Female honey bee? Arabic word?

[kay106]

To the best of my knowledge, nahl is used for the singular male.



My opinion is that nahl cannot be used for singular female, or if so, definitely not in this context.

Here, Nahl is being used for plural and as it referrs to a non-intelligent group (animals), the singular feminine form is used in conjugation in the words kulee, faslukee and botooniha.



See, no significant change occurs.

So because of the conjugation of the feminine words, thats what makes it femanine?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

So because of the conjugation of the feminine words, thats what makes it femanine?

She made it quite clear why feminine singular is used.

 

[kay106]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article,

"The honeybee has a body that varies in length between 1cm and 3cm, and that is divided into three parts: head, thorax and abdomen. The verse quoted above stresses that in the individual female bee there are “abdomens,” which in Arabic is “butuniha,” the “ha” referring to a singular female bee. If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.” This makes clear the segmented abdomen of the bee. Inside the abdomen there are two stomachs or crops. When collecting the nectar from flowers, nectar is stored in this honey stomach for transport back to the hive. At the rear of the honey stomach is a valve that prevents stored nectar from passing on into the rear portion of the digestive system, except for the small amount needed by the bee to sustain life. The hind portion of the bee’s body is the abdomen that is made up of segments in the form of rings. The abdomen of the bee functions as a chemistry laboratory to produce honey. "

My question is that is butoon, dual in arabic and not plural. because when it is plural in arabic, it means more than three and in english it means more than once, but dual means two.

so is butoon dual?

 

[Whatsthepoint]

If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.”

I thought butooniha was a noun..

 

[Faye]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article,

"The honeybee has a body that varies in length between 1cm and 3cm, and that is divided into three parts: head, thorax and abdomen. The verse quoted above stresses that in the individual female bee there are “abdomens,” which in Arabic is “butuniha,” the “ha” referring to a singular female bee. If the plural of the word “abdomen” was meant to refer to the female bees, then the plural female pronoun “hunna” would be attached to the verb “butuniha.”

The plural female pronoun (hunna) is not used because it refers to a non-intelligent plural noun, for which, in most cases (there are exceptions), the singular female pronouns (ha, and hiya) as well as the singular feminine verb forms are used.

I have posted this grammar rule before, and you can look at my previous posts in this thread, or, if you don't trust me, ask another knowledgeable source you trust. I am getting tired of this same old argument.

This makes clear the segmented abdomen of the bee. Inside the abdomen there are two stomachs or crops. When collecting the nectar from flowers, nectar is stored in this honey stomach for transport back to the hive. At the rear of the honey stomach is a valve that prevents stored nectar from passing on into the rear portion of the digestive system, except for the small amount needed by the bee to sustain life. The hind portion of the bee’s body is the abdomen that is made up of segments in the form of rings. The abdomen of the bee functions as a chemistry laboratory to produce honey. "

Cool ... fun ... very interesting.

My question is that is butoon, dual in arabic and not plural. because when it is plural in arabic, it means more than three and in english it means more than once, but dual means two.

so is butoon dual?

No butoon is not dual. Dual form would be 'batnan'. So I don't have to eat my words yet.

 

[Faye]

I thought butooniha was a noun..

Butoon is a noun. Ha is an attached pronoun, indicating possession. Sort of like, mine, theirs and hers in English. Butoon means bellies, ha means either hers, or theirs (for non-intelligent nouns).

An example of the use is:

kitabo zaynab wa Qalamo-ha
means: Zaynab's book, and her pen
or Zainab's book and pen

Abwaabo al-boyooti, wa nawafizo-ha
means: the doors of the houses, and their (the house's) windows
or the doors and windows of the houses.

The point of the discussion is that kay106 claims that 'ha' here is in the meaning of hers, and I claim that in this context it means theirs.

 

[Faye]

http://www.quranmiracles.com/articles.asp?id=17 - Quite an interesting article

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion ) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

 

[kay106]

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion ) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

Are they bending the text by saying that the worker bee is female, when it is actually male, too? please expose them.

