Channel 4 divorce sharia style?

[Heera Singh]

I'm here to learn ... maybe sum1 can enlighten me..

 

[Malaikah]

what is the point/necessity of having more then one wife?

why isn't a woman allowed to have more then 1 husband then?

where's the equality?

Equality doesn't mean treating men and women exactly the same, if that were the case then there would be oppression/injustice because it fails to take into account the different needs of men and women.

The simplest answer to your question is that if a women had multiple husbands the children would not know how their father is. A huge tragedy. (Some may say genetic testing but this has only become available recently and is still not available to most people in the world).

I'd like to quote some members who I think did a good job of explaining:

Can I try and answer this as a non-muslim who has often had this conversation with muslims? Also, as a bit of a feminist, some of these issues are quite dear to me. Here goes...

Equality does not mean that they are the same in every single aspect.

I always thought that they are equal, but in different ways. Men and women can (generally) do the same things, but in some cases, one gender can be better suited to carry out certain actions than the other. We are created equally, but complimentary to one another, as a team, we work better. It's a hard concept to explain. For example, even though women can train very hard to gain physical strength, men will be physically stronger if they put in the same effort. This doesn't mean some women aren't stronger than some men, but men and women's bodies are built differently.

As for the wife question, I have often wondered myself. There may be a few reasons. Here are some I have come up with:
Often men are the main breadwinners in the family (due to biological reasons: women cannot usually work for the entirety of their pregnancy and time to recover is needed. This can often affect you job/career and money coming in). So for a woman to have 1,2,3, etc husbands, it would put a lot of stress on her both biologically (constant pregnancies), socially (take care of children) and professionally (if she is often pregnant, then there is no time for work and money making). Men don't have to take time away from work when their family expands.
More along the line of biology, the survival of the species depends on procreation. The easiest way to procreate is to have a higher female:male ratio. It's basic biology and reproduction.
More on the social side: again, back to the breadwinner theory: Even though in many societies, women can and do work, in other societies it is not as readily accepted (now as was in the past). It can sometimes be very difficult for a woman to survive on her own if she is single, and even more if she is widowed. The situation in some countries is so bad that women have to resort to prostitution just to be able to feed their children. Marriage can be an option to alleviate this situation.

I hope I made some sense.

Polygamy (one man, many wives) often occurs when there is a higher female to male ratio amongst a poor population. The main reason for polygamy is that the man can provide for all his wives; if he is not able to do so, then he cannot marry another wife, under Islam.

Polyandery (one woman, many husbands) - very rare in the human world. It takes far more negative connotations than polygamy (which technically is advantageous to mankind all things considered...) since in essence reproduction is halted due to there being only one wife (I won't go into the details as this forum is PG rated).

The human male is given many characterstics that define it as dominant; physical strength is one of the major ones. There is another that I could mention but as this is pg rated, I cannot go into it. Thus, with this strength comes a much higher responsibility and so the male takes on the provider figure and a protector role. That is why the male is dominant - not because of the physical attribute, but the responsibility.

This is not to say that a female's role is completely irrelevant. No, quite the opposite. The female is essential to mankind - not just because of reproduction purposes (though that is considerably vital!) but through love, affection and various other emotions and actions. They have the ability to move us males on an emotional level that we barely knew existed! We need them more than they need us, I can tell you that for free!

So with both roles defined there is a clear responsibility to one another; both members have to look out for each other using their attributes etc. And because of the major differences between the two genders, there can never be true equality - but this is not an excuse for there to be no fairness or equity.

 

[aamirsaab]

Surely you're not insisting all negatives should be edited out and the postives alone aired?

Not all but the scene where the dude pretty much insulted his wife should in my opinion not have been in the final cut since it is a considerably personal matter which I doubt the two participants would want the entire world to know. But overall, they did do a good job on the explanations of divorce procedures that both male and female can take.

I didn't see this one, but I do recall watching a police series called 'Karachi Police' that was well cool. Beating the criminals with the truncheons yay!

Zor Se Maro Haan!!!

lol I think I saw something similar. Or it could have been a bollywood movie, not sure. Still, karachi police commiting random acts of violence always makes me laugh (note: I'm laughing at the stupidity of a karachi cop going nuts and being allowed to without question...unless you want a truncheon upside your head)

 

[Heera Singh]

I kno equality doesn't mean both genders are the 'exact' same... But in Islam is it ALLOWED for a woman to have more then one husband?? not that i've heard of..

if the whole argument of having more then one wife is 'the betterment of humanity' (i.e. procreation - more babies), then i think a better argument shud be articluated... for example, polygamy is 'looked down' upon in places like india and china.. yet they still have the highest populations in the world... in fact, china has a law that families can only have one son/one daughter, now... so, i don't think we're in a 'state of crisis' where we need to be poppin out babies left right and centre... we can barely maintain the population we have rite now..

