The Right to Occupy State Ranks
  
• Islam did not prohibit Dhimmis from occupying state positions, since it perceived them as an integral part of the state fabric. Islam also did not encourage their isolation, and the People of the Book were allowed to join all offices apart from those marked with a religious trait; for example, the imamate, leadership of the state and the army, judge of disputes between Muslims, administrator of the dispensing of charity and alms.
  
• The imamate, or caliphate, is a senior leading position in both the mundane world and the religious, a succession of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); and, obviously, such ranks could not be open to non-Muslims.
  
• Similarly, the leadership of the army cannot be considered a purely civil duty, since it is strongly related with jihad, which tops the ladder of Islamic duties.
  
• Moreover, the judiciary is operated through Islamic jurisprudence, and non-Muslims cannot be asked to carry out the rules of a doctrine they do not believe in.
  
• The guardianship over alms and charity also falls under the scope of Islamic duties and logically could not be entrusted to the disposal of the non-Muslim minority within the Muslim state.
  
• Other than the above, all state offices were always open to Dhimmis on condition that they fulfilled the necessary requirements and prerequisites for the positions applied for; that is, integrity, honesty, and loyalty to the state. This is to assure that these sensitive posts be entrusted to faithful individuals, other than those Muslims are warned against in the following verse: [O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: they will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: what their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom] (Aal `Imran 3:118).
  
• Imam Al-Mawardi even authorized Dhimmis to undertake executive ministries rather than delegate ministries. Executive ministers are those who implement and execute the imam’s orders.
  
• Conversely, delegate ministries are those which the imam entrusts to the minister to devise certain political, administrative, and economic matters according to his own personal judgment.
  
• During the Abbasid era, Christians undertook the ministry more than once; for example, Nasr ibn Haroun in AH 369 and Eissa ibn Nastorus in AH 380. Mu`awiyah ibn Abi Sufyan had also appointed a Christian clerk named Sarjoun.
  
• Perhaps Muslim tolerance in this regard was sometimes taken too far, where at some instances, the rights of Muslims themselves were undermined and some skeptics complained about the undeserved prestigious authority of Jews and Christians above them.
  
• Western historian Adam Mitz says in his book Islamic Civilization in the Fourth Hijri Century, “We find it very surprising the abundance of non-Muslim laborers and senior staff within the Muslim state; where Christians governed Muslims in Muslim provinces, and complaints against non-Muslims’ seniority in these provinces dates far back” (part 1, p. 105).
  
• Prophetic Recommendations Particularly for Egyptian Copts
  
• Al-Qaradawi finds that Egyptian Copts in particular have a distinguished position among other non-Muslim minorities, given the prophetic narrations to that effect. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) was reported to have said on his deathbed, “By Allah, respect the Copts of Egypt, for you shall conquer them, and they shall be your supporters in the cause of Allah” (At-Tabarani).
  
• In another hadith, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Treat them well, for they are an asset to you and a warning against your enemies by the Will of Allah.” Reference here is made to Egyptian Copts (Ibn Hibban).
  
• Historical reality has lived up to the Prophet’s prophecies, where Egyptian Copts welcomed the Muslim conquerors, who saved them from the persecution they suffered under the Romans, who had taken up another sect of Christianity. The Copts started entering Islam in large numbers, to the extent that some rulers of the Umayyad dynasty mistakenly enforced the jizyah among some Copts who had already embraced Islam.
  
• The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) attributed certain rights to Egyptian Copts that he did not grant to other minorities, where Ka`b ibn Malik narrates from the Prophet, “If Egypt is conquered, treat the Copts with dignity, for they have a blood relation with us.” Connotation is made here to the mother of the Prophet Isma`il, Hajar, who was an Egyptian (Reported by At-Tabarani and Al-Hakim).
  
• Loyalty Guarantees
  
• Moreover, Islam adds to the rights of minorities by laying down a number of guarantees to live up to these rights. Among the most important of these is the right to believe. Such rights are clearly defined in the Qur’an and the Prophetic Sunnah, and their practice falls under the correct practice of Islam.
  
