It is all right to do a little evil in order to do a greater good.

[جوري]

There's still plenty of actual slavery in the world, mostly in Africa and the Middle east. And there's sex slaves all over, even in the developed countries.
Elaborate, please. (the different form slavery has taken on in the west)

agreed! And I like the terms you used this time better.

Not 10 years ago, some black man was tied to the car of some white texan man and dragged to his death...looking at what happened to Katrina Victims and how it was handled as opposed to say had it happened to a more affluent community, tells me that there is vested interest in keeping some folks in a certain status quo..
I am not making excuses for folks who deliberately wish to stay 'enslaved' and in ghettos
but when you hand a job to someone named John over someone named lekwisha even though they have the same education/qualifications (program on 60mins) it pretty much tells slavery is indeed alive and well, albeit a bit more politically correct or put under a different canopy!


peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

agreed! And I like the terms you used this time better.

Not 10 years ago, some black man was tied to the car of some white texan man and dragged to his death...looking at what happened to Katrina Victims and how it was handled as opposed to say had it happened to a more affluent community, tells me that there is vested interest in keeping some folks in a certain status quo..
I am not making excuses for folks who deliberately wish to stay 'enslaved' and in ghettos
but when you hand a job to someone named John over someone named lekwisha even though they have the same education/qualifications (program on 60mins) it pretty much tells slavery is indeed alive and well, albeit a bit more politically correct or put under a different canopy!


peace

That's discrimination based on race, which is outlawed as well. the thing with laws is that you can change them but you can't change the mentality of the people.

 

[جوري]

As I said, before. If Islams' goal was to root out slavery completely, there'd be no rules about enslaving POWs and infidels, liberating slaves would have to be obligatory rather than just encourged etc.

لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ وَآتَى الْمَالَ عَلَى حُبِّهِ ذَوِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَى الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عَاهَدُواْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ فِي الْبَأْسَاء والضَّرَّاء وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ {177}​

[Pickthal 2:177] It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.

That verse above is the stance of Islam!-- to which there is no argument!

keeping prisoners of war is one thing, treating them well is a different story..Every country has a right to keep POW for deals.. war is trickery and a plan!
There is no room for contrast here though, least if terms of being extinguished, as abu gharib and Guantanamo are indelible in all our minds.. to be frank you are not making a good case for the west =)


cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

لَّيْسَ الْبِرَّ أَن تُوَلُّواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ قِبَلَ الْمَشْرِقِ وَالْمَغْرِبِ وَلَـكِنَّ الْبِرَّ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ وَالْكِتَابِ وَالنَّبِيِّينَ وَآتَى الْمَالَ عَلَى حُبِّهِ ذَوِي الْقُرْبَى وَالْيَتَامَى وَالْمَسَاكِينَ وَابْنَ السَّبِيلِ وَالسَّآئِلِينَ وَفِي الرِّقَابِ وَأَقَامَ الصَّلاةَ وَآتَى الزَّكَاةَ وَالْمُوفُونَ بِعَهْدِهِمْ إِذَا عَاهَدُواْ وَالصَّابِرِينَ فِي الْبَأْسَاء والضَّرَّاء وَحِينَ الْبَأْسِ أُولَـئِكَ الَّذِينَ صَدَقُوا وَأُولَـئِكَ هُمُ الْمُتَّقُونَ {177}​

[Pickthal 2:177] It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.

That verse above is the stance of Islam!-- to which there is no argument!

keeping prisoners of war is one thing, treating them well is a different story..Every country has a right to keep POW for deals.. war is trickery and a plan!
There is no room for contrast here though, least if terms of being extinguished, as abu gharib and Guantanamo are indelible in all our minds.. to be frank you are not making a good case for the west =)


cheers

I'm not trying to make a case for the west, let alone the US, which I personally have a lot of issues with. Still, not even the US enslaves its prisoners of war.
On a side note, today's western (continental) Europe is a better example of what the west should look like.


What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?

 

[crayon]

Islam did not abolish slavery, certain islamic states and empires did, some as recently as 20 years ago. and it's still practiced in some islamic parts of the world, not in the middle east though...

Well, alchohol and pork consumption and several others non-islamic practices were also a global phenomenon yet muslims managed to root them out in their lands. I don't see how global slave trade prevented the muslim world from abolishing slavery within their own borders.
And I wonder how the author came up with such an exact number as to when slavery would have been abolished in the muslim world.
As I said, before. If Islams' goal was to root out slavery completely, there'd be no rules about enslaving POWs and infidels, liberating slaves would have to be obligatory rather than just encourged etc.

I should have phrased that better; the teachings of islam led to the eventual abolition of slavery (in the mideast/africa/muslim countries)
I know of several unislamic practices that are practiced in the islamic world, such as the drinking of alchohol, fornication, etc. That doesn't make them okay.

There's a difference between a dietary change, or any other slight change, and changing something that is in the framework of society. As to the date the author provided, I agree, there's no basis for it.