$ex is a very sacred thing and it shud be only between A husbad and A wife... not between a husband and 2 or 3 wives.. honestly, to my sisters, wouldn't u find it nasty if ur husband is making love to you one day, and his other wife another day?? just the thought of it disgusts me...

u don't need to marry a woman to 'take care' of her.. sure, u can take her into ur home, feed her, clothe her, shelter her... i have no issues with that; tha's a service to her.. but there's no solid argument in regards to being able to sleep with her as well..

marriage is the communion of 2 souls; husband and wife... it shud stay in that way.. i'm surprised women in ttoday's society, especially in the wester world, are open to the idea of their husbands having more then one wife... it astounds me..

personally.. i feel this 'loophole' was put into place so that the population of Islam increases at a rate higher then others; like its some competition or somethin... and so that y'all can one day be most 'populous' and be a power so nobody can come against u.. tha's my honest opinion... i think i's also a way for MAN to live out his fantasy to have more then one partner, and not gettin in trouble for it...

if ur really concerned about the betterment of the world, why not adopt some kids from africa or middle east who now have no parents because of war/fighting? THAT would be a case of betterment to society... and u wud be doin a service to the Lord by helpin those that are helpless...

 

[H4RUN]

^Having said that, what's the ratio of men to women in the world? I'm not entirely sure, but have a fair idea. If A man was to marry A woman, then many A woman will be left Alone without A husband. Now if my brief touching upon population genders was correct, and if i remember correctly, there is not a 50/50 [or there abouts] value of women and men in the world. IF there was, then A man and A woman would be a perfect scenario, but such is not life.
Peace

 

[Malaikah]

if the whole argument of having more then one wife is 'the betterment of humanity' (i.e. procreation - more babies), then i think a better argument shud be articluated... for example, polygamy is 'looked down' upon in places like india and china.. yet they still have the highest populations in the world... in fact, china has a law that families can only have one son/one daughter, now... so, i don't think we're in a 'state of crisis' where we need to be poppin out babies left right and centre... we can barely maintain the population we have rite now..

But so what? :? The world hasn't always been that way and will not always be that way. We can't eliminate polygamy forever more just because of something recent that's happening in China.

$ex is a very sacred thing and it shud be only between A husbad and A wife... not between a husband and 2 or 3 wives.. honestly, to my sisters, wouldn't u find it nasty if ur husband is making love to you one day, and his other wife another day?? just the thought of it disgusts me...

Right, just like eating bread with no topping makes me want to vomit, doesn't mean I have to forbid it from others who have no problem with it.

It's simply, if a Muslim women doesn't want her husband to take a second wife, then she should put in her marriage contract. Just because she doesn't like it, doesn't mean everyone has to do what she wants.

Oh, and if by "between a husband and 2 or 3 wives" you are implying that there will be two women with the man at the same time, that's totally wrong and unlawful! He can only be with one at a time. Get my drift? No need for explicit detail I hope.

u don't need to marry a woman to 'take care' of her.. sure, u can take her into ur home, feed her, clothe her, shelter her... i have no issues with that; tha's a service to her.. but there's no solid argument in regards to being able to sleep with her as well..

It would be very uncomfortable to take a strange women into your house. Neither person would be comfortable at all! They can't be alone together, they both have to cover up (which is a problem especially for the wife). What's it to anyone else if they share a bed or not??

As a Muslim woman I can say it would a nightmare to live in a house with strange men!

Anyway, by marrying a woman the man can take her of her way better than if they don't marry. Especially since there will be something missing in the woman's life that only marriage can solve.

marriage is the communion of 2 souls; husband and wife... it shud stay in that way.. i'm surprised women in ttoday's society, especially in the wester world, are open to the idea of their husbands having more then one wife... it astounds me..

And it is their choice and they deserve to be respected for it.

And in polygamy it is still a connection of two souls, husband and wife. It just so happens that the man can have more than one connection.

personally.. i feel this 'loophole' was put into place so that the population of Islam increases at a rate higher then others; like its some competition or somethin... and so that y'all can one day be most 'populous' and be a power so nobody can come against u.. tha's my honest opinion... i think i's also a way for MAN to live out his fantasy to have more then one partner, and not gettin in trouble for it...

What an incredible fantasy, having multiple nagging wives. Seriously though, there is more to marriage than 'fantasies'.

