Missionaries: Noble and Loving or Arrogant and Intollerant?

[جوري]

Is the promise of heaven not itself a bribe?

Can't promise anyone something you can't gurantee for yourself? thus I do worry about the sort of bribes missionaries hand out, bikes or otherwise!

In islam we never 'promise' anyone heaven.. each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds...

cheers

 

[Pygoscelis]

atheists like to tell themselves that their beliefs against the existance of God and their secular morals are all fundamental 'common ground' that we all can agree on.

Existence of God and the danger of religious dogmatism (which I'm sure you and I could have a whole other debate on) isn't something I'd expect an atheist and thesit to agree on.

But do we not all agree on secular morals? What do you mean by secular morals? I bet you and I share many moral values, which shows them to be secular in natureIf they were religious in nature I wouldn't share them with you.

how is that attitude any different than other religions? in a desire to make us further understand just how correct their beliefs are the atheists

You raise an interesting point. And I do think the two are comparable. From their own points of view both are engaging in a noble act and from the target's point of view they may be seen as arrogant and intolerant.

A religious zealot may see an atheist as rebelling against God and therefore bringing God's wrath down upon not only the atheist but the whole community at large. The atheist may be seen as a danger in that regard and it may be seen as vital to either convert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

An anti-religious person may see a religious person as brainwshed into a dangerous cult and therefore being susceptible to becoming a suicide bomber, witch hunter, crusader or child abuser (denying their children life saving blood transfusions, genital mutilation, etc). They may be seen as a danger and it may be seen as vital to either deconvert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

The line of thought does work from both points of view. Good observation.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I do worry about the sort of bribes missionaries hand out, bikes or otherwise!

You know, this may be the only thing you and I ever agree on.

I see the acts you speak of as blatant exploitation. It is the exact same mechanism they use to brainwash captured prisoners of war. Find them (or put them) in a state of desperation and hopelessness and then lift them up out of it in conjunction with the message or belief you wish them to hold. It works. Its why missionaries prey on the poor and the young (who are not yet psychologically developed enough to resist them).

 

[snakelegs]

You know, this may be the only thing you and I ever agree on.

I see the acts you speak of as blatant exploitation. It is the exact same mechanism they use to brainwash captured prisoners of war. Find them (or put them) in a state of desperation and hopelessness and then lift them up out of it in conjunction with the message or belief you wish them to hold. It works. Its why missionaries prey on the poor and the young (who are not yet psychologically developed enough to resist them).

this is a big problem in poor countries. in india, many hindus are very upset about this - it isn't just the religion, they turn them against their own culture.
american tv religions have big big bucks!

 

[Jayda]

Existence of God and the danger of religious dogmatism (which I'm sure you and I could have a whole other debate on) isn't something I'd expect an atheist and thesit to agree on.

But do we not all agree on secular morals? What do you mean by secular morals? I bet you and I share many moral values, which shows them to be secular in natureIf they were religious in nature I wouldn't share them with you.

no we do not all agree upon secular morals anymore than we agree upon the universality of christian morals. consider the example of the secular moral 'tolerance,' especially as it relates to the issue of homosexuality. would you say that our active campaigning to deny marital privileges to homosexuals, or our attempts to criminalize homosexual behavior or even to conceed that they fall into a category that might be labeled a disadvantaged minority, is 'tolerant?'

and what happens when atheists challenge christians on this issue? most christians deny that their specific beliefs with regards to tolerance apply to homosexuality, since that's a religious commandment. it's a huge non sequiter because it is an attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole... an attempt to install one set of beliefs upon another.

we have similar christian based morals (like caritas) but they are not the same. Christianity does not teach tolerance, it is a secular moral based upon the atheist idea that there can be ethics without God... we do not agree on this at all, it's universality must be proven just like Christians are required to prove the universality of Christianity.

You raise an interesting point. And I do think the two are comparable. From their own points of view both are engaging in a noble act and from the target's point of view they may be seen as arrogant and intolerant.

