Muslim women urged to combat terror

[wilberhum]

Yeah lol, how the heck did my brother get into this :scared:
just kidding, :nervous:


I really can't believe they're going to use our sister's and mothers against us. Rediculous! This is kinda turning out like the soviet invasion on my country [afghanistan]. The teachers would ask the students to spy on their own parents and tell them if any of them say anything against communism. Then they would assasinate them.
Man I hate terrorists, but I hate dictators even more.
Peace be with you
Hell be with them!
Omari

It only seams logical that if you conceder getting women to combat terror is
"I really can't believe they're going to use our sister's and mothers against us", you support terror. :?

 

[Omari]

Oh silly me? secrets out!

Lol no i hate terrorism . Partly because i had to live during the taliban invasion. Partly because no one comes into the same elevator as me when I wear a hat. wohoo lol.
but the way you put it..you're unfortunatly making sense lol.

Omari

 

[جوري]

Hmm. Well, in all the mosques I've been to, men and women are segregated,

That is a fairly modern trend to protect women.. if it were the norm.. men and women would be separated and/or segregated during pilgrimage..
I have just answered this very thing on another thread..posted by our dear member 'thirdwatch'

the very heart of Islam

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If I recall, the Prophet(saw) did not have segregation by walls in his mosque right? Did men and women not interact in the mosque during his(saw) time?

Correct me if I'm wrong Insha'Allah.

 

[Keltoi]

It's a good thing. But I think it's a redundant suggestion. Are we really to believe that if a wife of any religion knew her husband was planning to commit an act of terrorism contrary to law and to her morality, she would sit idly by and let it happen? The same wives who start/carry on/end domestic arguments over trivia like, say, wallpaper?

Redundant suggestion? Not really. Take the number of fathers and children involved in drugs and gang activity in the U.S. One could make the same argument that "hey, if a mother knows her kid is going to get into gangs and drugs of course they will take steps to try to stop it"...but unfortunately this isn't the case in many, many cases. They are either oblivious, apathetic, afraid, or involved.

 

[جوري]

If I recall, the Prophet(saw) did not have segregation by walls in his mosque right? Did men and women not interact in the mosque during his(saw) time?

Correct me if I'm wrong Insha'Allah.

they did.. grown men used to go learn on the hands of Saida aish RA

the day she broke the plate, and Prophet Mohammed SAW said 'ghadabat umkoum ghadabat' there were men in that majlis..

women went out on battle fields.. women were surgeons, women were martyred, women started their own business from state funds..

THE ISLAMIC WORLD
Walladah Bint Mustakfi (c. 1001-1080) - Poet. Walladah was a poet and the free spirited daughter of a Caliph. She lived in Cordoba, Spain, during its most sophisticated and tolerant period. In contrast to Christian Europe, Cordoba under the Moors housed one of the great libraries of the world. At one time it included scholarly women on its staff. In this relaxed atmosphere where women went about unveiled, Walladah was free to give mixed sex parties where she read her quite bold poetry. Economically independent and beholding to no one, Walladah had lovers but never married, which illustrates the nature of the tolerant society into which she was born. Only a few lines of Wallada's poetry remain. Yet she is considered one of the three most important female poets of the era. "My lover I offer the curve of my cheek/ And my kiss to whoever desires it."
(Walladah is one of the personalities featured in Women in the Muslim World.)

Asma (?-1074 or 1087) - Queen. Asma, wife of Ali al-Sulayhi, the founder of Fatimid rule in Yemen, was a powerful woman in her time. The Fatimids were leaders of the Ismaili Shiite movement devoted to the regeneration of the entire Muslim world. Since they in general believed in the equal education of boys and girls and in the active involvement of women in political life, Ali entrusted much of the management of his realm to his queen. Asma attended councils with her face uncovered (unveiled), and had her name as well as her husband's proclaimed from the pulpits of the mosques. Commentaries about her mentioned her intelligence and literary knowledge and her acts of patronage toward poets.