Oh, and by the way, this is hardly a loophole of any kind. Polygamy was already a very common practise in Arabia udring the time when Islam came. Islam did not introduce polygamy. At that time men could marry as many women as they wanted, divorce them when ever they felt like and basically do as they please! Islam came to stop that, and also place a restriction on the number of wives a man could have!

So it is wrong to think that Islam came and somehow made up this four wives rule to increase the freedom of men, rather it restricted it.

if ur really concerned about the betterment of the world, why not adopt some kids from africa or middle east who now have no parents because of war/fighting? THAT would be a case of betterment to society... and u wud be doin a service to the Lord by helpin those that are helpless...

I have no problems with adopting kids. In fact, it is greatly encouraged in Islam. And just because a family might be polygamous, doesn't mean they can't adopt as well.

Hey, I mean, just imagine how many extra kids could be adopted if there were more mothers in the family to look after them!

 

[Heera Singh]

its funny how u completely ignored my first comment..

I kno equality doesn't mean both genders are the 'exact' same... But in Islam is it ALLOWED for a woman to have more then one husband?? not that i've heard of..

We can't eliminate polygamy forever more just because of something recent that's happening in China.

The china and india growth development is not recent, its been stemming for centuries. In fact, one of the biggest causes for loss of life in asia and africa is due to aids; one of main causes of aids being polygamy.

Right, just like eating bread with no topping makes me want to vomit, doesn't mean I have to forbid it from others who have no problem with it.

umm.. ur comparing eating bread to intercourse? i won't even go there. By the way, I am in no way 'forbidding' anything; i'm nobody to give orders. I'm simply asking questions and trying to understand the mindset of muslims (especially muslim women) to encourage/accept polygamy.

Oh, and if by "between a husband and 2 or 3 wives" you are implying that there will be two women with the man at the same time, that's totally wrong and unlawful! He can only be with one at a time. Get my drift? No need for explicit detail I hope.

No, tha's nah what i was implying.

It would be very uncomfortable to take a strange women into your house. Neither person would be comfortable at all! They can't be alone together, they both have to cover up (which is a problem especially for the wife). What's it to anyone else if they share a bed or not??

And it wud be less strange to take her in and sleep with her, with your other wife in the other room? That's only the case if you don't look at her as your sister. A man should look at women (other then his wife) as daughters, sisters, or mothers (dependin on their age of course). If he abided by this, then there would be no problem. I agree, that its nobody's business. Thats not what i'm discussin here. I'm discussin the morality and the whole 'point'/'reason' behind it and how it constitutes 'equality'.

Anyway, by marrying a woman the man can take her of her way better than if they don't marry.

Are you assuming that a woman can't maintain herself?

Especially since there will be something missing in the woman's life that only marriage can solve.

I'm sure there isn't any shortage of men in the world. In fact, there are more men then women in the world, which means there's more then enough 'fish in the sea' for women. There's approximately 40 million more men then women in the world. I will find the source for that info if u want.

Oh, and by the way, this is hardly a loophole of any kind. Polygamy was already a very common practise in Arabia udring the time when Islam came. Islam did not introduce polygamy. At that time men could marry as many women as they wanted, divorce them when ever they felt like and basically do as they please! Islam came to stop that, and also place a restriction on the number of wives a man could have!

Nowhere have i stated that polygamy was started with Islam. Yes, it WAS very common (outsie of marriage), which is a shame. Christians, 650 years earlier, forbade sex outside marriage (polygamy), and Jews before that forbade it as well. The loophole i'm talkin bout is making it 'legal' in MARRIAGE. I don't think your comment about marrying as many as they wanted and divorcing them is accurate, as christians aren't 'allowed' to divorce. Islam didn't 'stop' polygamy, they jus 'reduced' the number of wives a person can have. In fact, I would argue that there's been an INCREASE in polygamy due to islam, since it is seen as okay.

I have no problems with adopting kids. In fact, it is greatly encouraged in Islam. And just because a family might be polygamous, doesn't mean they can't adopt as well.

My comment was made because of an earlier comment (i dunno if it was by you or sum1 else) in regards to having big families. There are tens millions of kids in Africa and Middle East and Asia who won't live for more then a few months more because of their conditions. If the excuse given for polygamy is to have big families, 1 husband and 1 wife can adopt many kids, who otherwise have little chance of living in their present conditions, and keep the population of the world increasing.

