Taoist statue deemed “offensive” to Islam

[Jayda]

i disagree. malaysia has a history of tolerance. i think the people behind this are wanting to cause division for their own political aims.

hola,

i don't think tolerance means anything... it's a secular moral with a shifting definition. it is inconsistent and often completely incoherent... for example... a man having sex with a child is pedophilia under our laws... yet the speaker of the house marching (nancy pelosi) with people who champion men sleeping with children (naambl) is tolerance. why?

Catholics have our own equivalent value, caritas. no islamic system of government on earth... past or present... exemplifies caritas. i'd be insulted if it did! Catholics have yet to live by it. but according to said principle, above all is God, and there is no room for the worship of non existent 'gods'

que Dios te bendiga

 

[wilberhum]

hola,

it is not me who is intolerant... it is my God who is intolerant of other peoples' 'gods.' what God says is good... and the first thing He says to us is that He is God, and there are none like Him. i live to serve God, not to serve man... men do not know what they want or what is good for them... their creator knows what they need and what is best for them, that is why i do what i'm told.

que Dios te bendiga

An intolerant god is just an excuse for your intolerance.

The same excuse OBL uses.

 

[NoName55]

i disagree. malaysia has a history of tolerance. i think the people behind this are wanting to cause division for their own political aims.

why can they not keep their statues inside their places of worship instead of in-your-face countrywide alfresco temples?

 

[Jayda]

An intolerant god is just an excuse for your intolerance.

The same excuse OBL uses.

obeying the first commandment is not a sin according to God... although perhaps it is a social sin. i don't pretend to be a better person than OBL, we are told that there is not one good person... we have all sinned and are not worthy. if there is hope for me and the sins i've committed then there is hope for OBL.

 

[NoName55]

obeying the first commandment is not a sin according to God..

apparently that can be interpreted according to your whims since you contradict it by worshiping a woman and various other dead priests and popes (and make statues/idols of them)!

 

[Jayda]

apparently that can be interpreted according to your whims since you contradict it by worshiping a women and various other dead priests and popes (and make statues/idols of them)!

if worship is a word which here means obeying the authorities God has placed in front of me then by all means include worship of the prophets, judges and kings. i obey the Word of God, wherever it is to be found.

 

[Intisar]

no, i would not insult the mother and servants of God based upon the word of a false prophet.

Excuse me? False prophet? What are you trying to insinuate?

 

[Jayda]

Excuse me? False prophet? What are you trying to insinuate?

rather than you and noname demanding that i respond to outrageous and unprovoked blasphemous accusations against my religion, why don't you just pick and choose which posts i make are allowed to appear on the thread? you are a moderator... decide.

my religious designation says Catholic doesn't it? i prefer to not make it an issue unless forced to... yet for some reason (and usually out of the blue) my Church and Lord are insulted in the most grevious ways from the people who tell me we worship the same God. consider this thread... i applauded muslims for upholding the first commandment, and for this i am told my saints and the Blessed Virgin are idols based upon the word of a man whom my religious designation clearly indicates is not considered a prophet. i am not going to apostacize myself to please you... why call yourselves our friends if you don't mean it?

 

[جوري]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

idol
1-A material effigy that is worshipped
2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

Why is it an idol when it is a taoist statue but not a Jesus or mary statue?

that would be hypocrisy...

cheers

 

[Intisar]

my religious designation says Catholic doesn't it? i prefer to not make it an issue unless forced to... yet for some reason (and usually out of the blue) my Church and Lord are insulted in the most grevious ways from the people who tell me we worship the same God.

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

 

[Jayda]

Well what would you call this if not idols?

idol
1-A material effigy that is worshipped
2-Someone who is adored blindly and excessively!

Why is it an idol when it is a taoist statue but not a Jesus or mary statue?

that would be hypocrisy...

cheers

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[snakelegs]

hola,

i don't think tolerance means anything... it's a secular moral with a shifting definition. it is inconsistent and often completely incoherent... for example... a man having sex with a child is pedophilia under our laws... yet the speaker of the house marching (nancy pelosi) with people who champion men sleeping with children (naambl) is tolerance. why?

Catholics have our own equivalent value, caritas. no islamic system of government on earth... past or present... exemplifies caritas. i'd be insulted if it did! Catholics have yet to live by it. but according to said principle, above all is God, and there is no room for the worship of non existent 'gods'

que Dios te bendiga

i don't know what caritas is but you are getting too abstract here. malaysia has a lot of different religions who have been living peacefully together up until fairly recently. all i said was that i think this controversy has been whipped up for a political agenda to cause division and disharmony.
personally, i would hate to be forced to look at a huge statue of any kind - even a magnificent serpent!

 

[snakelegs]

why can they not keep their statues inside their places of worship instead of in-your-face countrywide alfresco temples?

yes - this would be much more preferable.