• These rights are also protected by the Muslim society, which is founded on accurate implementation of Islamic jurisprudence, including the rights of the People of the Book according to Islamic principles. Any Dhimmi who feels that he has been treated unjustly has the right to appeal to the ruler to reverse the injustice against him, either by a Muslim or a non-Muslim.
  
• Scholars and the “general Islamic conscience” are another defense line for non-Muslims to seek protection behind.
  
• Islamic history is full of incidents that indicate the Muslim community’s commitment to protect Dhimmis against any depreciation of their rights.
  
• Islamic history reports the case of the priest who complained against an army leader who wrongfully took his money to Ahmad ibn Tulun, who then had it returned to the priest. There is also the case of the Copt who complained against `Amr ibn Al-`Aas to `Umar, who summoned the latter into account.
  
• The role of scholars in this regard can clearly be detected in the stance of Imam Al-Awza`i towards the Abbasid ruler during his time, when the ruler kicked out a non-Muslim tribe from Mount Lebanon after a group of them had refused to pay their yearly agricultural tax. Al-Awza`i wrote on this matter to the caliph, denouncing the act and reminding him that Dhimmis were free people and not slaves.
  
• Furthermore, when Al-Waleed ibn `Abdul Malik confiscated Church John from the Christians and enjoined it to a mosque, they sought Caliph `Umar ibn `Abdul Aziz’s assistance to revoke the wrongdoing against them, which he did.
  
• The history of the Islamic judiciary bears witness to this, as was the case with `Ali ibn Abi Talib (may Allah be pleased with him) and others; which evidently proves that Islam renders the People of the Book as an integral part of society, not to be discriminated against by the Muslim population in any way

Wonderful. It's nice to know that Muslims like you would not resist or complain at all when deprived of their rights and treated as second-class citizens. I should call Israel up and tell them that they should just treat the Palestinians like the Jewish equivalent of dhimmis and all would be well in the middle east

Israel as we know is a colonial settler state that has abused its power, I believe they already mal-treat the inhabitants of the land they stole? so I am not sure what you are talking about? are you here to tickle me?


cheers

 

[wilberhum]

Wilberhum “But not just Islam, remember the Inquisitions?

Not to nit pick, just trying to be fair, but exactly what Christian scripture were those of the Inquisition following?

Sanction by the Pope, how much more Catholic can it get?

 

[Qingu]

Qingu, what I find interesting is that Christianity and Islam both claim common ancestry, compulsion (Jewish Law), yet one group prescribes a simple shunning for apostates and the other prescribes death.

I think this can be explained partly because the early Christians had zero political power or legal authority and thus could not enforce "death for apostasy" in their communities. Christianity certainly is very against apostates, saying they're even more ****ed than unbelievers—they just push the incentive against apostasy to the afterlife. Muslims, on the other hand, were a self-sufficient community and thus could actually enforce the death penalty for apostates.

As soon as the Christians got control over the government they started killing apostates and heretics like their lives depended on it.

Edit: Wilberhum, you devil you.

 

[Isambard]

In reply to the title, Id imagine someone saying to you, "Love me or Ill hurt you"
Would be considered some a strong act of compulsion, coersion even.

So how much worse is it when its a deity saying to you "Love me or Ill hurt you more than you can ever imagine...and guess what, Ill do it forever!"

Feels pretty compulsive to me

 

[Qingu]

But I don't pay the same tax as everyone else. I don't see why (bla bla bla)

The merits, or lack thereof, of the concept of wealth distribution have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

You said you are a woman you'd not be drafted anyway and I say why not? there have been women worriers and gave you two examples.

So you believe women are drafted along with men according to Islamic law?

Sadaqa i.e nonzakat is very important in Islam that is why I brought it up!
mentioned that many times in hadith

Is it mandatory? No. And if you had any mercy, you'd edit your post to get rid of the ridiculously long scroll of meaningless text.