A religious zealot may see an atheist as rebelling against God and therefore bringing God's wrath down upon not only the atheist but the whole community at large. The atheist may be seen as a danger in that regard and it may be seen as vital to either convert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

An anti-religious person may see a religious person as brainwshed into a dangerous cult and therefore being susceptible to becoming a suicide bomber, witch hunter, crusader or child abuser (denying their children life saving blood transfusions, genital mutilation, etc). They may be seen as a danger and it may be seen as vital to either deconvert them or otherwise eliminate their influence.

The line of thought does work from both points of view. Good observation.

i miss the good old days where atheists had to disprove God exists otherwise i win

 

[chacha_jalebi]

the most weird missionairies are the jehovah witnesses!!

and most missionaries that i have heard off go to deprived countries and bribe people with exchange for money and stuff just so they convert, which is stupid and wrong!!

 

[snakelegs]

pygo,
you are much kinder and more charitable in your heart toward missionaries than i am. and you're an atheist and i believe in God.
go figger!

 

[glo]

and most missionaries that i have heard off go to deprived countries and bribe people with exchange for money and stuff just so they convert, which is stupid and wrong!!

Where this happens, it is indeed very wrong!

I remember asking for evidence on this a long time ago, but never got any real replies.

It just seems so outlandish to me to think that people would actually use methods like this: "Here is £100. You can have it, if you become a Christian." (??!) :uuh:

I know of many reputable Christians charities who offer support in developing countries. To gain and keep their charity status, their practices are checked and reviewed - and such practices would not be permitted.

If I knew of groups working in ways as you describe, I would certainly be interested to petition against them!

Peace

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

The only missionaries that I sometimes meet are Jeahova Witnesses.

but u r a Christian. So , why should they come to u ? Don't they think u r already saved ???

They must come to me


Verses we need for hereafter

O mankind!


What is it that lures you away from your bountiful Sustainer, who has created you, and formed you in accordance with what you art meant to be and shaped your nature in just proportions, having put you together in whatever form He willed?

-Quran (82:6-8)

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

Where this happens, it is indeed very wrong!

I remember asking for evidence on this a long time ago, but never got any real replies.

missionaries are very much active in my country & i had a long discussion with sis Jayda about it. But what i read about them in newspapers . So , don't know how to give u evidence .


U may ask any church about their activities in Muslim majorities countries .

Detailed discussion will be off topic here.


ok , i just remember .....i met a young man who became Christian because he was told that no christian will get any punishment on the last day ; because Jesus (p) suffered for them already.

This kind of lieing is also bad ..right ?

 

[Jayda]

This kind of lieing is also bad ..right ?

he was not lying... but he over simplified things a bit...

we believe that our sins are so great that there is literally no way for us to repay them on our own account. there are no 'good people.' we believe that Jesus was crucified to pay this debt and it is the only thing that is great enough to pay for our sins.

that alone does not mean that we will see heaven or avoid hell... Jesus provides a clean slate when we sin, but it is up to us to repent and rework ourselves into better people and be on the right path.

those who have not become a part of the new covenant will die with their sins upon them, we believe there is no salvation for them and God will give them the punishment that they deserve (and we all would deserve if we did not have Jesus).

 

[Jayda]

Salaam/peace;




but u r a Christian. So , why should they come to u ? Don't they think u r already saved ???

They must come to me


Verses we need for hereafter

O mankind!


What is it that lures you away from your bountiful Sustainer, who has created you, and formed you in accordance with what you art meant to be and shaped your nature in just proportions, having put you together in whatever form He willed?

-Quran (82:6-8)

Jehovas witnesses are not christians, they are heretics...

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

he was not lying... ..........God will give them the punishment that they deserve (and we all would deserve if we did not have Jesus).

Ok , I understand, we Muslims are going to a very hot place









But is it ok for missionaries to tell us that become Christians & there will be no punishment for u on the last day ?



I clearly remember that earlier u said like this -- it’s not ok to say so.



May be , I should ask in this thread : Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians

Because of Jesus (p) , Bush , Hitler will get no punishment ??? Jesus (p) died to make all Christians sinless & surely all Christians including killers , rapists will get tickets to heaven ?