 

[Faye]

Are they bending the text by saying that the worker bee is female, when it is actually male, too? please expose them.

It is not actually male, nor is it actually female. It is like the word 'horse' in English, an 'it'. You don't say she is a horse, or he is a horse, unless it is a particular horse with known gender. You say it is a horse. That's how the text tranlates.

Tell me how to expose them and I will.

 

[kay106]

It is not actually male, nor is it actually female. It is like the word 'horse' in English, an 'it'. You don't say she is a horse, or he is a horse, unless it is a particular horse with known gender. You say it is a horse. That's how the text tranlates.

Tell me how to expose them and I will.

So worker bee is not mentioned as a male or female, instead the word nahl at the beginning is actually masculine by form, but it is one of those terms which is neither masculine nor femanine. there are no words to indicate that the worker bee is female. I hope u understand what i mean by worker bee.

thanks for all you help, i knew it was a fake miracle. people are claiming that the bees who are building the hives, eating from flowers, in other words the worker bees in the Quran are female, but in fact it actually has no gender specified. please correct me where i go wrong. Can you please clarify again that this is fake, please.

thanks again.

 

[kay106]

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

I hope somebody understood this. Grammar is tricky, confusing and difficult to explain.

so by adding a yaa on kul (eat), or fasluk (follow) makes it plural, if its non intelligent like a bee?? where did you get this grammer from? where is your source, do you have any example from the Quran. i really dont think what you are saying is true.

yaa at the end where God is commanding, example attakhizea, or kullee, or faslukee, means he is talking to a female, example - When God talks to mary, he uses kullee

فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" [19:26]

if you look at another context where it is male, it will be kul.

kulee is clearly a command to a female. as well as faslukee...

You are saying that the yaa makes it plural, how? Can you please give me your source for this. any any other example from the Quran.

 

[kay106]

I did check out the site you posted. It appears to be trying to create miracles where none exist, by, what appears to me to be shoddy reasoning and deliberate mistranslations and overlooking of pertinent information (just my opinion ) . Is Quran itself not miracle enough for them? Must there be intricate secret numerical codes behind everything?

The closest thing I saw to this was in a jewwish book, 'The Chosen', by Chaim Potok. They did this sort of reasoning as a game to sharpen their wits, but even they knew better than to trust the results of deliberate bending of sacred texts to give the meaning they desired.

I have actually verified some of them, and they are true. example the moon is mentioned 27 times in the Quran and this is how long the moon takes to go around the earth, 27 days. Many others are actually true. I have a 3 volume quran, which is the word to word translation as well as the other meanings of a word, i have verified many of them using that as well as other sources.

 

[Faye]

I have actually verified some of them, and they are true. example the moon is mentioned 27 times in the Quran and this is how long the moon takes to go around the earth, 27 days. Many others are actually true. I have a 3 volume quran, which is the word to word translation as well as the other meanings of a word, i have verified it using that as well as other sources.

Didn't say they weren't true, just that the fact that it is true has no significance. Even if it is true, what does it prove? That's like saying that the number of letter Es on a particular age are exactly equal to the page number and furthermore, the title of that chapter also begins with the letter E. Doesn't even prove that the author intended it to be that way, or even that he was aware of it, though Allah is perfect in his knowledge.

Some of the ones I looked at, (I didn't look at all of them) were shoddy because they ignored or did not count different forms of the same word. I would have to go back and check for the exact reference, but I remember in one place they counted all occurrences of the word Wahid, meaning the One unless it had a tanween of Fatha at the end, where in writing you add an unpronounced alif at the end to indicate the Fatha tanween, because they didn't use Harakaat in those times (like the unpronounced E at the end of like). The point is that they did not count those occurrences because it threw their count off. So, shoddy reasoning, overlooking of pertinent information and in the final case, mistranslation of the bee thing.

