[EMBRYOLOGY] Bones and flesh

[Whatsthepoint]

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/53113-understanding-qur-s-literary-challenge.html
Please do provide other pieces of literature which have had the same amount of influence world wide, which challenges others to bring something similar to it, while never being matched.

Interesting. Not conclusive though.
I don't really know any other book that challenges the public to produce a match, so I can't answer your question. teh Bible has had greater wordwide impact than the Quran, I'm not sure it was unmatched seeing that they had to gather a couple of years long council on which books to include.. Perhaps the psalms or other poetic parts of the OT are unmatchable. Or the revelation, I don't think there have been other versions of Revelation other than the one in the canon.
Well, you said it yourself, absense of proof is not proof of absence.

 

[Imam]

Several of your ideas need a comment

No, I don't believe in a god, in fact I strongly doubt such being exists. But due to alck of evidence on either side I am an agnostic..

there is no lack of evidence

the Quran mentions some unseen claims eg;

God,paradise,angels,day of judgment,how the unseen embryo develope, all of the objects in the Universes are swimming in space,The Spherical Shape Of The Earth , mountains work as stabilizers for the earth, Lack of Oxygen in space , the fulfilled prophecy in 30:2-4 etc...

I never verified paradise,angels,day of judgment.......it is still unseen for us
but I verified the other (could be verified in modern times) quranic claims,

in other words if the Quranic words to be trusted in the scientific issues that scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time, so it is fair to trust the whole Quranic packet of the other unseen issues.....

I'm even less confident about god posting his thoughts in a single language, like arabic for insatnce, and expect everyone to learn it .

who said you have to learn it !!!! ......

you could easily read the translations,and if there is verse that seems to be vague even with translation,you could consult dictionary to look up all its meanings....

I'm not so sure about god punishing sinners.

that is justice my friend...

He Who will render to every man according to his deeds,the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.......

I'm quite certain though that a just god does not punish unbelievers though simply for their lack of "proper" belief..

the Question why they lack "proper" belief.?

is it their arrogance,and being stubborn to the proofs of the validity of such proofs ,or they were misinformed,getting a deformed image of the message?


one Quranic verse when I read,comes such question in my mind:

while talking about the christians fate ,day of judgment:

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

If Thou punish them, lo! they are Thy slaves, and if Thou forgive them . Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Mighty, the Wise.

Allah will say: "[B]This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth[/B]: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).

the verse doesn't say This is a day on which the truthful muslims will profit from their truth....
it makes it a broad sense of truthfulness......

the truthful will profit from their truth.


those christians, jews ,buddihists ,others etc... who been misinformed,ignorant of the true message of Islam and been just will be judged with just and their lack of "proper" belief which due to misinformation or other causes I mentioned will not make Allah not to treat them with justice....

 

[جوري]

Oops, my mistake. And I've only just realized the actual height was 90 feet.

So?

The hadith was narated by Abu Huraira who I read is considered trustworthy.

Again, and? some are willing to believe they are a descendent of apes, but not the descendent of very tall persons.. which would make one a hypocrite at best in my opinion!

If you remember we have quite a history of arguing about quranic flaws, mostly ones concerning astronomy.

You have a long history of arguing much ado about nothing!

Neither of us reached any progress in convincing the other if I remmber correctly. It's like that with every religion, as well as irreligion I guess.

People will see what they want, but It doesn't touch written text.. if Galen wrote that the human zygote comes from a mixture of two sperms, it doesn't even make him remotely close to being correct even if the lot of you wish to push that down our throat.. in suret Al'qyema when the sex of the fetus is characterized and delimited to sperm alone in the centuries old book and unparalleled to any other at its time and in the region from whence it came, it is considered not only very correct, but very miraculous.. if you don't want to see it, well there is nothing anyone can do about it, religious or not!

Religious people will not admit their religion is flawed, nor will the irreligious admit any religion is flawless or perfect. Every religion has its share of apologetics claiming there's not a single mistake in their holy text, refuting every allegation and dispute. Some people are convinced and some aren't.

That is a sweeping generalization and not very telling, in which one is simply left in a pool of nonesense as if to justify to oneself ones errors...

One can't really tackle 'every' , it is very non-specific and non-descript, as to leave ample room for escape...

You don't want to accept, because that is something in your person, not because of a flaw in Islam!

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

So?

Just pointing out to my mistake, that's it.