Queen Asma made sure that both her son and Arwa, her future daughter-in-law who was raised in her court, learned the skills necessary to rule. This was one reason why Arwa became celebrated as a wise and strong leader when it was her turn to become queen. In 1066, Ali was killed during their pilgrimage to Mecca. Asma was kidnapped and spent a year in prison before her son managed to rescue her. When he fell ill, she took over management of Yemen until her death, after which his wife, Queen Arwa, assumed the role of queen. (the rule of Queen Arwa is featured in Women in the Muslim World).

women were surgeons during the time of the prophet.. if you do a search you can find it posted here somewhere.. I need to go pray isha

 

[minaz]

I don't believe this approach has any Anti-Islamic intention. How many Muslims Mothers in our country would want their sons and daughters to replicate what happened in London on July 7th? All the government is asking is for Muslim Mothers to keep an eye out on their children. This is mainly becuase the muslim mother is generally the housekeeper; knows her children better than most, is close to her children- compared to the father who is at work, and islamically our mothers are our key to the door of paradise. We can not deny our Mothers have a profound influence upon us- i personaly wouldn't cross mine! Mi5 has noted that there are a couple of thousand people categorised as a threat to Britain internaly, the 7/7 bombers were not flagged (although one had been previously) and it is the young family orientated men like those who carried out the bombings that the government percieve as a threat. And a way in preventing 7/7s in their eyes is through Muslim mothers.

 

[Cognescenti]

That is a fairly modern trend to protect women.. if it were the norm.. men and women would be separated and/or segregated during pilgrimage.. ...

Doesn't that kind of tick you off? The segregation in the mosque thing, I mean?

 

[Cognescenti]

I don't believe this approach has any Anti-Islamic intention. How many Muslims Mothers in our country would want their sons and daughters to replicate what happened in London on July 7th? All the government is asking is for Muslim Mothers to keep an eye out on their children. This is mainly becuase the muslim mother is generally the housekeeper; knows her children better than most, is close to her children- compared to the father who is at work, and islamically our mothers are our key to the door of paradise. We can not deny our Mothers have a profound influence upon us- i personaly wouldn't cross mine! Mi5 has noted that there are a couple of thousand people categorised as a threat to Britain internaly, the 7/7 bombers were not flagged (although one had been previously) and it is the young family orientated men like those who carried out the bombings that the government percieve as a threat. And a way in preventing 7/7s in their eyes is through Muslim mothers.

Listen to this chap, Minaz, fellows. He isn't selling out. He is just applying careful thinking to the situation and rejecting conspiratorial notions.

I have to believe this idea was germinated within the Muslim community...the part that doesn't want subway cars to blow up.

 

[جوري]

Doesn't that kind of tick you off? The segregation in the mosque thing, I mean?

why should it?
it isn't a social call, it is a call for prayer!.. if you go to chruches of the east coptic/orthodox you'll find that men sit in one section and women in the other.. do you think they too are ticked off? you are in the house of God.. you should be there to fulfill one purpose..
hopefully having to do with

and not further down south..

that being said
Mosques initially aren't built to be segregated by walls-- I assume it is the women who want a bigger space and more privacy that has rendered the wall in SOME mosques.. I think it should be the men who are ticked off not the women.. you've not been inside the woman's section?.. at least in the mosque I frequent ..
there is beautiful calligraphy, stain glass, and we literally look down on the men as the woman section is above.. nice speakers.. place for children..
small library for books, a drink/refreshment section..
no.. not ticked off, in fact I haven't been since Ramadan and you have just roused in me the feeling of wanting to return not wanting to avenge..


cheers

 

[Woodrow]

to be honest this whole thing sounds like an idea dreamed up by a gifted grant writer.

What I see happening is one of the writer's friends gets a nice contract to print up a nice batch of pamphlets, another friend gets a nice contract to write the pamphlets. A few people get talked into being volunteers to distribute the pamphlets and another one of the writer's friends gets a nice paying job as "Volunteer Coordinator" Of course the grant writer gets a nice job as the consultant for the project.


Far better if a bit more research had been done on the role women already play in an Islamic family and use the grant money to help eliminate the poverty that is the cause of much terrorism.

Just my personal one sided opinion, astragfirullah

 

[Cognescenti]

why should it?
it isn't a social call, it is a call for prayer!.. if you go to chruches of the east coptic/orthodox you'll find that men sit in one section and women in the other.. do you think they too are ticked off? you are in the house of God.. you should be there to fulfill one purpose..
hopefully having to do with

and not further down south..

that being said
Mosques initially aren't built to be segregated by walls-- I assume it is the women who want a bigger space and more privacy that has rendered the wall in SOME mosques.. I think it should be the men who are ticked off not the women.. you've not been inside the woman's section?.. at least in the mosque I frequent ..
there is beautiful calligraphy, stain glass, and we literally look down on the men as the woman section is above.. nice speakers.. place for children..
small library for books, a drink/refreshment section..
no.. not ticked off, in fact I haven't been since Ramadan and you have just roused in me the feeling of wanting to return not wanting to avenge..


cheers

I completely understand the segregation concept and the idea of the spiritual aspect being dominant (though I think there is value in a family worshipping together) but don' t you think there is symbolism in the men (at least some of them) being physically closer to the imam? Didn't you just say it wasn't the intent of the Prophet for it to be so?