There are tons of ahadith and books on the rights of dhimmis in an islamic state here is one about dhmmis cheating Muslims out of their property and getting away with it.

2523. It is related from 'Abdullah said that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Whoever swears an oath in which he lies in order to take the property of a Muslim by it, will meet Allah with anger covering him." He said that al-Ash'ath ibn Qays said, "By Allah, that was about me. There was some land that was between me and a Jewish man, and he disavowed me, so I took him to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked me, 'Do you have a clear proof?' I said, 'No.' He said to the Jew, 'Swear.' I said, 'Messenger of Allah, then he will swear and take away my property.' Then Allah Almighty revealed, 'Those who sell Allah's contract and their own oaths for a paltry price, such people will have no portion in the Next World ....' (3:77)"

1. Your summary of this text appears to be wholly inaccurate.

2. What on earth is the relevance of this text to the rights of dhimmis? Are you arguing that Muhammad hereby gave dhimmi Jews the right to lie about their property claims against Muslims?

best you purchase a book if truly interested in the topic? here is a quick overview

Your ability to copy and paste is truly remarkable.

I fail to see anything you posted that contradicts my statements about dhimmis. Though admittedly I started skimming after a while.

I saw a statement about establishing welfare for dhimmis, though this appears to be voluntary. I was also sort of surprised to see the extent to which dhimmis were allowed within the caliphate's bureaucracy, though your text clearly says they were not allowed to wield positions of political power.

You seem to be a fan of posting a ton of irrelevant material in the hopes that I will take your word for it that something you posted refutes my argument. This is simply dishonest on your part. In the future, please respond directly to my points, or don't respond at all.

Israel as we know is a colonial settler state that has abused its power, I believe they already mal-treat the inhabitants of the land they stole? so I am not sure what you are talking about? are you here to tickle me?

If the Jews rounded up all the Palestinians, and killed them unless they submitted to a special "goyim tax," resigned their right to political power, and were denied the same legal rights as Jews, this would be just peachy with you, right?

 

[jd7]

Wilberhum, not trying to argue, but I didn’t see any scripture listed in your reply to a request asking for scripture.

 

[wilberhum]

Wilberhum, not trying to argue, but I didn’t see any scripture listed in your reply to a request asking for scripture.

Ah, go ahead and argue, it's fun.

But no you didn't see any scripture. But as I said:

Sanction by the Pope, how much more Catholic can it get?

I have little concern about what "Scripture says" because I believe scriptures have nothing to do with god.

Since, IMHO all religions are man made, I don't care what they say, I care what they do.

 

[جوري]

The merits, or lack thereof, of the concept of wealth distribution have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Then don't bring it up? topic has to do with compulsion in religion not tax and not jizyah!

So you believe women are drafted along with men according to Islamic law?

Another irrelvant point to the topic. Woman can participate in war, wouldn't affect you either way since we are not living in an islamic state, and you are already a kaffir so how does this affect you?.

Is it mandatory? No. And if you had any mercy, you'd edit your post to get rid of the ridiculously long scroll of meaningless text.

Mandatory to give to the poor. Any text that you don't like you can just skip over instead of giving me a headache about it!

1. Your summary of this text appears to be wholly inaccurate.

How so?

2. What on earth is the relevance of this text to the rights of dhimmis? Are you arguing that Muhammad hereby gave dhimmi Jews the right to lie about their property claims against Muslims?

It means the Jew lied and got away with it, if Muslims were the torturous beasts that you paint them, he would have ruled in the Muslim's favor not the Jew's and given him his land back!

Your ability to copy and paste is truly remarkable.

isn't that what you meant by 'support'? I believe I have given you examples which were unsatisfactory to your person because I didn't copy them from somewhere.. D***** if you do and D***** if you don't!

I fail to see anything you posted that contradicts my statements about dhimmis. Though admittedly I started skimming after a while.

perhaps you missed something in the skimming then!

