Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

[Heera Singh]

I don't believe that differs from one religion to the next

I don't totally agree with that statement... although some principles may be similar in all faiths, there are many that don't..

For example, the Sikh Rehat Maryada forbids alcohol, meat, removing of hair from the body, and sex before marriage..

eating Meat and removing hair and to some extent consumption of alcohol isn't against the belief of many faiths..

Also, Sikhs (real sikhs, not those who call themselves sikhs jus for the sake of being labelled) are mandated to be baptised and wear 5 articles of faith... this does not hold the same for other faiths as well..

as for a Law of Governance, there is not one..

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

a 'law of conduct' is more in concert with aqeeda (creed), the humane aspect of every day living and I don't believe that differs from one religion to the next, I am pretty sure you can even get some atheists to agree on the bulk of its values as they will be centered around the original ten commandaments.. however, an established system of govt. is something all together different. That is what sharia law is.. it is basically law under an islamic state.. people need to go to school for it, just as the westerners go to school to study the American or french Constitution, amendments, and jurisprudence!

after imperialism and the dissolution of the Muslim empire you'll find most countries govern by french Constitution.. countries like Egypt, Lebanon, etc.. a bunch of fogies have sat down and wrote some laws sometime around the 18th century and that is what so-called 'Muslim countries' now implement in lieu of God's law!

frankly there are texts upon texts of jurisprudence, not simply from the Quran but hadith as well. I haven't seen a comprable system save for Judaism, unless you can show me intricacies of the law under sikhism, I don't see how the two can be compared?!

peace

So sister is the stoning to death not permitted in Islam? or is it the fogies who concoted them? I'm not in the know here.

Bhai Heera has given you the reply on Sikhi law

Here is the list which is also to be observed.

i). Naam Japna - Meditation on God's Name and the recital of the holy scriptures:


a). To arise in the early hours and recite Gurbani in the morning (Five Banis), evening (Rehras) and night (Kirtan Sohila) followed each time with the Ardas prayer. To remember God at all times and to recite his name whenever possible. (Naam Simran)

b). Seek only the support of the Almighty Lord before beginning any new task or venture. (Ardas)
ii. Kirat Karni - Leading ones life in accordance with the Guru's teachings:


a). Engage in a honest profession or other work or study course.

b). Promote the family way of life giving time to children in an active way so as to ensure their proper awareness of the Sikh way of life.

c). To live humbly and with love in an extended family group encouraging Gurmat principles and offering moral support within this extended structure.
iii. Sewa – Undertake free voluntary service within the community at Gurdwaras, community projects, hospitals, old peoples homes, nurseries, etc.

a). At every opportunity to spend ones free time to free community work and devote at least 10% of ones wealth in time or money to support community projects.

b). To positively support weaker members within the community.
iv). Disciplined Life:
The Sikh is commanded by the Gurus to lead a disciplined life and to not follow blindly rituals and superstitions which bring no spiritual or material benefit to the person or community.


A). Follow the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and take part in the Sikh Ceremonies.

B). Eat simple food in moderation and refrain from any food or drink that causes determent to the body or mind like alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc.

C). Refrain from rituals, superstitions and other anti-Sikh behaviour such as gambling, etc.

D). Apart from ones wife (or Husband) to treat all or females (or males) as daughters, sisters or mothers (sons, brothers or fathers) depending on their age.

E). To practise and promote complete equality between the genders; castes; races, religions, etc.

 

[جوري]

I don't totally agree with that statement... although some principles may be similar in all faiths, there are many that don't..

For example, the Sikh Rehat Maryada forbids alcohol, meat, removing of hair from the body, and sex before marriage..

eating Meat and removing hair and to some extent consumption of alcohol isn't against the belief of many faiths..

Also, Sikhs (real sikhs, not those who call themselves sikhs jus for the sake of being labelled) are mandated to be baptised and wear 5 articles of faith... this does not hold the same for other faiths as well..

as for a Law of Governance, there is not one..

I am not going to discuss minor nuances of your religion, My best friend is sikh, I consider her religious (prays/wears your articles, is a virgin and attends gurdwara for prayers), but she drinks alcohol and eats meat.. that aside..
I believe that Avar wanted accomadation of a 'sikh way of Govt.', and my argument is, aside from the basic principles of your religion which any so-called secular govt. has to respect, there really is no system to adhere to. Thus it makes no difference if you are living under, 'democracy' 'oligarachy', 'socialism', 'communism'-- The only other so-called religion run system of Govt. is in Judaism and they don't implement it in Israel.. theirs too is a secular state and I believe that is the way they want it until their 'moschiach' makes an entry.