What I understood from other Christians & ur posts that some bad Christians might not go to heaven though Jesus (p) died on the cross .





So , missionaries must not tell Muslims what they told a Muslim in my country …am I right ???

Verses we need for hereafter



Say: Call upon those whom you assert besides God;



they do not control the weight of an atom in the heavens or in the earth nor have they any partnership in either,



nor has He among them any one to back (Him) up.[34.22]

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I don't mind them, I've been known to natter to Mormons, JH, Muslims, Catholics trying to convince me to worship The Virgin Mary. I listen, then start talking about Sikhism, after bit they get the message I can't be penterated they leave.

 

[MaiCarInMtl]

I've never actually had any kind of religious group come to my door. I was always ready to invite people in and serve them tea and cookies.

I'd still listen now as long as I don't feel they are attacking my personal beliefs... Oh, and I wouldn't let them in, they can stay at the door (things are a bit weird in the city these days).

I'll just add this: I first thought this thread was about the old-school missionaries from centuries ago. Those guys were mean and just horrible! They came here to convert natives, called them "savages" and "barbarians"... Complete disregard for different beliefs and ways of life!

 

[snakelegs]

I've never actually had any kind of religious group come to my door. I was always ready to invite people in and serve them tea and cookies.

I'd still listen now as long as I don't feel they are attacking my personal beliefs... Oh, and I wouldn't let them in, they can stay at the door (things are a bit weird in the city these days).

I'll just add this: I first thought this thread was about the old-school missionaries from centuries ago. Those guys were mean and just horrible! They came here to convert natives, called them "savages" and "barbarians"... Complete disregard for different beliefs and ways of life!

the modern version has been radically updated and now they are much more sophisticated and smoothe. they are even tame!

 

[Isambard]

I never get anyone at my door

Whenever I tell someone trying to convince me Im an atheist they give me an uneasy look, drop a pamphlet and scurry off running...>.<

 

[Heera Singh]

(I haven't read most of the the posts so apologies if I've already repeated something somebody said)

Missionaries, whatever background they come from, are one thing that's wrong with 'religion'. Their whole reason of existence becomes to 'convince' another person that the faith that person believes in is wrong, and that their own faith (missionaries faith) is the right one. By doing this, they're putting so much negative spiritual baggage on their shoulders, and they don't even know it. A life of going door to door, telling people that 'your faith is wrong, our faith is right' so to speak, has no 'spirituality' in it at all. They think they're doing the Lords work, but really, they're just annoying people and taking 'backward' steps on the path to spirituality.

TRUE service of the lord is helping those that are needy, caring for those that have no care, feeding those that have no food, sheltering those that have no shelter. TRUE service of the Lord is SELFLESS service. Which means, you serve other people because you know they are a creation of the lord, you see the lord abiding in them too, and you want NO personal gain from that service; you're serving them for the Love of the Lord only.

For Example: People say Mother Teresa was such a great 'saint' because she went around helping people and what not. Now, don't get me wrong, she DID do a lot of service, but was it selfless?? Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic. She helped only people of her own faith, and only people that agreed to convert to her faith, otherwise they would not get assistance. Now, thats not really 'selfless' service, since she wanted something in return.

To be a TRUE servant of the lord, one must break all bonds of duality and worldliness, and see that God abides in every single creation, because GOD created the creation.

So, overall, missionaries in general, are arrogant to think they are doing Gods Work, and Intollerant of other faiths by basically proclaiming that the only 'real' faith is the one they're propogating.

Bless!

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/peace;

.... Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic. quote]


i read in newspapers that she served many Muslims . Don't know if later they became Christians or not.

may by ur charge is not true? Otherwise , why so many people respected her so much ?
Anyone from Calcutta ???

 

[Heera Singh]

Salaam/peace;

.... Mother Teresa would not help those that did not become catholic.

i read in newspapers that she served many Muslims . Don't know if later they became Christians or not.

may by ur charge is not true? Otherwise , why so many people respected her so much ?
Anyone from Calcutta ???

I could be completely wrong, but I've heard and read this a few places before... i'll see if i can find where i read this information...

if i'm wrong then I apologize and ask for forgiveness...