 

[Faye]

So worker bee is not mentioned as a male or female, instead the word nahl at the beginning is actually masculine by form, but it is one of those terms which is neither masculine nor femanine. there are no words to indicate that the worker bee is female. I hope u understand what i mean by worker bee.

thanks for all you help, i knew it was a fake miracle. people are claiming that the bees who are building the hives, eating from flowers, in other words the worker bees in the Quran are female, but in fact it actually has no gender specified. please correct me where i go wrong. Can you please clarify again that this is fake, please.

thanks again.

Absolutely correct.

 

[جوري]

The word 'itakhizhi' from the same verse is also the feminine for take- does denote to me that the worker bee is female.. does anyone have an alternate explanation? if so how?

 

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

"And Your lord inspired the bee, to build your dwellings in hills, on trees, and in (human’s) habitations. Then, to eat of all the produce and follow the ways of your Lord made easy. There comes forth from their bodies a drink of varying colour, wherein is healing for men: Verily, in this is a sign for those who give thought." (The Quran, 16:68-69)

The translation of the Arabic word "attakhithi", which is the feminine form (Arabic grammar unlike English, differentiates between the sexes). The feminine form is used when all of those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group consists of at least 1 male.

 

[Faye]

so by adding a yaa on kul (eat), or fasluk (follow) makes it plural, if its non intelligent like a bee?? where did you get this grammer from? where is your source, do you have any example from the Quran. i really dont think what you are saying is true.

yaa at the end where God is commanding, example attakhizea, or kullee, or faslukee, means he is talking to a female, example - When God talks to mary, he uses kullee

فَكُلِي وَاشْرَبِي وَقَرِّي عَيْنًا فَإِمَّا تَرَيِنَّ مِنَ الْبَشَرِ أَحَدًا فَقُولِي إِنِّي نَذَرْتُ لِلرَّحْمَنِ صَوْمًا فَلَنْ أُكَلِّمَ الْيَوْمَ إِنسِيًّا

"So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this day.'" [19:26]

if you look at another context where it is male, it will be kul.

kulee is clearly a command to a female. as well as faslukee...

You are saying that the yaa makes it plural, how? Can you please give me your source for this. any any other example from the Quran.

As is very obvious, Mary is an intelligent human being. And anyway, this form also applies to all intelligent or non intelligent singular females.

I am a student at a madrassa in Pakistan. We study grammar there. Unfortunately all my grammar books are either in Urdu or Arabic. Do you understand Urdu or Arabic? My books are 'Lisaan ul-Quran', pulblication of Madrassa Aisha Siddiqa lil Banaat, and 'an-Nahw al-WaZih lil Madaaris il-Ibtida2iyyah wa ath-Thanawiyyah'. Also I know of lots of highly reputed grammar books (in Arabic) which mention the rule. It is a very basic rule, used everywhere. I don't know why your books don't mention it. If you want, I can scan the relevant pages and you can get them translated from a source you trust.

I'll have to think about the Quran example for a bit. I'll get back to you about it when I'm not so tired.

 

[Faye]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

"And Your lord inspired the bee, to build your dwellings in hills, on trees, and in (human’s) habitations. Then, to eat of all the produce and follow the ways of your Lord made easy. There comes forth from their bodies a drink of varying colour, wherein is healing for men: Verily, in this is a sign for those who give thought." (The Quran, 16:68-69)

The translation of the Arabic word "attakhithi", which is the feminine form (Arabic grammar unlike English, differentiates between the sexes). The feminine form is used when all of those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group consists of at least 1 male.

The word which is translated as 'their' in your translation (ha), is also the term for a singular female. So can other singular feminine forms (both in verbs and pronouns) be used for a non intelligent ie animal form.

For example, do you say: Hathihee kotobun, or do you say, Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

 

[جوري]

Arabic is my mother tongue and I agree with kay!
kulee
itakhithee
asluki
are all feminine period!

 

[FatimaAsSideqah]

The word which is translated as 'their' in your translation (ha), is also the term for a singular female. So can other singular feminine forms (both in verbs and pronouns) be used for a non intelligent ie animal form.

For example, do you say: Hathihee kotobun, or do you say, Ha2olaa2i kotobun?

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

I would say Hathihee kotobun.