Again, and? some are willing to believe they are a descendent of apes, but not the descendent of very tall persons.. which would make one a hypocrite at best in my opinion!

Not at all. Descencion from apes is theoretically possible, descencion from 90-footers is not, because 90-footers themselves are impossible.

You have a long history of arguing much ado about nothing!

Why thank you!

People will see what they want, but It doesn't touch written text.. if Galen wrote that the human zygote comes from a mixture of two sperms, it doesn't even make him remotely close to being correct even if the lot of you wish to push that down our throat.. in suret Al'qyema when the sex of the fetus is characterized and delimited to sperm alone in the centuries old book and unparalleled to any other at its time and in the region from whence it came, it is considered not only very correct, but very miraculous.. if you don't want to see it, well there is nothing anyone can do about it, religious or not!

I don't remember ever using Galen to counter the Quran.

37. Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
38. Then did he become a clinging clot;
Then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
39. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
40. Has not he, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?

Are you refering to this?
Why exactly do you think the verse implies male gametes are the ones that determine the gender of a child?
Is this a way to account for the lack of mention of female gametes?

That is a sweeping generalization and not very telling, in which one is simply left in a pool of nonesense as if to justify to oneself ones errors...
One can't really tackle 'every' , it is very non-specific and non-descript, as to leave ample room for escape...
You don't want to accept, because that is something in your person, not because of a flaw in Islam!

You're right, it is a generalisation, but some things are true in general. Very few religious people will admit to the mistakes suppossedly found in their holy book, let it be the Quran or the Bible or the Bahai texts and will always find a way to refute alleged flaws. Christians, whose religion I suspect you deem false, have refuted practically every alleged mistake and contradiction (except for the creationism, but I don't think you mind that..). Of course, not all people buy it, I guess you don't and neither do I. I for one won't buy other religion's aplogetics either.
It's possible one of the religions I mentioned is in fact flawless and I'm doing it harm by generalizing, but I seriously doubt it.
I don't know. Like every other person I am defending my beliefs.

 

[جوري]

Just pointing out to my mistake, that's it.

That is humbling!

Not at all. Descencion from apes is theoretically possible, descencion from 90-footers is not, because 90-footers themselves are impossible.

I don't see why not? the same genes that code for large ape Jaws, can be the same genes that code for tall stature.. it is really all very possible if you know how genetics works!

Why thank you!

:wink:

I don't remember ever using Galen to counter the Quran.

I never accused you specifically.. I did however say many of you, use him as the correct source on embryology pre-dating the Quran.. in fact his theories have nothing to do with what is mentioned in the Quran.. and are in fact incorrect!

37. Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)?
38. Then did he become a clinging clot;
Then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion.
39. And of him He made two sexes, male and female.
40. Has not he, (the same), the power to give life to the dead?

Are you refering to this?
Why exactly do you think the verse implies male gametes are the ones that determine the gender of a child?

ha? The sperm contains 23 chromosomes, of which one chromosome determines the sex of the embryo. The chromosome in the sperm is either (Y) or (X), while the chromosome in the ovum is always (X). When a sperm of the chromosome type (Y) mingles with an ovum of the chromosome (X), the formed zygote will be male (XY), whereas the embryo will be female (XX) if the sperm (X) mingles with an (X) ovum. So, the sex of the embryo is determined by the sperm (the male), rather than the ovum (the female).

أَيَحْسَبُ الْإِنسَانُ أَن يُتْرَكَ سُدًى ، أَلَمْ يَكُ نُطْفَةً مِّن مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى​

​

as well as

وَأَنَّهُ خَلَقَ الزَّوْجَيْنِ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَىِ . من نُّطْفَةٍ إِذَا تُمْنَى) ) النجم 45-46 )​

“That He created the pairs, male and female, from a fluid-drop sperm as it is emitted.” (53: 45-46),

is very descript for the sperm influencing the sex of the fetus.. a belief not commonly shared at that time, during preceeding time and actually not until very recently in medical history..

Is this a way to account for the lack of mention of female gametes?

oh how is it missed?

(إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَانَ مِنْ نُطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا ) (الإنسان:2)​

“Verily We created man of a fluid-drop (nutfa), mingling (amshaj) , in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts of) hearing and sight.” (76:2).
The mingled nutfa in this verse reveals the Quran miraculous nature. Nutfa, in Arabic, is a single small drop of water, but it was described here as (amshaj) , which means its structure consists of combined mixtures . This fits with the scientific finding, as the zygote is shaped as a drop, and is simultaneously a mixture of male fluid chromosomes and female ovum chromosomes.

