Turkey & E.U

[yigiter187]

eu is christianty union..turkey is a muslim country...ı think turkey should found a asian union with iran azarbaijan syria egytp,no benefit to turkey from eu..

 

[krypton6]

Let them join the EU, the've already betrayed Islam and our nations.

 

[Amadeus85]

I voted yes. My reason is not to see Turkey become Westernized but to at least see a Muslim presence in something that is going to eventualy affect most of the world's Muslims. With the USA economy loosing international pull, it is a short time before the E.U. becomes the dominate factor in the world's economy. It will happen with or without input from Muslims, but I feel it would be good to have even a small voice be heard.

Are you serious about E.U economy replacing USA hegemony? :muddlehea . I am european and most of people that I know and who know about politics say that E.U has maximum 50 years of existence and then it will collapse.It is like sinking ship.
On topic- very hard question. First because most Turks are against it. Second that Turkey doesnt belong to Europe.I still didnt decide, but I'm rather negative.

 

[anatolian]

Whose nations did Turkey betray?

 

[krypton6]

Whose nations did Turkey betray?

They ended one of the greatest islamic empires, they have banned the hijab, they have tortured and slaughtered kurds, they have ruined the middle east, they have betrayed palestine, and they have betrayed the muslim people by supporting america, what more can I say?

 

[Fishman]

I think they should join. They have been allies of Europe for most of the past century, have had strong historic ties with Europe in the past, and even fought in a European war (World War 1)!

All those who are against Turkish EU membership on the grounds that they are not part of Europe, just ask yourselves, 'if Turkey was still the Byzantine Empire, would they be considered part of Europe?'

 

[Fishman]

They ended one of the greatest islamic empires, they have banned the hijab, they have tortured and slaughtered kurds, they have ruined the middle east, they have betrayed palestine, and they have betrayed the muslim people by supporting america, what more can I say?

This is not intended as a bash of Turkey, just a statement that I agree that they have done some terrible things in the past.
I was going to write a refutation of this, but then I stopped realising how much of this is true. The mass killings of Kurds and Armenians were terrible atrocities, the banning of the Hijab was simply draconian, and getting rid of the Caliph has pretty much sealed the fate of Islam in the world.

With a Caplih, there is a greater chance of a massive clash of religions between western secularism and Islam, yes, but without a central leader things are going to be worse for Islam and the rest of the world. At the moment there is constant war, terrorism, hate and violence in the Muslim world. If there was Caliph to unify Islam and give it a sense of direction, however, this would have a chance of changing. But somehow I doubt that everybody would recognise the new Caliph. If he is a Shia then the Sunnis wouldn't like him, if he was a Sunni then the Shias would hate him and if he was from some other sect then nobody would even listen to him in the first place!

But, as I said before, Turkey has also done some wonderful things for Islam. For a while it was even able to out-compete Renaissance Europe, and it is also the home of much Islamic thought, learning and spirituality.
And supporting the USA is not inherently bad either. Remember the war in Kosovo and the Balkans? The USA saved the Muslim's butts there. If it weren't for NATO, they would have all been shot, tortured or gassed to death by the fascists, so cut America some slack, OK? The USA also opposed the Colonialism that supported Europe thoughout the early modern age, and managed to become the top nation of today not though taking over other people's countries and stealing their resources, but by building up trade and the economy in a generally peaceful and democratic way.

BTW, the Mongols destroyed the original Caliphate, not the Turks. They were also responsible for executing the city of Baghdad. That is the reason why it fails so badly today...

 

[shev]

I think there must be a muslim voice in EU

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I think there must be a muslim voice in EU

There will be a muslim voice in the EU eventually, even without Turkey joining it..

 

[Trumble]

I hope there isn't a 'muslim' voice in the EU any more than there is a Christian one. As I said last time around the EU is an economic organisation, not a religious one. Should it show the slightest sign of adopting any sort of religious agenda beyond a general promotion of religious freedom and tolerance I would immediately join the campaign for my own country to withdraw from it.

