Evolution Test!

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Do you believe in Evolution?

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johan said:
I think you need to abstract a little bit further my friend.
May be here's a site to give you a little bit of where i'm going with this mathematical thingy wingy..

www.superstringtheory.com

And here's my paraphrasing of this mathemetical thingy wingy.. :
In the scientific field of phyiscs, were currently at a point where our resources are at the limits in terms of "energy creation". This "energy creation" is needed in order to prove or disprove theories associated to the creation of the entire universe. So we needed a way around this disability.

The most promising alternative is through mathematics.
Through mathematics we could "simulate" the physical behavior of the world.
Through mathematics we could explain how at it's basic and most fundamental elements of the world interact with each other forming all this complex components around us and their interactions.


How did I come about to say that? please enlighten me. :)
On the contrary, we could derive(come to a better understanding) the way cells interact with each other when we have the right model to simulate the happenings.
By understanding the way each and every agent in the system interact with each other be it at a molecular level or at an atomic level or at a subatomic level and beyond.
Surely the more precision in the model the better it will provide us with feedbacks. And a better way for us to control and manipulate.

regards,
Johan
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We are not discussing superstrings (physics) we are discussing abiogenesis (chemistry) and evolution (biology) which is my point. I'm trying to stay on topic.

All I want to know is: Is it easily possible to understand how cell membranes (empty cells) form? Yes or No?

Creationists have right along been saying it's impossible for us to know that. I need an answer to my question, to see if that was another lie or not.
 
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Dr.Trax said:
1) Have scientists determined what the "first" lifeform was like? If so, what was it's characteristics?

Not Evolutionists..............
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The thread title says evolution doesn't it? Nobody said they've determined the first lifeform, and you can't tell me what your definition of lifeform is.

We aren't selling anything, we have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to point out that you're just pasting pages of rubbish.
 
Why cant God have just created life to evolve?



(Apart from that this idea would trash all scripture)

:)
 
Azy said:
We aren't selling anything, we have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to point out that you're just pasting pages of rubbish.
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I've given up. All you can do is politely suggest to Dr Trax that he at least reads around the subject enough to understand both sides of the argument; a necessity for putting up much of a case either way. If he prefers to just cut n' paste endless reams of Yahya-drivel there isn't really much point in trying to engage in debate.
 
Azy said:
The thread title says evolution doesn't it? Nobody said they've determined the first lifeform, and you can't tell me what your definition of lifeform is.

We aren't selling anything, we have absolutely nothing to gain from trying to point out that you're just pasting pages of rubbish.
Click to expand...


SEE MY SIGNATURE!
 
Dr. Trax, I'd love for you to take a bit of time out from reading www.isnt-creationism-great.com and try looking at what people who actually study the world have written, you know, in scientific papers and not in christian/muslim sponsored magazines.

Scientists have no reason to try and disprove creation, science is just an attempt to describe what we see, it doesn't have an agenda and doesn't need to make up stories. If what people find contradicts what you believe, you should at least give the options a fair chance. You could even see these fossils and other discoveries if you wanted, not something that you could really do with the garden of eden.
 
I have a funny feeling he isn't a real doctor either ;)

or even out of school.
 
Science101 said:
I can't help but notice the:

www.harunyahya.com

Goes very well with the cut-and-paste junk from his get-rich-quick website.

Do you get paid for spamming forums?
Click to expand...

It seems you have problem with your eyes!
Maybe I can help you if you want?
Again look there at a big verse?What did you see!?
Don't tell me that you saw a blue line!:D
The firs word goes like this:He is Allah
 No spamming here...........aha,another problem:Your Brain!
 
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Science101 said:
We are not discussing superstrings (physics) we are discussing abiogenesis (chemistry) and evolution (biology) which is my point. I'm trying to stay on topic.

All I want to know is: Is it easily possible to understand how cell membranes (empty cells) form? Yes or No?

Creationists have right along been saying it's impossible for us to know that. I need an answer to my question, to see if that was another lie or not.
Click to expand...

That would take time to research..:D
Until then, I would stick to my beliefs.
Good luck with your search.

regards,
Abu 'Ammar
 
I already had it posted in this forum!
And in the US it's now an experiment performed in public schools.

http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/49063-how-make-cell-membranes-science-experiment.html

How cell membranes (and other parts of the cell) self-assemble is so simple to understand kids now know how to demonstrate it! But Creationists are still saying this cannot be understood!!!!

Science101 said:
Self-Assembly Of Real Cell Membranes Experiment

Experiment by Science101

Description:

When we see a cell membrane in a biology textbook it looks like each of the molecules had to be one by one purposely placed there then somehow bonded into place. But that is not the case.

In this experiment a small amount of egg yolk provides the cell membrane forming molecules so that with a shake we amazingly "self-assemble" real cell membranes around oil and water droplets to demonstrate how easily polar forces construct such an important part of a living thing. These same membrane forming compounds (amphiphiles) can also be found coming from deep sea hydrothermal vents and were found in a meteorite from outer space but an egg is much easier to get them from.

We will with our own eyes witness the fascinating life-giving properties of simple molecules being guided by the forces of nature which make even parts of cells miraculously all come together on their own. This is origin of life science at its best! :happy:




Materials:

125 ml flask with stopper, or suitable jar with lid. A larger volume container is OK, roughly adjust proportions for 2/3 full.
Cooking oil.
1 egg
Egg-dish or other small volume bowl shaped container.
Eyedropper or small spoon
Water




Procedure:

Add 100 ml of water to flask. To that add 25 ml of oil.

Cover then shake for a second or two. Mixture should at first appear milky but quickly start separating.