For Muslims a system of Govt. has already been established, and was impelemented for centuries until its dissolution. I doubt it can be combined with another existing system, surely there are many clashes of ideals..


cheers

 

[جوري]

So sister is the stoning to death not permitted in Islam?

it depends.. pre-marital vs. extramrital, as well as producing 4 number of witnesses.. Again. there is an established law, that isn't to be implemented at someone's whimsy!

or is it the fogies who concoted them? I'm not in the know here.

see above reply!

Bhai Heera has given you the reply on Sikhi law

Here is the list which is also to be observed.

i). Naam Japna - Meditation on God's Name and the recital of the holy scriptures:
Meditation isn't govt.

a). To arise in the early hours and recite Gurbani in the morning (Five Banis), evening (Rehras) and night (Kirtan Sohila) followed each time with the Ardas prayer. To remember God at all times and to recite his name whenever possible. (Naam Simran)

b). Seek only the support of the Almighty Lord before beginning any new task or venture. (Ardas)
ii. Kirat Karni - Leading ones life in accordance with the Guru's teachings:


a). Engage in a honest profession or other work or study course.

b). Promote the family way of life giving time to children in an active way so as to ensure their proper awareness of the Sikh way of life.

c). To live humbly and with love in an extended family group encouraging Gurmat principles and offering moral support within this extended structure.
iii. Sewa – Undertake free voluntary service within the community at Gurdwaras, community projects, hospitals, old peoples homes, nurseries, etc.

a). At every opportunity to spend ones free time to free community work and devote at least 10% of ones wealth in time or money to support community projects.

b). To positively support weaker members within the community.
iv). Disciplined Life:
The Sikh is commanded by the Gurus to lead a disciplined life and to not follow blindly rituals and superstitions which bring no spiritual or material benefit to the person or community.


A). Follow the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and take part in the Sikh Ceremonies.

B). Eat simple food in moderation and refrain from any food or drink that causes determent to the body or mind like alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc.

C). Refrain from rituals, superstitions and other anti-Sikh behaviour such as gambling, etc.

D). Apart from ones wife (or Husband) to treat all or females (or males) as daughters, sisters or mothers (sons, brothers or fathers) depending on their age.

E). To practise and promote complete equality between the genders; castes; races, religions, etc.

that isn't a system of govt. These are tenets of your religion.. and again, doesn't differ much from any other religion.. if you are going to get very picky with minor practices, carrying a comb vs. wearing a yamaka that differ from creed to creed is a negligible detail and has nothing whatsoever to do with the law...

peace

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

But that is our LAW!

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

it depends.. pre-marital vs. extramrital, as well as producing 4 number of witnesses.. Again. there is an established law, that isn't to be implemented at someone's whimsy!

Peace

I (and many others) find this particular rule very sexist. - Why is it not permitted for a woman who has been raped to say so. without producing four witnesses. Do you think the perp will provide an audience?

Also it's been stated you don't have women in the judical process because If she's going through her Menstruation It'll affect her mind. Hmmm. How demeaning! Do you as a women not percieve it his way?

 

[جوري]

But that is our LAW!

that is creed dear Avar, not jurisprudence..
Just the mere fact that you've summed it all in one page, should already tell you, that it doesn't equate with law..

people need to go to Islamic law school to implement Islamic Govt. It isn't merely a basic set of tenets!
browse any number of the book titles listed below to get an idea of just how expansive it is!

peace

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[AvarAllahNoor]

I am not going to discuss minor nuances of your religion, My best friend is sikh, I consider her religious (prays/wears your articles, is a virgin and attends gurdwara for prayers), but she drinks alcohol and eats meat.. that aside..

cheers

Minor? this isn't minor! She's not a Amritdhari (Baptised) if she's drinking and eating meat.

Not saying she's less of a Sikh, but it's not permissble in Sikhi do be a partime Sikh.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I have no intention of reading these publications. If you're here to fly the flag for sharia law, you'll provide the appropriate material for inspection in this here thread.

 

[جوري]

B]I (and many others) find this particular rule very sexist. - Why is it not permitted for a woman who has been raped to say so. without producing four witnesses. Do you think the perp will provide an audience?

