Free speech cannot be an excuse for hate

[Ninth_Scribe]

In a way, it's very amusing to see people get so hot and bothered over so simply an issue.

In the UK, you are free to say what you want, as long as you're not inciting hatred and/or violence, as that would be a crime. Most people would agree with this.

Yes, but beauty isn't the only thing determined by the eye of the beholder. I would not go into a black neighborhood and call a local n----r. I would not go into a working class neighborhood and insult a family's mother. I would not go to a Jewish neighborhood wearing a swastika. Nor would I encourage that type of freedom in public. So, I'm not going to encourage Denmark, by believing they meant no harm by what they did. I think they had every intention of starting something nasty... and that's OK too ~ so long as they don't whine 'pity me' about it afterward.

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Tornado]

^^But u get offended emotionally. Gotcha.


On a side note...

If you support hatred, ridiculing, disprespect or racism of a religion/group of people, you are a serious nutcase! Don't hope for peace if you support something that prevents peace in the first place! By golly, it's not that hard. Don't justify hatred. PERIOD.

If I get offended emotionally, I should just ignore it and decide not to listen to it. Words shouldn't break you.

I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it. If you don't agree with something, then you can respond since you would also have free speech.

 

[KAding]

So...are we in agreement than that the some of the earlier Qu'ran quotes I posted should be outlawed? Or is that different? If so, why? They cause offense, no?

 

[KAding]

i speak the truth! go to youtube you will find a ton of videos by americans playing that song with pictures of soldiers etc etc, always with the drama, like a movie.

and what hate crime have i commited????? i made a rude comment against americans? lol guess what? i too am an American! straight from los angelas california (which should be for the mexicans though). what can i say? God decided to make me a very mixed human, hence lol no American can accuse me of anything as i myself am American.

bet you never expected that, that good ole prince is American ey, from the city of angels.

Yes yes, but according to author of the original article your gross generalizations would most likely be considered hate speech. After all, they were pretty much identical in nature to those of Mark Steyn, who he wants to see convicted.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Oh c'mon, I know you aren't that naive. Why Mohammed? Because the Prophet Mohammed is the key figure in Islam. Imagine if Christians were going around blowing stuff up, not to mention themselves, and stated they were doing it for Christ(Christianity). A newspaper printed a cartoon of Christ with bombs hanging from the Cross...are you telling me you wouldn't get the criticism? Of course you would. Is it offensive? Hell yes.

This isn't directed at you Keltoi, but the above sparks something in my mind.

The religious have been attacking and slandering the non-religious for centuries. The point that the very religions themselves often incorporate very anti-"infidel" beliefs, which are accepted as mainstream and pushed as just and right.

It is the belief of most christians for example that I as a non-believer deserve eternal torture unless I accept Christ as my personal saviour from it. That is extremely insulting (on many levels) but so mainstream that I don't think most believers can see the numerous reasons why.

Given the above I have little compassion for religious people who feel their religion is being ridiculed. Turnabout is fair play as they say.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Are you actually suggesting people say things that other people don't like? Wow, what a concept.

You can get beat up for saying bad things about a football team in the wrong bar. So what? That is life. I don't want my freedom to call the New England Patriots a bunch of overpaid jerks with a cheating head coach to be taken away because a fan will be offended. Would you?

Indeed. And who is more in the wrong, the man who sticks his tongue out, or the man who chops it off?

I wouldn't have blamed a Jew for burning my house down, if they had seen the swastika. I don't blame anyone for an attack that is provoked.

So.. you pick the man who chops it off? I find that outlook alarming. It has no place in a free society.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

If I get offended emotionally, I should just ignore it and decide not to listen to it. Words shouldn't break you.

I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it. If you don't agree with something, then you can respond since you would also have free speech.

I dont care what definition of free speech you bring to the table...don't expect peace from anyone or anywhere if you support the same reason that stops it! Plain and simple. And if your going to say or do something inciteful, expect a verbal thrashing.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

So...are we in agreement than that the some of the earlier Qu'ran quotes I posted should be outlawed? Or is that different? If so, why? They cause offense, no?