I saw a statement about establishing welfare for dhimmis, though this appears to be voluntary. I was also sort of surprised to see the extent to which dhimmis were allowed within the caliphate's bureaucracy, though your text clearly says they were not allowed to wield positions of political power.

You'd be surprised how much more you'd learn if you'd pick a book!

You seem to be a fan of posting a ton of irrelevant material in the hopes that I will take your word for it that something you posted refutes my argument. This is simply dishonest on your part. In the future, please respond directly to my points, or don't respond at all.

I believe I have written freely and you demanded 'support' personally, I dislike bipolarity and repeating myself. If you don't want a response to it then don't post your asinine questions all together! my feeling is, you were just looking for a particular type of reply to foster your mentality!

If the Jews rounded up all the Palestinians, and killed them unless they submitted to a special "goyim tax," resigned their right to political power, and were denied the same legal rights as Jews, this would be just peachy with you, right?

Again I believe the Jews already kill palis at whim-- yeah peachy!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0 [/media]

cheers!

 

[Woodrow]

As for the thread title: I understand that the Quran says there is "no compulsion in religion." And yet dhimmi who are conquered by the Muslims are required to pay a poll tax and are treated as second-class citizens, unless they convert. This seems like cognitive dissonance to me.

I would certainly rather "convert" to Islam than be treated as a dhimmi.

wait until you discover that the Zakat a Muslim pays, and Non-Mulims don't is a lot higher than the "Poll tax". very strong incentive for a Dhimmi not to convert.

If you live in a country, you help pay for the upkeep of the country. A dhimmi only pays for the portion that applies for giving him protection. a dhimmi can not be forced into the military nor can he be held accountable for most sharia laws.

financially a dhimmi is at an advantage over a Muslim, in an Islamic Nation.

 

[Isambard]

wait until you discover that the Zakat a Muslim pays, and Non-Mulims don't is a lot higher than the "Poll tax". very strong incentive for a Dhimmi not to convert.

If you live in a country, you help pay for the upkeep of the country. A dhimmi only pays for the portion that applies for giving him protection. a dhimmi can not be forced into the military nor can he be held accountable for most sharia laws.

financially a dhimmi is at an advantage over a Muslim, in an Islamic Nation.

But there is still a class system based on faith no?

 

[Qingu]

wait until you discover that the Zakat a Muslim pays, and Non-Mulims don't is a lot higher than the "Poll tax". very strong incentive for a Dhimmi not to convert.

Beneficiaries of jizya: Muslims.
Beneficiaries of zakat: Muslims.

The jizya takes the wealth from one class and gives it to the other.
The zakat takes the wealth of the ruling class and redistributes it ... amongst the ruling class.

Sorry, I don't see much monetary incentive to being a dhimmi. Though I suppose I'd have to look at specific rates.

If you live in a country, you help pay for the upkeep of the country. A dhimmi only pays for the portion that applies for giving him protection. a dhimmi can not be forced into the military nor can he be held accountable for most sharia laws.

But in exchange the dhimmis give up significant rights, such as the ability to bear witness against a Muslim.

I also personally find the concept of a "protected class" sort of ridiculous and insulting. American southerners used this language to justify slavery. One class of people (involuntarily) exchanged their rights for food, lodging, and "protection." The white slavemasters saw themselves as the noble stewards of the blacks, who were supposedly unfit to control their own destiny.

As a potential dhimmi, I wouldn't want Muslims' "protection," in exchange for my own subjugation.

 

[jd7]

Wilberhum “no you didn't see any scripture”. “I have little concern about what "Scripture says" because I believe scriptures have nothing to do with god”.

Just the same a little scripture might be helpful in backing up certain claims/statements, wouldn’t you agree?