While waiting for the oil to return to a clear layer on top, crack open the egg then place in small bowl. Notice that the egg yolk is a single giant cell which gravity turns so that the white spot, the nucleus containing the DNA, points upwards. The yellow yolk that (if it were fertilized) feeds the developing chicken contains among other fats and oily compounds, phospholipid molecules that form strong flexible cell membranes.

By now the oil should have formed a clear layer on top. We first shook it to prove that it will do this. Notice that it is pure oil that can be seen through to the other side.

Now squeeze the eyedropper, plunge halfway into the egg yolk like a syringe, get a sample, then add one drop into the flask. If using a spoon then carefully dig out a small amount of yolk, then drip one small drop into flask. Adding too much can cause the oil to form such small droplets that it becomes a colloid, like milk.

The drop of yolk will fall through the oil but float on the water so you can see it stuck in the middle. Shake for a second or two like before.

Now watch what happens to the oil layer this time. It should soon look like a giant piece of tissue, like you're looking at cells under a microscope but in this case you see them with your own eyes! The less dense ones that contain only oil and have a phospholipid monolayer around them, go to the top. The smaller phospholipid bilayer vesicles are even more like living cells and contain water inside. They would be at the bottom of the layer, with some moving in the thermal convection currents of the water. If they picked up particles of something heavy such as from clay or iron then they will sink to the bottom.



How it Works:

Polar forces between water molecules pull them together as if they are attracted like magnets, providing a force which squeezes the nonpolar (hydrophobic, like they are afraid of water) oil out of solution. That is why oil and water do not mix. Oil is less dense so it heads towards the top. If oil were heavier than water then it would form a layer at the bottom.

Phospholipid molecules form membranes due to their having one end called a "head" which is attracted to the polar water, and on the other end are two hydrocarbon "tails" which are attracted to the nonpolar oil. Shown below is a phospholipid molecule. The carbon atoms of the tails are black while the hydrogen atoms are light purple. The head (shown as a single large sphere for clarity) contains phosphorus, nitrogen, oxygen, carbon and hydrogen.




Phospholipids will form a single "monolayer" membrane around an oil droplet due to the nonpolar "hydrophobic" tails being attracted to the oil while the water loving polar "hydrophilic" heads point outward to contact the water. This is what we saw forming in the oil layer of this experiment.



A phospholipid membrane that forms around a small droplet of water (instead of oil) is called a "Vesicle" or "Liposome". Vesicles have a phospholipid "bilayer" where instead of a single membrane with all the tails stuck into an oil droplet there is a second inner membrane where the phospholipid molecules point the other way, with their heads contact the water droplet on the inside. The tails of the inner membrane are strongly attracted to the tails of the outer membrane, squeezing out anything that tries to come between them.



Vesicles are about the size of a red blood cell. And believe it or not under the right natural (or lab) conditions vesicles even grow and divide without the aid of a genome! Vesicles are now in the spotlight of origin of life science due to being easily naturally produced in nature and their already possessing some of the remarkable properties of living cells including growth and division. They do after all start off with a real cell membrane like cells in our body have and will readily attract other molecules into the membrane such as cholesterol that will improve its performance. Since there is cholesterol in egg yolk the vesicles that were formed will contain it too.

Vesicles are also very good at trapping particles and large molecules including RNA and DNA. This might have ended up included inside some of the vesicles in your experiment, especially if you poked through the egg yolk's nucleus when you took the sample or the water you used already contained some.

Vesicles do not possess all of the requirements to be considered "life" but all by themselves they are still surprisingly "life-like". So if by chance you think you saw something very small slowly moving around inside your flask, then maybe you did!

Soap works much the same way. Soap has molecules very similar to phospholipids with only one tail. They do not form bilayer vesicles so they cannot self-assemble into a cell membrane, but the same kind of membrane shown surrounding the oil droplet also forms around sticky dirt so that it will easily go down the drain without resticking to something else. The tails are also attracted to each other. When in water they clump together with their tails inside the mass with their heads pointing outwards. These are called "Micelles". Soap is readily self-assemble into micelles while phospholipids in water readily self-assemble into bilayer vesicles.


More Things To Do:

Flask can be reshaken to attempt making a higher population of smaller membrane enclosed oil droplets and vesicles, in essence, replicate some of the ones that are there. More egg yolk will further decrease size but cloud water.

The contents can be poured into a clear tray-like vessel to spread out the oil layer. More water can be added to make the bottom easier to see. Iron filings or other heavy particles are then sprinkled onto it. As the particles pass through the oil-membrane-water interface (shake a little if they get stuck) they are first coated with oil, then pick up a membrane, and after passing into the water quickly sink to the bottom where they will stay.

Use two flasks or jars, equally shaken, with only one containing egg yolk so that the two results can at the same time be compared.

A 2000 ml flask or fishbowl with aquarium pump and airstone can be used to swirl them around like lipid-cell pets. With luck you will form strong ones and can watch them bump into each other without breaking apart, while new ones will form out of the churning oil.

Container can be left to see how long the membranes stay stable, but in time will likely begin to rot while building up pressure inside vessel so do not cover so tightly air under pressure cannot escape.
Click to expand...
 
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I liked it! But since I already knew about it, I might not count.
 
snakelegs said:
i have bred snakes and still keep them.
some boas and pythons have vestigal limbs. i've seen them with my own eyes.
for those not fortunate enough to have a handy dandy python or boa to look at, here is a pic:
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Well, that explains your user name. Now where oh where have your snake legs gone? Did they confer a selective disadvantage after being initially advantageous to evolve in the first place?
 
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