 

[phantom221]

i voted NO
WHY?
because its said in the koran that in the future when the muslims and the christians clash the capital of there empire will be Constinople
Which Is Today ISTANBUL

Why Make it easier for them

 

[krypton6]

But, as I said before, Turkey has also done some wonderful things for Islam.

Out competing blablabla is nothing, and they used to be a greate islamic host, they no longer are! Turkey itself has not done anything for islam, the Ottomans acomplished alot but the Ottomans were not turks they were muslims.

:And supporting the USA is not inherently bad either. Remember the war in Kosovo and the Balkans? The USA saved the Muslim's butts there. If it weren't for NATO, they would have all been shot, tortured or gassed to death by the fascists, so cut America some slack, OK? The USA also opposed the Colonialism that supported Europe thoughout the early modern age, and managed to become the top nation of today not though taking over other people's countries and stealing their resources, but by building up trade and the economy in a generally peaceful and democratic way.

Supporting america is always bad. America "helped" muslims in order to help themselves. Thats the thing with america, they never want to help others, they only want to help themselves and some times in order to help themselves they help others. But it is not in their intentions to help others!

America are the worlds greatest imperialists. They have imperialised nearly all former islamic countries, they have slaughtered its people and left the country leaving their own men behind to rule the country for them. You call what america has given to the middle east for democratic? If it was so democratic, then wouldnt the whole middle east be following the Sharia by now? This is not democratic, what they have given to Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many others is not democrati, its one big dictatorship! While they havent stolen themselves, the men that they have left behind to rule their imperialised country, are all thieves, murderes and dictators. How can it be that all middle eastern people are poor? They got the oil but they are still poor! The american allied and setted government are selling the oil and taking the money from it without taking care of their country. And ofcourse america isnt doing anything about it, becuase they dont need the people they only need the government to be allied with america.

BTW, the Mongols destroyed the original Caliphate, not the Turks. They were also responsible for executing the city of Baghdad. That is the reason why it fails so badly today...

I dont know about the early Caliphate's but the Ottoman Empire ended due to to much betraying, and the biggest betrayer of them all was Kemal Ataturk, and he was the father of all turks, the father of turks and they look up to this coward.

 

[Fishman]

Out competing blablabla is nothing, and they used to be a greate islamic host, they no longer are! Turkey itself has not done anything for islam, the Ottomans acomplished alot but the Ottomans were not turks they were muslims.

I never said they are a good host of Islam now. I said that I agreed with what you said about the Kurds and the Armenians and the Hijab ban, remember? I meant that we should still remember a country's good accomplishments as well as the bad.

Supporting america is always bad. America "helped" muslims in order to help themselves. Thats the thing with america, they never want to help others, they only want to help themselves and some times in order to help themselves they help others. But it is not in their intentions to help others!

What did the USA have to gain from saving Bosnia and Kosovo? They have no strategic value or natural resources, and they were not US allies. So why did they join with NATO and liberate them from the fascists?
Not that the USA had the initiative to save some innocent people. No lone country does that. It was the combined efforts of NATO that stopped the fascist genocide.

America are the worlds greatest imperialists. They have imperialised nearly all former islamic countries, they have slaughtered its people and left the country leaving their own men behind to rule the country for them.

This is completely untrue. America never slaughtered any peoples en-masse, with the major exception of the Native Americans. The USA simply has never had an Imperialist history. They did have a few inccidents of colonialism in the Phillipines and Cuba, but never on the grand scale of France, Britain and Spain.
As for leaving a pro-US leader, this is called being a pragmatist. Countries never fight for what they believe in. They fight for themselves, to protect their own interests in an inherrently selfish manner. The vast majority of claims of fighting for freedom or democracy or whatever are just excuses used to make people support them. Whilst doing this is in my opinion rather selfish, it is what all countries do. If Iran or China or Iceland were at the top of the pecking order, they would do the same, if not worse.