I truly have no idea what you are talking about? or where you are coming up with this? There was a time when if a man so much as lifted a women's skirt to humiliate her a whole army would rise in her defense!

Also it's been stated you don't have women in the judical process because of she's going through her Menstruation It'll affect her mind. Hmmm. How demeaning! Do you as a women not percieve it his way?[/B]

We have had women in the judicial system, I assure you, merely browsing through this forum will yeild search results for you!
peace

 

[جوري]

I have no intention of reading these publications. If you're here to fly the flag for sharia law, you'll provide the appropriate material for inspection in this here thread.

I don't understand what that means?
other than that, I couldn't give you a fatwa one way or the other, I went to medical school, not Islamic law school..
I am sure there are a number of members here who have and can shed light on a particular matter.. I am not going to cite rule number 584385 in the matter of 584958 and the subheading of 45u7984359 of so vs. so

and I don't think I am under any obligation to!

peace

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

There was a time when if a man so much as lifted a women's skirt to humiliate her a whole army would rise in her defense!

Well in a civilised society it's what still happens.

We have had women in the judicial system, I assure you, merely browsing through this forum will yeild search results for you!

This was on the radio. Not taken from any forums. Enlighten me.

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

I don't understand what that means?
other than that, I couldn't give you a fatwa one way or the other, I went to medical school, not Islamic law school..
I am sure there are a number of members here who have and can shed light on a particular matter.. I am not going to cite rule number 584385 in the matter of 584958 and the subheading of 45u7984359 of so vs. so

and I don't think I am under any obligation to!

peace

Then why go all 'ape' over it if you're not going to shed light on it, or will it only add more weight to my facts?

 

[جوري]

[

B]Well in a civilised society it's what still happens.[/B]

what happens?

This was on the radio. Not taken from any forums. Enlighten me.

what was on the radio?

peace

 

[snakelegs]

For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.

i don't really see the big deal here. i think in new york, jews have their own courts for stuff like the above and it hasn't hurt anybody.

 

[جوري]

Then why go all 'ape' over it if you're not going to shed light on it, or will it only add more weight to my facts?

I don't see how it could? You are arguing for implementation of a system to not be left behind as a miniority, a system that your religion has in fact failed to establish for you to be remotely upset that one group will be accomadated over you..

as for intricacies on jurisprudence.. I am not really sure what you want to know of it?
will reading an article on the web covering Henoch-Schönlein Purpura or Lindner bodies in cells infected with trachoma make you an expert in medicine?

carry that analogy through when discussing law and jurisprudence.

peace

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

What was on the radio?

I was listening to the James Whale show. He's had Muslims on the radio and he's discussing this sharia law issue.

What happens?

In a civilised society there would be an uproar for the izzat (honour) of a woman. OK, we fall short of declaring war...

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

as for intricacies on jurisprudence.. I am not really sure what you want to know of it?
will reading an article on the web covering Henoch-Schönlein Purpura or Lindner bodies in cells infected with trachoma make you an expert in medicine?

Carry that analogy through when discussing law and jurisprudence.

peace

Well it'll shed light on the matter....or is everything on the net fabricated...

I don't see how it could? You are arguing for implementation of a system to not be left behind as a miniority, a system that your religion has in fact failed to establish for you to be remotely upset that one group will be accomadated over you..

Emigrate to to the Panjab, you'll see how Sikhi law is implemented. If you and others want shariah, go to and reside in Sudan, Iran, SA, Qatar, (many others) you'll have laws to live by that meet your criteria....

Gur Fateh

 

[Heera Singh]

Eve.. don't you find it very unfair for a woman who has been raped, to have produce 4 male witnesses? In fact, i think the people who should be 'stoned' are those 4 males who watched her get raped and didn't do anything about it...

those 4 people who wouldn't do anything while their fellow sister is getting raped, are nothing more then cowards...

 

[AvarAllahNoor]

Eve.. don't you find it very unfair for a woman who has been raped, to have produce 4 male witnesses? In fact, i think the people who should be 'stoned' are those 4 males who watched her get raped and didn't do anything about it...

those 4 people who wouldn't do anything while their fellow sister is getting raped, are nothing more then cowards...

One woman was given lashes for being raped! I mean what is going on when you're punished for someody raping YOU! Ya Allah!