We dont cut and paste verses like other religions do. What verses are u referring to?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Pick a major city? It all began with the free speech. Now we have stuff like car-porn.

You mean the "jesus fish" I see on cars? That symbol, the vesica pisces, was originally a pagan fertility symbol meant to represent a woman's genitals, for those who didn't know. Every time I see a "jesus fish" I smile at the irony.

These metal testicles that hang from one's back bumper (a weird form of self-expression). Sure, YOU might think it's funny, but what do you intend to say to your 8 year old daughter?

That is funny. You seriously have a problem with it? Get over yourself. As for my 8 year old daughter, I doubt she'd care or ask what it was anymore than she'd as what the mudflaps were.

And then there is all the streaking, running buck naked through a public place. Again, self expression, but you wouldn't want your 8 year old daughter to do that.

Actually... I would. In a society that could handle it. Its only outlandish and a spectacle becasue of the ridiculus nudity taboo we've developed here in western society. I hope it will fade and eventually people will be more comfortable with the human body.

The alternative? Death... or something very close to it. A billion human souls, without feelings, that don't give a **** about anything. Problem solved... anyone could say whatever they wanted and no one would even care.

Why do you equate people expressing themselves to Death or people without feelings who don't give a **** about anything? I can as easily suggest that without such free expression what you've got is a society of mindless obedient drones. No life there.

 

[KAding]

We dont cut and paste verses like other religions do. What verses are u referring to?

Stuff like "Lo! those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings. (98:6)" and "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk (51:5)". Do you agree these are insulting? And like Pygoscelis alread pointed out, the idea that us unbelievers deserve eternal hellfire is in itself highly insulting and disrespectful, yet it is so ingrained in the three monotheist religious doctrines.

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Hmm no it's not. Try facing reality. It's not a book of fairytales. Also, I think u should know by now not to take verses out of context. You have to look at what's before and after it. And even those have conditions.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Hmm no it's not. Try facing reality. It's not a book of fairytales. Also, I think u should know by now not to take verses out of context. You have to look at what's before and after it.

The same should be done with the cartoons!

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

What should be done? If you mean facing reality, well I've been doin that for a while now. They only look foolish with what they do, so let them keep doing it. I wont give air to their ignorance.

 

[Muezzin]

*sigh*

I wish that sounded less condescending, but I'm going to follow it up with one of my catchphrases such as 'get back to the topic, people,' or 'We're going off-topic' or 'Spot of Darjeeling, mate?'

So the condescension kind of multpilies so much that it explodes the consciousness of the universe and cancels itself out into some semblance of comedy.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Why do you equate people expressing themselves to Death or people without feelings who don't give a **** about anything? I can as easily suggest that without such free expression what you've got is a society of mindless obedient drones. No life there.

Get over myself? What exactly do I have to do with this? I'm not the one who started these insults and I'm not the one who is doing all the whining about it. You should get over yourself. You're the one who's whining. I don't mind passion. Heck, I don't even mind a good punch out, for that matter. I spent 20 years of my life as a rebel rouser and I've never once gone home to cry to mummy.

You should understand the Nature of the human Beast. Fact: If you mess around with people, that's fine. Just don't cry about it later on, when you're handed your @ss over it. Ninety-nine point nine percent of the time, this name calling crap has led to fights on your school play-ground. One kid wants to jack another kid up and he gets his teeth knocked out. Even the school principle knows this and now they punish BOTH the kids; the one who STARTED it is just as guilty as the one who FINISHED it.

The issue on this thread is no different. If they want to provoke the Muslims, well, they did that... and they got a double helping back. It hardly comes as a surprize. It doesn't "shock" me and it shouldn't "shock" them.