You call what america has given to the middle east for democratic? If it was so democratic, then wouldnt the whole middle east be following the Sharia by now? This is not democratic, what they have given to Palestine, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan and many others is not democrati, its one big dictatorship!

Tell me when I said American involvement in the middle east was democratic? It isn't. But that does not mean that other countries would not do the same, if not worse. Again, the USA does not do this because it is some sort of Evil Empire trying to kill all Muslims and end Islam, but because they want to keep their butts as rich as they can for as long as possible. At the moment it is the middle east that is the prick in their side.

While they havent stolen themselves, the men that they have left behind to rule their imperialised country, are all thieves, murderes and dictators. How can it be that all middle eastern people are poor? They got the oil but they are still poor! The american allied and setted government are selling the oil and taking the money from it without taking care of their country. And ofcourse america isnt doing anything about it, becuase they dont need the people they only need the government to be allied with america.

Yes, I agree that the USA does set up capitalist dictatorships, but that does not mean that we should forget what good that the USA has also done to the world.
And it is the Middle Eastern leader's fault that their countries are poor. If they cared if their people starved or not then they should sell oil to the USA and China, and then use the money to build the infrastucture needed to manufacture cheap electrical goods to sell on the world markets rather than buying fancy cars and palaces.

I dont know about the early Caliphate's but the Ottoman Empire ended due to to much betraying, and the biggest betrayer of them all was Kemal Ataturk, and he was the father of all turks, the father of turks and they look up to this coward.

The early Caliphate was the most important one. It was the one that outlined the world of Islam today. But unfortunately they fell from the true path, and all the kings and sultans started to do that 'pragmatism' thing I talked about before, dividing up the empire into several competing areas. Then the original caliphate was stupid enough to put their trust in another country, the original turks, to defend Islam. They started to be pragmatists, and wanted to take over the Caliphate's role, and they fought several wars with them. This, combined with the crusaders, weakened the Caliphate, and it was completely unable to stand up when the Mongols came down from the steppes to butcher, rape and burn everything they could find. They torched Baghdad, destroyed it's irrigation system, captured the Caliph and executed him by trampling from horses. All the city's inhabitants were herded in front of the Mongol hordes, who proceeded to slaughter them with axes.

*************************​

But in only a few hundred years, the Mongol empire had split into several states, or Khanates. They had adopted the culture of the conquered peoples, and the Mongol Khanates, particularly China, became cultural superpowers, with international trade free to pass from Europe to China, something called Pax Mongolia. The Mongols in the Middle East became Muslims, and spread the message of Islam throughout the Mongol Empire.

See how a country guilty of the most henious of crimes can also be the orchestrator of wonderful things? There is no need to have such monolithic hate for people.

 

[anatolian]

They ended one of the greatest islamic empires, they have banned the hijab, they have tortured and slaughtered kurds, they have ruined the middle east, they have betrayed palestine, and they have betrayed the muslim people by supporting america, what more can I say?

I've just asked you which nations did Turkey 'betray'? Arabs? Dude, I can give you a leson how arabs betrayed the Ottoman Empire in WW1.Kurds? Today the terms are being used very relatively "turks slaughtered kurds" is a very exaggerated statement.When and how?What do you call a slaughter? Pls give us your evidence.

At same time I would be happy to know how Turkey ruined the midleast?

Suporting America? Yes, but how many muslim majority countries are there which do not do this today?You talk as if it is only aplies to Turkey. Give us your examples,pls.

 

[Fishman]

I've just asked you which nations did Turkey 'betray'? Arabs? Dude, I can give you a leson how arabs betrayed the Ottoman Empire in WW1.Kurds? Today the terms are being used very relatively "turks slaughtered kurds" is a very exaggerated statement.When and how?What do you call a slaughter? Pls give us your evidence.

At same time I would be happy to know how Turkey ruined the midleast?

Suporting America? Yes, but how many muslim majority countries are there which do not do this today?You talk as if it is only aplies to Turkey. Give us your examples,pls.

Yes, true as well, the Arabs did do their own little bit of fighting against the Caliphate, but I bet the Saudis won't want you to know that...