 

[Heera Singh]

^Having said that, what's the ratio of men to women in the world? I'm not entirely sure, but have a fair idea. If A man was to marry A woman, then many A woman will be left Alone without A husband. Now if my brief touching upon population genders was correct, and if i remember correctly, there is not a 50/50 [or there abouts] value of women and men in the world. IF there was, then A man and A woman would be a perfect scenario, but such is not life.
Peace

Actually, there are more men in the world then women. So there would be no shortage of men to 'choose' from.

 

[aamirsaab]

We have a search function on this forum. It's so good that I even found the exact post that talks about polygamy.
click me
Continue on that thread if you really must. This thread is about divorce, sharia style. Which, strangely, is in the title of the thread.

 

[Malaikah]

its funny how u completely ignored my first comment..

Not really... there was simply nothing left to say. But if you want more...

God made the law that man can have up to four wives and that women can have only one husband. God knows His creation better than the creation know themselves and if He says that this is what works best than He is right and we accept that even if it doesn't make sense to us.

The china and india growth development is not recent, its been stemming for centuries. In fact, one of the biggest causes for loss of life in asia and africa is due to aids; one of main causes of aids being polygamy.

China and India are only two countries, the world is bigger than that, and I thought the main cause of AIDS was people sleeping around and waiting until they marry, not polygamy!

And it wud be less strange to take her in and sleep with her, with your other wife in the other room?

Other house, you mean. Each wife gets her own house.

Are you assuming that a woman can't maintain herself?

No I'm not. But many women can't maintain themselves, maybe not as much with the younger generation of women city areas of the western world, but certainly in the rest of the world were women are pressured into working, especially if they are single mothers.

I'm sure there isn't any shortage of men in the world. In fact, there are more men then women in the world, which means there's more then enough 'fish in the sea' for women. There's approximately 40 million more men then women in the world. I will find the source for that info if u want.

There are many times in history were there have been shortages of men. For example, early Islamic history, the Muslims were constantly involved in battles, people were attacking them left, right and centre and many, many men died as a result.

Anyway, there may not be a shortage of men, but there certainly may be a shortage of men who are willing to marry, say, a widow or divorcee who has young children.

But it doesn't matter, shortage of men or not, polygamy it is still permissible.

Nowhere have i stated that polygamy was started with Islam. Yes, it WAS very common (outsie of marriage), which is a shame. Christians, 650 years earlier, forbade sex outside marriage (polygamy),

Polygamy IS marriage! :hiding:

The loophole i'm talkin bout is making it 'legal' in MARRIAGE.

It was very much legal, at least in the Arab world!

I don't think your comment about marrying as many as they wanted and divorcing them is accurate, as christians aren't 'allowed' to divorce.

The world isn't made up of only Jews, Christians and Muslims. I was referring to the people in the Arabian peninsula who were almost all idolaters. they used to have many wives. And it is perfectly accurate when I say they used to marry as many as they want and divorce them as they please (and take them back as they please too, they even used to inherit them).

Islam didn't 'stop' polygamy, they jus 'reduced' the number of wives a person can have.

That is what I said. Oh, and I forgot to mention Islam also put the condition that men must be able to treat them justly, or else they can't marry more than one.

In fact, I would argue that there's been an INCREASE in polygamy due to islam, since it is seen as okay.

Proof? Got any stats? And anyway, so what if it did? As long as those families are happy with the arrangement them I'm cool with it.

My comment was made because of an earlier comment (i dunno if it was by you or sum1 else) in regards to having big families. There are tens millions of kids in Africa and Middle East and Asia who won't live for more then a few months more because of their conditions. If the excuse given for polygamy is to have big families, 1 husband and 1 wife can adopt many kids, who otherwise have little chance of living in their present conditions, and keep the population of the world increasing.

Yeh, and polygamy does not stop that! You can't try to argue against polygamy by saying there are orphans in the world, it is like saying people are immoral for having their own kids when there are orphans without parents. It's not right.

 

[Heera Singh]

the Muslims were constantly involved in battles, people were attacking them left, right and centre and many, many men died as a result.

are you sure about that? you might want to brush up on your history...

i will not continue this conversation in this thread, as moderator saab has pointed out another thread (which i will read later on)... and we are goin off topic in this thread (my fault since i posed the original question)

Bless!

 

[Malaikah]

I know my own history, thank you. And you are right, this is off topic.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

lol I think I saw something similar. Or it could have been a bollywood movie, not sure. Still, karachi police commiting random acts of violence always makes me laugh (note: I'm laughing at the stupidity of a karachi cop going nuts and being allowed to without question...unless you want a truncheon upside your head)

Random yes, sometimes it's rquired. If the police beat the crap out of the chavs who attack/steal/murder innocent people here in England, I think we'd see a lot less of it. IMO :grumbling