What I meant by Death is this. If anyone could say anything they wanted to, without anyone else caring... well, what's the point of even talking then? You say you like passion, but you seem to think it can be contained to a certain fixed and safe level. Maybe it's a guy thing, but passion is never contained. Hence the line: Don't write a check that your mouth can't cash.

This is exactly what happened. They knew it could get out of hand, but they rolled the dice and did it any way. Now they have the nerve to cry about it?

Gimme a break!

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Uthman]

Greetings,

I dislike hatred, ridiculing.. but if somebody wants to say something, then let them do it.

But why? I apologise if I am making you repeat yourself, but I simply don't understand it. Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated? What possible benefit could come of them, that could not be achieved in more acceptable ways?

Regards

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

But why? Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated?

I'm still trying to figure that one out. The last time I heard one of my children swear, I fed him a spoonful of hot-sauce. Now, aparently, this one thinks we should all be able to say what ever the heck we want - but I know quite a few school teachers who disagree. No one likes trash-talk. It should have no place in schools, on TV or in any public venue. Why? Because trashy thoughts because trashy words, that become trashy deeds.

Maybe he never went to kindergarten?

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Keltoi]

Why should insults be tolerated?...Why should compliments be tolerated? Why should bad TV programming be tolerated? Why should people who can't write be given publishing contracts? Why can somebody carry around a sign at a protest rally calling the president a bad name and questioning his moral ethics? I could go on and on. It is called FREE SPEECH. It is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the most important freedom granted us by whatever constitution we happen to live by.

Speech is speech...if you can't handle being insulted and feel the need to resort to violence to make your point...well that says more about you than it does free speech.

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Why should insults be tolerated?...Why should compliments be tolerated? Why should bad TV programming be tolerated? Why should people who can't write be given publishing contracts? Why can somebody carry around a sign at a protest rally calling the president a bad name and questioning his moral ethics? I could go on and on. It is called FREE SPEECH. It is the foundation of a healthy democracy and the most important freedom granted us by whatever constitution we happen to live by.

Speech is speech...if you can't handle being insulted and feel the need to resort to violence to make your point...well that says more about you than it does free speech.

Why can't kids use the f-word at their teacher or others? Why can't Hip Hop be produced unedited? Why is it illegal to be naked in public? Why does the U.S. government have the right to classify information and keep it secret from the people?

Free speech doesn't give a person the right to be lewd. It doesn't give them the right to be disorderly. It doesn't give them the right to be obscene and it doesn't give them the right to incite violence. You can say things like: I hate the Queen. You do have the right and you don't even have to explain why. But if you state that the Queen is a sl-t ~ well that's just plain slander, and slander is illegal, sir. Are you trying to say slander should become... legal?

I would have prefered this issue as a lawsuit, to be settled in a court ~ but that's just more to my personal style.

Slander:

1. (Law) Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/slander

Libel:

1. (Law) The publication of something false which damages a person's reputation.
2. any damaging or unflattering representation or statement.

Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/libel

Choose your weapon folks! Neither of these laws specify that the plaintiff (person who suffered), has to be living. They only require that the form of slander or libel was made public (eg: not in secret).

The Ninth Scribe

 

[Tornado]

Greetings,



But why? I apologise if I am making you repeat yourself, but I simply don't understand it. Why should hatred, ridicule and insults be tolerated? What possible benefit could come of them, that could not be achieved in more acceptable ways?

Regards

As I said no one gets hurt. I'm sure hatred, ridicule, and insults are tolerated for most things, just not religion, and specifically Islam. People, I think, don't actually want to make fun of religion, but want that ability to. It's so that they can exercise their free speech. If there exist a group you feel is destructive to society, you should be able to speak out. If you are unable to speak out, that group may get out of hand.
Let's take a very different example. In my opinion, you should be able to say that Holocaust didn't happen or that the claimed 6 million Jews who died was an exaggeration. This forces people to go back to evidence and see how accurate that event was. If the evidence is there, the person making the claim just looks foolish but like I said, is still able to exercise their freedom of speech.