Amshaj here denotes that the drop admixed (mingled) with a female ovum!

You're right, it is a generalisation, but some things are true in general. Very few religious people will admit to the mistakes suppossedly found in their holy book, let it be the Quran or the Bible or the Bahai texts and will always find a way to refute alleged flaws. Christians, whose religion I suspect you deem false, have refuted practically every alleged mistake and contradiction (except for the creationism, but I don't think you mind that..). Of course, not all people buy it, I guess you don't and neither do I. I for one won't buy other religion's aplogetics either.

Actually christians really haven't accounted for half the mistakes in their holy book, so they deem what they can't explain parables or scribal errors...
Bahais or ahmadis, have simply taken the Quran and snipped parts of it, added parts from other books to form a new sect... I can't deem it as a religion all together.. you must have a specific issue to want to discuss not just make random statements..

It's possible one of the religions I mentioned is in fact flawless and I'm doing it harm by generalizing, but I seriously doubt it.
I don't know. Like every other person I am defending my beliefs.

And you are so entitled

cheers..

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I don't see why not? the same genes that code for large ape Jaws, can be the same genes that code for tall stature.. it is really all very possible if you know how genetics works!

That's not genetics that makes it impossible. A human 90-footer, no matter what caused his height, would almost certainly cruch under his own weight, a human skeleton is not designed for such heights. A human body that size would have to be significantly morphologically different, probably to an extent that would disqualify him as being human..
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/134266178-adam-60-cubit-confusion.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/134266178-adam-60-cubit-confusion-4.html#post937683

ha? The sperm contains 23 chromosomes, of which one chromosome determines the sex of the embryo. The chromosome in the sperm is either (Y) or (X), while the chromosome in the ovum is always (X). When a sperm of the chromosome type (Y) mingles with an ovum of the chromosome (X), the formed zygote will be male (XY), whereas the embryo will be female (XX) if the sperm (X) mingles with an (X) ovum. So, the sex of the embryo is determined by the sperm (the male), rather than the ovum (the female).

lol, this for me?.

“That He created the pairs, male and female, from a fluid-drop sperm as it is emitted.” (53: 45-46),

is very descript for the sperm influencing the sex of the fetus.. a belief not commonly shared at that time, during preceeding time and actually not until very recently in medical history..

Well, that's one intepretation, pretty far fetched if you ask me. I think the verse simply says a human being develops from a fluid-drop of sperm.

oh how is it missed?
“Verily We created man of a fluid-drop (nutfa), mingling (amshaj) , in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts of) hearing and sight.” (76:2).
The mingled nutfa in this verse reveals the Quran miraculous nature. Nutfa, in Arabic, is a single small drop of water, but it was described here as (amshaj) , which means its structure consists of combined mixtures . This fits with the scientific finding, as the zygote is shaped as a drop, and is simultaneously a mixture of male fluid chromosomes and female ovum chromosomes.
Amshaj here denotes that the drop admixed (mingled) with a female ovum!

Again, a matter of intepretation, this one is also a bit far fetched. Does the verse specifically mention any sort of female fluids?

Actually christians really haven't accounted for half the mistakes in their holy book, so they deem what they can't explain parables or scribal errors...
Bahais or ahmadis, have simply taken the Quran and snipped parts of it, added parts from other books to form a new sect... I can't deem it as a religion all together.. you must have a specific issue to want to discuss not just make random statements..

Well, whenever I talk to fundies and bring up a contradiction or a mistake they've already got a refutation stored in their pockets. Some are good and some are far fetched ramblings about symbolism..
I mentioned the bahai because I once came across to a rather extensive piece defending scientifically incorrect statements made by their prophet. I didn't mean to start a discussion.

 

[جوري]

That's not genetics that makes it impossible. A human 90-footer, no matter what caused his height, would almost certainly cruch under his own weight, a human skeleton is not designed for such heights. A human body that size would have to be significantly morphologically different, probably to an extent that would disqualify him as being human..
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/134266178-adam-60-cubit-confusion.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/134266178-adam-60-cubit-confusion-4.html#post937683

That is hilarious man.. should they have 21st century bone structure and skeletal system to support 90 tons of weight? where did you come up with that? I don't even need to open those threads to deleve into this much lunacy!

lol, this for me?.

sure why not?