I am just trying to understand how a western educated woman feels about it.
What about being relegated to the children's section if you have no children? Surely there is symbolism in that?

As for not wanting to avenge..I hope not. It was just a simple cultural question on my part. I harldy think I am insulting Islam.

PS...beautiful image..what is the symbolism?

 

[Cognescenti]

to be honest this whole thing sounds like an idea dreamed up by a gifted grant writer.

What I see happening is one of the writer's friends gets a nice contract to print up a nice batch of pamphlets, another friend gets a nice contract to write the pamphlets. A few people get talked into being volunteers to distribute the pamphlets and another one of the writer's friends gets a nice paying job as "Volunteer Coordinator" Of course the grant writer gets a nice job as the consultant for the project.

Wow..Woodrow..you have a cynnical streak

Far better if a bit more research had been done on the role women already play in an Islamic family and use the grant money to help eliminate the poverty that is the cause of much terrorism.

Yes...but clearly poverty is not the cause of extremism in Britain. Surely that is unarguable.

 

[Woodrow]

I completely understand the segregation concept and the idea of the spiritual aspect being dominant (though I think there is value in a family worshipping together) but don' t you think there is symbolism in the men (at least some of them) being physically closer to the imam? Didn't you just say it wasn't the intent of the Prophet for it to be so?

I will just address this part and How I see it as a Muslim male. The Imam is no different than any other person in the Mosque. He is not up on a pulpit and there is no alter. Most of us can not even see him as we are facing the qiblah from where we are and not looking at where he is. There is no need for us to see the Imam and no status in being "close" to him. When we are in prayer our eyes are fixed on a spot on our prayer rugs or directed in the direction of the qiblah. If a non-Muslim where to walk into the mosque during prayer time I doubt he would even be able to tell what person is the Imam, as everybody is doing the exact same thing.

as far as the woman's section. I been in the woman's section as the Mosque was being built. We have a new Mosque and it was just recently completed. Prior to it being opened us nosy ones thoroughly checked the whole place out. Believe me the ladies have gotten the best in the house.

 

[Cognescenti]

I will just address this part and How I see it as a Muslim male. The Imam is no different than any other person in the Mosque. He is not up on a pulpit and there is no alter. Most of us can not even see him as we are facing the qiblah from where we are and not looking at where he is. There is no need for us to see the Imam and no status in being "close" to him. When we are in prayer our eyes are fixed on a spot on our prayer rugs or directed in the direction of the qiblah. If a non-Muslim where to walk into the mosque during prayer time I doubt he would even be able to tell what person is the Imam, as everybody is doing the exact same thing.

Wait..perhaps I have a serious misunderstanding. It is my understanding that there is a Quranically mandated 5 x/day prayer where the worshipers prostrate themselves toward Mecca. (which, btw, is one of the most intriguing parts of Islam, and which warrants enormous respect..the devotion part)

Are you now telling me that the worshipers remain prostrated during sermons (where the Imam berates Bush and Israel...sorry, couldn't help myself)?????

I am sorry, but I find it inescapable that according to the geograhy of the place of worship, women appear second tier in Islam (as practiced today). Please don't cite the Quran or the Hadith. I am talking about 2007.

PS..I realize this is a bit off topic but I am seriously trying to learn something.

 

[جوري]

I completely understand the segregation concept and the idea of the spiritual aspect being dominant (though I think there is value in a family worshipping together) but don' t you think there is symbolism in the men (at least some of them) being physically closer to the imam? Didn't you just say it wasn't the intent of the Prophet for it to be so?

if you'll watch a video of prayer
[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=LNhIgumNzOQ[/media]..
as you can see men stand shoulder to shoulder, there is so much prostration and kneeling, it wouldn't be comfortable for a sister to stand in their midst, kneel in the midst.. yes there should be no walls but a woman should feel comfortable not self conscious..
Also a woman may lead in prayer by standing shoulder to shoulder with her sisters.. you don't need to follow an imam for that..if I wanted to I can head friday prayer with sisters without going to a mosque all together..