 

[anatolian]

but the Ottomans were not turks they were muslims.

What heck are you talking about?

I dont know about the early Caliphate's but the Ottoman Empire ended due to to much betraying,

Yes, the worst one was the general arabic betrayel which ocured during the WW1.

and the biggest betrayer of them all was Kemal Ataturk, and he was the father of all turks, the father of turks and they look up to this coward.

Oh, you are not just swiming in the ignorance, you are also shamless.:Evil:

 

[krypton6]

What did the USA have to gain from saving Bosnia and Kosovo?

I have absolutely no knowledge about the conflicts in that area, they just arent in my interest. But I know for shure that in one way or another, america gained alot from it. American's are not the kind of people who help others, and they have never bin.

This is completely untrue. America never slaughtered any peoples en-masse, with the major exception of the Native Americans. The USA simply has never had an Imperialist history. They did have a few inccidents of colonialism in the Phillipines and Cuba, but never on the grand scale of France, Britain and Spain.

America have slaughtered iraqis and palestinians, killing beyond a million.
They have left behind their men, who if adding together have killed millions of muslim revolutionaries. They have removed nearly all governments who are against israel, or even slightly against americas doings around the world.
Only Iran, Somalia, Sudan and Palestine are yet against america. I call removing the leaders of the countries that they disagree with and then replacing them with dictators, for imperialism.

True they havent imperialised in the same scale as France and Britain, but France and Britain are not imperialising any longer, america is the modern imperialism.

Whilst doing this is in my opinion rather selfish, it is what all countries do. If Iran or China or Iceland were at the top of the pecking order, they would do the same, if not worse.

Saddam being the barbaric murdere that he used to be, took care of other countries aswell. He fought and protected Kuwait for 8 years and spend billions of dollars. If Saddam took care of other countries then I'm shure hundreds of other did too.

Again, the USA does not do this because it is some sort of Evil Empire trying to kill all Muslims and end Islam, but because they want to keep their butts as rich as they can for as long as possible. At the moment it is the middle east that is the prick in their side.

Muslims happend to be the only ones on this planet still against Israel, and Israel is americas little middle eastern state. America does not care about the religion Islam itself, they just hate middle easterns, for middle easterns are generally the only ones who are still against america, and those people of the middle east happend to all be muslims, so by eliminating them america is eliminating muslims and Islam.

And it is the Middle Eastern leader's fault that their countries are poor. If they cared if their people starved or not then they should sell oil to the USA and China, and then use the money to build the infrastucture needed to manufacture cheap electrical goods to sell on the world markets rather than buying fancy cars and palaces.

The middle eastern leaders are america! It is americas fault that the whole muslim population are poor. Take away all these american allied leaders, and we used to have a wonderful middle east with leaders taking care of their people. The arab leaders today are selling the oil to the west, and the money they get back they use on their military and themselves strengthening their own position and making it harder for the people to fight against the government. America knows this, but they dont care about the people as long as the government is allied with america! These dictators were not chosen by the people, it is Britain, France and America who left behind these dictators to rule the country for them, so it IS americas fault that the muslims are poor.

What heck are you talking about?

Before 1922 there were no turks! Noone said I'm turk or I'm arab, people said I'm Muslim.

Yes, the worst one was the general arabic betrayel which ocured during the WW1.

The last 50 years of the Ottoman Empire, was filled with betrayal, but it was Kemal Ataturk that ended the Ottoman and Islamic Empire for good, the other leaders until this point were just trying to become more powerful, but Kemal Ataturk ended the Islamic ruling.

you are also shamless.

Coward is the least I could say about Ataturk, the coward ended the Islamic ruling that dated back to the birth of the prophet, no muslim should respect this ...

 

[krypton6]

I know this thread will be closed because of me at some point or another. Because of me many threads have already bin closed

 

[krypton6]

Sorry for this one, was ment to post on another thread.

 

[Fishman]

If they don't get to join can I have Turkey's place instead?