Well, that's one intepretation, pretty far fetched if you ask me. I think the verse simply says a human being develops from a fluid-drop of sperm.

Nah, that is English for you.. in Arabic it is quite clear and not far-fetched, unless you simply want to deny what is written!

Again, a matter of intepretation, this one is also a bit far fetched. Does the verse specifically mention any sort of female fluids?

of the same caliber as male fluids are yes-- and in many other verses speaks of the womb itself.. I don't see how the female part is denied here?

Well, whenever I talk to fundies and bring up a contradiction or a mistake they've already got a refutation stored in their pockets. Some are good and some are far fetched ramblings about symbolism..
I mentioned the bahai because I once came across to a rather extensive piece defending scientifically incorrect statements made by their prophet. I didn't mean to start a discussion.

My approach to everything is usually step by step guide... I never actually stated in my previous posts other religions are wrong.. If you browse through my old posts you'll find this simulation

I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong..rather which is most correct...

I'll use the analogy of you showing up say with chest pain in the ER
1- Does your ER doc take your troponins?
2-Does he administer an EKG?
3-Does he give you an Aspirin/ heparin and draw a blood test?
4-Does he give you TPA on an emergent basis?
5-Does he secure your airway breathing and circulation?
6-Does he rule out other possibilites than a heart attack like an aortic dissection or GERD?

DO you see how they are all potentially correct answers? on a state licensing exam only ONE IS MOST CORRECT. Only one will score you a point on the test... Thus I say.. I personally don't believe the other monotheistic religions are wrong, whether Manadeans, sabeans, Jewish, Christian or whatever... it is a matter of which is most correct.. of course that is a decision left to the individual. In Islam generally we don't need to prove that the other prophets are wrong, to make prophet Mohammed (p) the one true messenger.. we hold them all in the same regards... It is actually a bonus being a Muslim Al7mdlilah.. one doesn't have to spend his/her life debunking the achievements of other messengers to shine a light on another....Islam to me and most practicing Muslims is the most well preserved and encompassing...

peace!
__________________

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-changed-your-opinion-islam-2.html#post844253


your approach to anything in life should be systematic until you arrive to what is most satisfactory as there can only be one correct answer!


cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

That is hilarious man.. should they have 21st century bone structure and skeletal system to support 90 tons of weight? where did you come up with that? I don't even need to open those threads to deleve into this much lunacy!

Perhaps you should check this instead.

sure why not?

well, it felt kinda demeaning, but thanks anyway.

Nah, that is English for you.. in Arabic it is quite clear and not far-fetched, unless you simply want to deny what is written!

How is the arabic verse different?
Does the verse imply the presence of an ovum or female fluids and clearly state that females are not the ones to determine the gender.
Could you explain why the arabic verse is so clear in saying male gamets determine the gender?
"It's clear in arabic" isn't a particulary satisfactory reply.

of the same caliber as male fluids are yes-- and in many other verses speaks of the womb itself.. I don't see how the female part is denied here?

Does the verse specifically mention anyone's fluids. A couple posts back you said nutfa means a drop of water.
What are the fluids the verse, or any other verse abour procreation, speak of? Are tehy defined as ejaculation fluids or simply fluids...?

 

[جوري]

The mass of the Earth has remained pretty much unchanged a couple of billions of years, practically since it's formation. During the period in which the mass was changing due to different factors our planet was uninhabitable. The position of the Earth according to the sun has also remained mainly the same. And if the Earth were any closer to or further from the sun, it would be uninhabitable. At the current distance the sun's influence on our planet's gravity is practically zero, so moving it away wouldn't make a difference.
The only factor that could contribute to lower gravity is faster rotation of the Earth around it's axis, which I guess could only be achieved by changing the Earth's size and position according to the sun, possibly even its composition. As I said the Earth's mass and shape didn't change and changing the position would make it uninhabitable. And the difference would not be enough for a 90-footer to be able to survive.
Mars would be a great place for him, if it were any warmer. But the earth is not like Mars..

You really don't know that, any one theory from a reflecting mind is as good as the next... you have skyscrapers boeing 747 that don't collapse upon themselves or cave in under the pull of gravity.. it has more to do with the design of the element itself than anything.. unless you know exactly what the original design was like can you comment, else you must account for every variable and not simply state 'supposing' this without accounting for that..

Here's a literal translation of the verses
And that He created the pairs/couples , the male and the female.
From a drop/males or female's secretion , if/when (it be) ejaculated/discharged semen/sperm.