Freeing slaves is obligatory in many cases, actually. Off the top of my head, when someone breaks an oath they took, when one does not fast certain days in ramadan, not performing a ritual of hajj properly.

Slavery is widespread in Mauritania, Niger, Sudan and several other African countries.

Your point being?

A side note- how on earth did this thread become about slaves anyway???

 

[crayon]

What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?

The prophet :arabic5: said: "There are three categories of people against whom I shall myself be a plaintiff on the Day of Judgement. Of these three, one is he who enslaves a free man, then sells him and eats this money" (al-Bukhari and Ibn Majjah).

It doesn't matter what kind of free man, whether he be muslim or not, it is haram to enslave him.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I should have phrased that better; the teachings of islam led to the eventual abolition of slavery (in the mideast/africa/muslim countries)

I know what you meant and I very much doubt it. Check some of my earlier posts and replies to Skye.

A side note- how on earth did this thread become about slaves anyway???

I posed a question why Islam allowes slavery, the answer I had received several times before is that the society would have collapesd had it been abolished over the night. So slavery is a small evil that brings greater good, that is an economically stable society/state.

 

[جوري]

What about enslaving infidels, non-believers? Is it allowed in Islam?

POW are one thing and you are to treat them well....randomly enslaving people is just nonsensical!
either way I don't know enough about jurisprudence to give you the final word.. I'd recommend consulting with a scholar!

peace

 

[crayon]

I know what you meant and I very much doubt it. Check some of my earlier posts and replies to Skye.

Let's just agree to disagree, okay? Lol

I posed a question why Islam allows slavery, the answer I had received several times before is that the society would have collapsed had it been abolished over the night. So slavery is a small evil that brings greater good, that is an economically stable society/state.

Yeah, I guess you could say that..

Are we done with the slavery talk now? I have an episode of "Dexter" calling my name....:statisfie

 

[Whatsthepoint]

POW are one thing and you are to treat them well....randomly enslaving people is just nonsensical!
either way I don't know enough about jurisprudence to give you the final word.. I'd recommend consulting with a scholar!

peace

Well, this is what led me to believe infidels can be enslaved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery#Principles

Principles

In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — "The basic principle is liberty") for a person if his or her origins were unknown[3], though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[32] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[3] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]

Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Let's just agree to disagree, okay? Lol

It's not ok, but ok, let's!

 

[crayon]

Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?

They didn't quote that from an islamic source, it's from "Shaun E. Marmon, ed. Slavery in the Islamic Middle East, Markus Wiener Publishers, Princeton (1999), page vii." It's not a hadith or verse from the quran.

Just read the line right after the bolded one:
"Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery."

(the opposite of confirm is negate, if im not mistaken)

Here's the link to submit a question to islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...Online-English-Ask_Scholar/Page/FatwaCounselE

 

[Whatsthepoint]

They didn't quote that from an islamic source, it's from "Shaun E. Marmon, ed. Slavery in the Islamic Middle East, Markus Wiener Publishers, Princeton (1999), page vii." It's not a hadith or verse from the quran.

Just read the line right after the bolded one:
"Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery."

(the opposite of confirm is negate, if im not mistaken)

Here's the link to submit a question to islamonline: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...Online-English-Ask_Scholar/Page/FatwaCounselE

Perhaps the source provides hadiths and verses. That's whay I'm asking for confirmation/negation.
The lines seem to contradict themselves..

"Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]"
This line is interesing. Why does it say "free muslim", if free men regardless of their relgiion could not be enslaved?

I am aware wikipedia is not the most reliable source..

 

[crayon]

"Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[33]"
This line is interesing. Why does it say "free muslim", if free men regardless of their relgiion could not be enslaved?

Ahh okay, I see what you're saying... I don't have an answer, tbh, maybe you could add this question to the one you're going to ask the scholar (if you are, that is)

 

[Uthman]

Greetings,

where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?

Maybe here.

Regards

 

[جوري]

Well, this is what led me to believe infidels can be enslaved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery#Principles

Can you confirm/unconfirm it? (what is the opposite of confirm anyway?)
where exactly can I find a scholar to consult with?

As for asking a scholar, I'd go to either of these websites..http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...Online-English-Ask_Scholar/Page/FatwaCounselE

or
http://www.islamicedfoundation.com/askscholar/askscholar.htm
and would generally away from wiki... but I believe it gave you the answer anyway no?
Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery

peace

 

[shakylla]

You were watching Kingdom of Heaven, weren't you? I remember Eva Green saying that exact line to Orlando Bloom when his character refused to assume the role of King of Jerusalem.

To be honest, I don't think there is such a thing as "little" evil. An action, to me, is either evil or good. If I were ever stuck in a position where I have to perform evil in order to achieve something that will benefit someone else, then I shouldn't do it at all. Perhaps there are other better ways of achieving the same outcome.