I am just trying to understand how a western educated woman feels about it.
What about being relegated to the children's section if you have no children? Surely there is symbolism in that?

I am afraid you have lost me there?
the children may go with the men or women for prayer!

As for not wanting to avenge..I hope not. It was just a simple cultural question on my part. I harldy think I am insulting Islam.

I don't think you are but I don't think you have a clear understanding of how Islamic prayer is performed hence I included a vid..

PS...beautiful image..what is the symbolism?

this the heart and the mind.. i'e the two aspects that should be satisfied during prayer, or worship..

 

[Cognescenti]

...The Imam is no different than any other person in the Mosque. He is not up on a pulpit and there is no alter. Most of us can not even see him as we are facing the qiblah from where we are and not looking at where he is......

Ok...sorry...but it is that really true? He is speaking to the asembled worshipers. Surely he (I think we can safely assume he is not a she) is accorded some repsect for superior knowledge of the Quran? Is the privlege to speak accorded by random drawing then? I realize there is no altar and the Imam is a stand-in...but he is a man.

Note: I realize the same critique can be made of some Christian sects and even orthodox Judaism.

 

[Woodrow]

Wait..perhaps I have a serious misunderstanding. It is my understanding that there is a Quranically mandated 5 x/day prayer where the worshipers prostrate themselves toward Mecca. (which, btw, is one of the most intriguing parts of Islam, and which warrants enormous respect..the devotion part)

Are you now telling me that the worshipers remain prostrated during sermons (where the Imam berates Bush and Israel...sorry, couldn't help myself)?????

I am sorry, but I find it inescapable that according to the geograhy of the place of worship, women appear second tier in Islam (as practiced today). Please don't cite the Quran or the Hadith. I am talking about 2007.

PS..I realize this is a bit off topic but I am seriously trying to learn something.

There is no sermon during the prayer time. although it is common practice for the Imam to give a brief sermon about 30 minutes before the actual prayer time.Here in Austin typically it will be a 15 minute sermon repeated 3 times first in English, then in Urdu or Spanish, depending on the Mosque and lastly in Arabic. Typically it will be about one of 3 things, Denouncing terrorism, Spreading Charity, or faults within the local Muslims.

During prayer a very large part of it is silent. We usually can not even hear the Imam except for when he is doing the Qur'an recitations.

this 5 minute video is pretty much what happens in a Mosque during Friday Jummat, which is our obligatory time at the Mosque.


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2DTKif_grs[/media]

 

[Cognescenti]

if you'll watch a video of prayer
http://youtube.com/watch?v=LNhIgumNzOQ..
as you can see men stand shoulder to shoulder, there is so much prostration and kneeling, it wouldn't be comfortable for a sister to stand in their midst, kneel in the midst.. yes there should be no walls but a woman should feel comfortable not self conscious..
Also a woman may lead in prayer by standing shoulder to shoulder with her sisters.. you don't need to follow an imam for that..if I wanted to I can head friday prayer with sisters without going to a mosque all together...

Fair enough..I learned something.

I am afraid you have lost me there?
the children may go with the men or women for prayer!

Fair enough....but the young children? The type that can be disruptive? I didn't see any toddlers with the men.

I don't think you are but I don't think you have a clear understanding of how Islamic prayer is performed hence I included a vid..

Yes..that was instructive..thanks. Is there not a portion of the "service" where the Iman speaks about issues of current import to the worshipers?

 

[Cognescenti]

There is no sermon during the prayer time. although it is common practice for the Imam to give a brief sermon about 30 minutes before the actual prayer time.Here in Austin typically it will be a 15 minute sermon repeated 3 times first in English, then in Urdu or Spanish, depending on the Mosque and lastly in Arabic. Typically it will be about one of 3 things, Denouncing terrorism, Spreading Charity, or faults within the local Muslims.

During prayer a very large part of it is silent. We usually can not even hear the Imam except for when he is doing the Qur'an recitations.

this 5 minute video is pretty much what happens in a Mosque during Friday Jummat, which is our obligatory time at the Mosque.

That is also instructive, thanks. What about some of the nutbars at "radical" mosques in Britain, for eg.? I have seen actual videos taken during the "sermons".

As you are a sensible person, I expect you to attend a mosque where common sense reigns.