Only now I can see what your point is, and it's a good point really.. That is of course if the translation is correct, yours and the remaining 15 are different. Most mention sperm only, some mention fluid, this is teh only one to include female secretion. I believe the word nutfa is used? The wiki entry for nutfa you provided doesn't mention it.

I have provided you with two different verses.. one mentioning the sperms accountability for the sex of the fetus, the other using the term أَمْشَاجٍ (amshaj) to denote its combined form! You want a good translation aside from learning Arabic then I recommend Leopold Weiss he lived with the bedouins for 17 years and has a good grip on Arabic as well as English!

This is the only translation to mention both fluids and then say the males and females are created from sperm only, not even the one you provided says that.
So, does the verse in arabic say that?
Does the first verse translate to "males and females" or "sexes"? Or both? What exactly does it translate to? Try your best!

You keep dancing around the topic I notice you always like to beat every topic to death rather than read.. how about you pick up the Quran and read it? verses on creation are all throughout not just one or two!

I think I see your point. However, saying that males and females, or different sexes for that matter are created for sperm can be intepreted in different ways, one of them being females having no role in conception..

There is only one way to interpret the sex of the fetus a direct result of a male sperm, it isn't really subject to whimsey

Oh yeah, what I'm interested in is the time the males and the females are created. Does the verse translate to "when/as the drop(sperm) is emited"? Or does it merely say the sexes are creted from the drop?

verse 75:36-37 مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى literally translates to ejected semen.

Please do answer all the questions.

Nutfa can't have had that many meanings in Muhammad's time. Apart from sperm and semen all are modern medical concepts/terms.
And there's no mention of female fluids or ova.

I believe I have answered all your questions.. these terms are the ones used in the dictionary for semen/sperm/ejection.. I am not sure what to tell you.. you are entitled to believe what you want after all is said and done..

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

You really don't know that, any one theory from a reflecting mind is as good as the next... you have skyscrapers boeing 747 that don't collapse upon themselves or cave in under the pull of gravity.. it has more to do with the design of the element itself than anything.. unless you know exactly what the original design was like can you comment, else you must account for every variable and not simply state 'supposing' this without accounting for that..

Adam was suppossed to be a human, right?

I have provided you with two different verses.. one mentioning the sperms accountability for the sex of the fetus, the other using the term أَمْشَاجٍ (amshaj) to denote its combined form! You want a good translation aside from learning Arabic then I recommend Leopold Weiss he lived with the bedouins for 17 years and has a good grip on Arabic as well as English!
There is only one way to interpret the sex of the fetus a direct result of a male sperm, it isn't really subject to whimsey
verse 75:36-37 مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى literally translates to ejected semen.

I hope you understand why I am skeptical of all this. It's not beating the topic to death, it's trying to get a satisfactory reply. You keep telling me what the verse means yet you cannot provide me with an explanation, a brief linguistic analysys as to why that is. You know, word to word.
No English transaltion of the Quran, not even one by Mr Weiss, is as clear as you claim the arabic verse is. If teh verse were so clear that it's the male's gametes that determine the gender, I'd expect at least one of them, or at least those by arabic authors, to translate it in a way you're proposing.
Every English tranlation says that God made people in pairs, males and females, and it's the sperm or a mixture or sperm (or in one case a mixture of male and female excretion) that is responsible. Now, as I said, this can be intepreted in your way, but also in a totally different way. Why did all translators, Weiss included, made it so confusing when they could have simply translated it into something like "the sex is determined...".
Q: Is what you're saying your intepretation of the verse or simply a translation?

I you really have that sympathy for the thread, I can stop.

PS:

verse 75:36-37 مَّنِيٍّ يُمْنَى literally translates to ejected semen.

I was interested in 53:45,46, but never mind.

 

[جوري]

Adam was suppossed to be a human, right?

Sort of having a soul to animate him, how is it different?

I hope you understand why I am skeptical of all this. It's not beating the topic to death, it's trying to get a satisfactory reply. You keept tell me what the verse means yet you cannot provide me with a brief linguistic analysys as to why that is. You know, word to word.
No English transaltion of the Quran, not even one by Mr Weiss, is as clear as you claim the arabic verse is. If teh verse were so clear that it's the male's gametes that determine the gender, I'd expect at least one of them, or at least those by arabic authors, to translate it in a way you're proposing.