 

[Woodrow]

Should Jizyah be enforced on Non-muslim minority in an islamic state ?
A question arises whether a modern Islamic state should collect Jizyah from its non-Muslim citizens or not. Before we answer this question, let us consider the views of Dr. Hamidullah, an eminent scholar of Islam, on this issue. He says :


Zakat is paid by every Muslim, male or female, old or minor, sane or insane, provided he possesses wealth at the level of nisab. However, Jizyah is levied only on adult male healthy non-Muslims capable to participate in a war. Women, old men, minors, sick, persons of unsound mind, poor, beggars, priests, etc. are exempted from the payment of Jizyah. Those non-Muslims who join the military service of the Islamic state are also exempted from the payment of Jizyah tax, while the Muslims are not exempt from Zakat even if they discharge the defence duties. Moreover, the rates of Jizyah are much lower as compared to Zakat because the highest rate of Jizyah is 4 Dinar or 48 Dirhams per person per annum, while the amount of Zakat can be substantial depending on the wealth of the tax payer. For instance, a Zimmi with wealth of one million Dinar would pay Jizyah at 4 Dinar only, while a Muslim possessing that much amount shall pay Zakat at 25 thousand Dinar.

Source: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070811220157AAvmLh8

Credentials of Dr. Hamidullah:

About Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah Our Imam's Teacher
One of our Imam's great teachers was the late Dr. Muhammad Hamidullah, a giant among scholars. Dr. Hamidullah wrote over 250 books, papers, and manuscripts in French, Urdu, Arabic, English and German.
Source: http://www.iant.com/m_hamidullah.php

 

[wilberhum]

Wilberhum “no you didn't see any scripture”. “I have little concern about what "Scripture says" because I believe scriptures have nothing to do with god”.

Just the same a little scripture might be helpful in backing up certain claims/statements, wouldn’t you agree?

Well then, why don't you go find some scriptures.
Scriptures maybe important to you, but I have explained my opinion.

I would assume that there is no scripture that says "Pope go torture bad people to death to save there souls". but that doesn't change the fact that he found some justification to do so.

But if there was one and it was quoted, the time honored excuse would be used. "Taken out of context" ;D

 

[wilberhum]

My favorite source of information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_3.shtml
In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:
• acknowledged Islamic superiority
• accepted Islamic power
• paid tribute (i.e. paid an additional tax) to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes
• avoided blasphemy
• did not try to convert Muslims
• complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:
o restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge
o restrictions on building synagogues and churches
o not allowed to carry weapons
o could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
o could not bequeath anything to a Muslim
o could not own a Muslim slave
o a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
o a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court
o dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

 

[Uthman]

Greetings,

Remember that the Jizya serves a symbolic role as well i.e. it demonstrates the allegiance of the Dhimmi.

Also, the Muslims living in a Khilafah state should take their obligation to protect the Dhimmi very seriously as it was said in a Hadith:

"One who kills a man under covenant will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise"
​

Also it is reported that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said :

"Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi, I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment."
​

Regards

 

[wilberhum]

Greetings,

Remember that the Jizya serves a symbolic role as well i.e. it demonstrates the allegiance of the Dhimmi.

Also, the Muslims living in a Khilafah state should take their obligation to protect the Dhimmi very seriously as it was said in a Hadith:

"One who kills a man under covenant will not even smell the fragrance of Paradise"
​

Also it is reported that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) said :

"Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi, I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment."
​

Regards

Jizya serves a symbolic role as well i.e. it demonstrates that the Dhimmi is subdued. :raging:

 

[- Qatada -]

My favorite source of information.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/spain_3.shtml
In Islamic Spain, Jews and Christians were tolerated if they:
• acknowledged Islamic superiority
• accepted Islamic power
• paid tribute (i.e. paid an additional tax) to the Muslim rulers and sometimes paid higher rates of other taxes
• avoided blasphemy
• did not try to convert Muslims
• complied with the rules laid down by the authorities. These included:
o restrictions on clothing and the need to wear a special badge
o restrictions on building synagogues and churches
o not allowed to carry weapons
o could not receive an inheritance from a Muslim
o could not bequeath anything to a Muslim
o could not own a Muslim slave
o a dhimmi man could not marry a Muslim woman (but the reverse was acceptable)
o a dhimmi could not give evidence in an Islamic court
o dhimmis would get lower compensation than Muslims for the same injury