 

[Jayda]

[/B]

And that's where your mistaken, we worship Allaah, the one and only God where you make him into three. You haven't explained who the ''false prophet'' you were alluding to was, care to do so?

no... you worship Allah and we worship nothing only when you wish to feel superior... when, however, you want to lend legitimacy to islam or to proselytize to us then Allah and God/Dios are one and the same. the Catholic Church teaches you pray to the God of Abraham, and thus that is what i believe, if you care to know.

regarding your second question... this is precisely what i'm talking about... i have a nice civilized discussion and then one of you comes along and insults my religion and challenges me to declare my faith against yours. i do so and i am accused of blasphemy and insulting you. in my mind that's uncivilized... but you have different ways.

so in answer to your question, mohamed is not a prophet from God, consequently i do not adhere to his teachings regarding the Blessed Virgin or the Servants of God as NoName wishes me to.

 

[snakelegs]

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

 

[Jayda]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

no.

whereas our art and prayers are meant to focus our prayers toward the glorious things the God of Abraham has accomplsihed through His servants, buddhists, hindus etc have created art to pray as if the art itself had life and was deified... this is a god beside God.

do not misunderstand me, under no circumstances do i think it is okay to hurt people like this... i think the best we can do is say 'no' firmly, before being rolled over by cranes, plows and tractors... since man is rather insistent on worshipping things of his own creation.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Intisar]

no... you worship Allah and we worship nothing only when you wish to feel superior... when, however, you want to lend legitimacy to islam or to proselytize to us then Allah and God/Dios are one and the same. the Catholic Church teaches you pray to the God of Abraham, and thus that is what i believe, if you care to know.

regarding your second question... this is precisely what i'm talking about... i have a nice civilized discussion and then one of you comes along and insults my religion and challenges me to declare my faith against yours. i do so and i am accused of blasphemy and insulting you. in my mind that's uncivilized... but you have different ways.

so in answer to your question, mohamed is not a prophet from God, consequently i do not adhere to his teachings regarding the Blessed Virgin or the Servants of God as NoName wishes me to.

You seem a bit hostile. You believe that Muhammad (SAWS) is not a Prophet of God or Allaah, alright fair enough, but therein lies the difference between my religion and yours. We believe that God is One, and doesn't need to have human attributes because he is superior to his creations. Let's not make this a religious debate/discussion, but you make God three therefore you believe not in monotheism but polytheism. That's just how I see it, take it or leave it. You find what he said insulting, why did you have to say something equally insulting, if not more, back to him? Insults are not needed here, I'm sure we're all civilized humans here and can have a normal civilized discussion. I think you need to let your guard down and stop being so hostile towards others; you labelled yourself a ''Catholic extremist'' all on your own accord, was that really necessary?

I don't see a difference between the idols that Hindus or even the pagan Arabs of the Prophet's (SAWS) time worship and your statues of the Virgin Mary, that's just how I feel; barnone.

 

[snakelegs]

no.

whereas our art and prayers are meant to focus our prayers toward the glorious things the God of Abraham has accomplsihed through His servants, buddhists, hindus etc have created art to pray as if the art itself had life and was deified... this is a god beside God.

do not misunderstand me, under no circumstances do i think it is okay to hurt people like this... i think the best we can do is say 'no' firmly, before being rolled over by cranes, plows and tractors... since man is rather insistent on worshipping things of his own creation.

que Dios te bendiga

how do you know???? i have heard hindus say the exact same thing you have said about the statues of their gods - it is only a focal point, etc etc. to an outsider when they pray before their gods, it looks the same to me as when you pray before yours.
you are the one who brought your religion in to this discussion.
btw, what is this "caritas" that only catholicism has?

 

[NoName55]

don't you think buddhists, hindus etc can say the same thing about their statues and gods?

touché!

edit:caritas Internationalis is a "confederation of 162 Catholic relief, development and social service organizations" operating in over 200 countries and territories worldwide.

 

[جوري]

that's an excellent question.

we call them focal points for prayer 'dulia' the purpose of which is to remind us of the specific reason God has used a Saint or the Blessed Virgin to secure His purposes. the physical stimulus of a sight provides us with the correct mindframe for why we are praying. consider the crucifix, we believe God died for our sins... by looking at a crucifix with Jesus in pain we understand how great our sins are, how unworthy we are before God, and how fortunate we are to have a God that loves us so much He would take on our rightful punishment in our place.

according to Catholic theology it would be sinful to look at that same crucifix and worship it because it is made out of the choiciest oak or really nice marble.

que Dios te bendiga

I don't understand how God used saints or in which context made a request for catholics to use them?..
I would personally find it a distraction to have so many different statues of Jesus.. black, white, hispanic, how can that set one in the right frame of mind?.. the statues don't make me feel fortune, love/ peace and I have no idea what 'rightful punishment in our place' means.. seems like a cop out for not wanting to take responsibility for our sins..

I'd not pick so much, except it seemed appropriate considering the circumstance.. I am sure the toaists can as well justify their statues?.. maybe their statues signify Jesus? Why should Jesus look like kid rock? Why can't he look malaysian?


peace!