People translate to the best of their ability.. I have my doubt that you've purchased the message of the Quran or read any other translations in full sort of little snippets.. to translate 'literally' is impossible.. every word has more than one meaning and will always be subject to the translators understanding. If you look up any of the words in the dictionary you'll receive multiple meanings. Rather than deleve into what is intended, expressed or signified I offer you a dictionary and you draw your own conclusions.. but really you are making every thing much more difficult than it actually is and by choice!

Every English tranlation says that God made people in pairs, males and females, and it's the sperm or a mixture or sperm (or in one case a mixture of male and female excretion) that is responsible. Now, as I said, this can be intepreted in your way, but also in a totally different way. Why did all translators, Weiss included, made it so confusing when they could have simply translated it into something like "the sex is determined...".

See my above reply!

Q: Is what you're saying your intepretation of the verse or simply a translation?

a translation!

I you really have that sympathy for the thread, I can stop.

what does that mean? forgive me, when I reply, I am not looking at two responses rather the very last one!

PS:
I was interested in 53:45,46, but never mind.

وَأَنَّهُ خَلَقَ الزَّوْجَيْنِ الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى {45}​

And that He createth the two spouses, the male and the female,

مِن نُّطْفَةٍ إِذَا تُمْنَى​

]46}
from a sperm emitted..

is it still difficult? I don't think it can be any more clear than that..
Sex in a mammal is determined by a pair of chromosomes, one called X and the other Y ..The male's sperm carries either an X or Y.
There was a time when folks thought being born a female was a woman's fault.. verses as such put an end to that, although many ignorant don't bother reading or understanding!


I don't see what is there left to ponder about?!

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes, it's still difficult! It hasn't gotten any less difficult in the course of the last couple of posts.
Q: Does teh verse in arabic use the word determine? Does it use the word sex/gender?
"He createth the two spouses, the male and the female"
Is this a translation you're happy with? would you say it translates teh basic idea?
If so, why do you think it speaks of sex determination? What exactly is the flaw in interpreting it in a way that allah created the spouses from sperm, which basically everything is created from (man, males and females, human nature...) according to weiss' translation.

Q: 53:45-46, are there female fluids mentioned in the verse?
If not, could you provide a verse about the creation of man, where they are.

the other using the term أَمْشَاجٍ (amshaj) to denote its combined form!

the verse in question uses words nutfa (sperm related meanings) and amshaj, which you claimed means mingled or combined. How can the combination of these words denote the presence of female fluids, which you claimed the verse gives equal significance to as the sperm.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I've just spoken with 2 arabic speakers, one of them native, and they disagree with your intepretation.

 

[جوري]

Yes, it's still difficult! It hasn't gotten any less difficult in the course of the last couple of posts.

ok

Q: Does teh verse in arabic use the word determine? Does it use the word sex/gender?

yes, الذَّكَرَ وَالْأُنثَى denote male and female

"He createth the two spouses, the male and the female"
Is this a translation you're happy with? would you say it translates teh basic idea?

using the preceeding sentence from that which is emitted, he created zawjyen(both) (two) (the pair) (male and female)

If so, why do you think it speaks of sex determination? What exactly is the flaw in interpreting it in a way that allah created the spouses from sperm, which basically everything is created from (man, males and females, human nature...) according to weiss' translation.

what does from that which is emitted i.e sperm (mani youmna) or (noutfaten toumna) a male and female is created?.. how many other ways can you translate that?

Q: 53:45-46, are there female fluids mentioned in the verse?
If not, could you provide a verse about the creation of man, where they are.

no female fluids aren't mentioned in this verse since a woman plays no role in the gender of the fetus, the ova is always an X! which gets methylated and inactive but I don't want to get into genetics right now.

here is one verse

( إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الإِنسَانَ مِنْ نُطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا) (الإنسان:2)​

“Verily We created man from a drop of a mingled fluid-drop (nutfa amshaj), in order to try him: so We gave him (the gifts), of hearing and sight.” (76:2).
here is another with a hadith confirmation


It has been agreed upon by commentators of the Holy Quran that “amshaj” means mingling, as man’s water mingles with that of the woman, and this is also what the Prophet (peace be upon him) confirmed in one of his speeches. Imam Ahmed indicated in his book “Al Musnad” that a Jew passed by the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) while he was addressing his companions. Some people from Quarish said; “O Jew! This man proclaims that he is a prophet.” The Jew said: “ I will ask him of something no one knows except a prophet.” He asked the prophet (PBUH); “ O Mohammed! What is man created from? The Prophet (PBUH) said; “O Jew! Man is created from both: man’s fluid (nutfa) and woman’s fluid.” The Jew said; “This is said by those prophets before you.” .

the verse in question uses words nutfa (sperm related meanings) and amshaj, which you claimed means mingled or combined. How can the combination of these words denote the presence of female fluids, which you claimed the verse gives equal significance to as the sperm.