LIE.

bro,
The people who made this claim should bring their evidence. Sometimes they make claims concerning a so-called 'pact of Umar' citing its apparent discriminatory regulations, but br. Kadafi has refuted this previously on the forum:

Thomas Arnold writes in his book the spread of Islam in the world:

A later generation attributed to 'Umar a number of restrictive regulations which hampered the Christians in the free exercise of their religion, but De Goeje [3] and Caetani [4] have proved without doubt that they are the invention of a later age; as, however, Muslim theologians of less tolerant periods accepted these ordinaces as genuine, they are of the importance for forming a judgement as to the condition of the Christian Churches under Muslim rule. This so-called ordinace of 'Umar runs as follows: "In the name of God………. you are at liberty to treat us as enemies and rebels". [5]

[1] Baladhuri, p. 129 [Liber Expugnationis Regionum]
[2] Ibn S'ad, Vol. III, p. 246 [Al-Tabaqat]
[3]Memoire sur la conquete de la Syrie, p. 143
[4] Annali dell' Islam, Vol. III, p. 957.
[5] Gottheil pp. 382-4 [Dhimmis and Moslems in Egypt]


​

Abdulaziz Sachedina writes in his book The Islamic Roots of Democratic Pluralism:

The discriminatory regulations in exchange for protection are usually traced back to a document known as the Pact (pahd) of 'Umar. The contents of this document suggest that its attribution to Umar b. al-Khattab, who ruled from 634 to 644, is doubtful. The discriminatory stipulations—a non-Muslim's word was not to be accepted against a Muslim in the qadi's court; the murder of a non-Muslim was not to be treated as quite so heinous a crime as the murder of a Muslim—not only run completely counter to the spirit of justice in the Koran, but they also contravene the practice of the early community. The tendency among later jurists, in the eighth and ninth centuries, was to seek justification for the eighth-century rulings by ascribing the documentary evidence in support of these rulings to the early community, whose prestige in such matters was a source of authentication for the later jurists' extrapolations. Thus, for instance, the prohibition against building new churches or repairing old ones, which was instituted under some Umayyad and 'Abbasid caliphs, did not prevail in the early decades, because it is well documented that non Muslims erected such places of worship following the conquest. When Muslims took Jerusalem in 638, the caliph 'Umar b. al-Khattab, on his visit to that city from Damascus, sent the inhabitants of the city the following written message:

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate. This is a written document from 'Umar b. al-Khattab to the inhabitants of the Sacred House (bayt al-maqdis). You are guaranteed (aminun) your life, your goods, and your churches, which will be neither occupied nor destroyed, as long as you do not initiate anything [to endanger] the general security
​

It is difficult to see how the same caliph could have instituted the discriminatory laws against the protected people, as later sources report.


​

For information on Jizyah, please read the following:
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2005/jizya-in-islam/
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544994

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscellaneous/16133-jizya-dhimmis.html
​

 

[جوري]

You and our dear pal quingu seem to be wailing for communism? That 'utopic society' you both speak of translates to nothing else in my book as far as I am concerned.
So quick to condemn a society that has paved to the world the path of enlightenment , You dispute over a state that has dissolved over a hundred years ago, you have not interviewed one person who has lived under such a state, yet have formulated a perfect idea of how subjugable everyone will be for paying the equivalent of tax to the state. One you'll merrily pay else where were it not filed under a different name-- yet applaud a most imperfect system which not 60 years ago demanded a black woman move to the back of the bus for a white man..
can we please spell hypocrisy?

When it is time for an Islamic state to assemble and insha'Allah it is just a matter of time, then you don't have to be one if its citizens, you can go find some other utopia maybe in Cuba and live there..

cheers