Doesn't mean female fluid, it means a mingled sperm, not very difficult to conceive what it is mingled with?.. because the sexual act that has brought about off spring hasn't changed in the past oh say 5 million years of so. Aside from that see above hadith!

I've just spoken with 2 arabic speakers, one of them native, and they disagree with your intepretation.

really? lol how hilarious.. whatever they want to interpret as is inconsequential to me.. purchase a dictionary and use it, then there won't be a need for all this bizarre suspicion!

I am not going to conform to what you want it to be, just because you keep pressing the matter or impressing me with the list of Arabic speakers who disagree with me.

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Know what, let's call it a day.
Let's agree to disagree.

The very last question I'd like to ask is this:
In which of the following verses are female fluids mentioned:
16:4, 18:37, 23:13, 32:8, 36:77, 56:58, 75:37, 80:19.

 

[جوري]

There is nothing to agree to disagree on.... everything is clear for all to see. You wanting it to be different to cater to your particular mental attitude, isn't going to change the facts of the matter. Quran is cited and hadith is cited above. It is a done deal!

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

There is nothing to agree to disagree on.... everything is clear for all to see. You wanting it to be different to cater to your particular mental attitude, isn't going to change the facts of the matter. Quran is cited and hadith is cited above. It is a done deal!

cheers

Ok!
Now if you could please answer my final question.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

He then said: I have come to ask you about the child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance prevails upon the female's substance, it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah. The Jew said: What you have said is true; verily you are an Apostle. He then returned and went away. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: He asked me about such and such things of which I have had no knowledge till Allah gave me that. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0614)"

Here's another thing to ponder on..

 

[جوري]

Thauban, the freed slave of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), said: "While I was standing beside the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one of the rabbis of the Jews came and said: Peace be upon you, O Muhammad. I pushed him back with a push that he was going to fall. Upon this he said: Why do you push me? I said: Why don't you say: O Messenger of Allah? The Jew said: We call him by the name by which he was named by his family. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: My name is Muhammad with which I was named by my family. The Jew said: I have come to ask you (something). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Should that thing be of any benefit to you, if I tell you that? He (the Jew) said: I will lend my ears to it. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) drew a line with the help of the stick that he had with him and then said: Ask (whatever you like). Thereupon the Jew said: Where would the human beings be on the Day when the earth would change into another earth and the heavens too (would change into other heavens)? The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: They would be in darkness beside the Bridge. He (the Jew) again said: Who amongst people would be the first to cross (this bridge).? He said: They would be the poor amongst the refugees. The Jew said: What would constitute their breakfast when they would enter Paradise? He (the Holy Prophet) replied: A caul of the fish-liver. He (the Jew) said. What would be their food alter this? He (the Holy Prophet) said: A bullock which was fed in the different quarters of Paradise would be slaughtered for them. He (the Jew) said: What would be their drink? He (the Holy Prophet) said: They would be given drink from the fountain which is named" Salsabil". He (the Jew) said: I have come to ask you about a thing which no one amongst the people on the earth knows except an apostle or one or two men besides him. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Would it benefit you if I tell you that? He (the Jew) said: I would lend ears to that. He then said: I have come to ask you about the child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: The reproductive substance of man is white and that of woman (i. e. ovum central portion) yellow, and when they have sexual intercourse and the male's substance (chromosomes and genes) prevails upon the female's substance (chromosomes and genes), it is the male child that is created by Allah's Decree, and when the substance of the female prevails upon the substance contributed by the male, a female child is formed by the Decree of Allah. The Jew said: What you have said is true; verily you are an Apostle. He then returned and went away. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: He asked me about such and such things of which I have had no knowledge till Allah gave me that. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0614)"

your point being?

 

[جوري]

Corpus Luteum A yellow mass of cells that forms from the follicle that releases the egg at ovulation. The corpus luteum produces the hormone progesterone that is important for preparing the endometrium for implantation of the fertilized egg.

http://www.mymonthlycycles.com/mglossary.jsp