Asking things tongue in cheek about Allah [swt] is pointless.

[MuslimCONVERT]

There is a lot of non-issue talk on these boards. For example: Why did Allah [swt] create the people who He knew would disbelieve in Him? Isn't this a waste of time? The whole 'why is Allah like this' and 'why is Allah like that' and so on, are really pointless questions.

The reason is because you are using a human mind, the mind that HE created, to try to understand Him. This in and of itself is a logical problem.

Trying to understand EVERYTHING about the One who created REALITY is like saying 'I am a machine that can record ALL sounds!' -This statement can't possibly be true, because that means you [the machine] would be able to record the sound that could shatter it [you] to pieces. The concept of trying to understand every single fine point about something as complex as God [Allah] is really just non-issue dribble.

Now I know in saying that, people will say, "See, I knew you Muslims weren't logical! You just believe in things by blind faith! Using circular logic! blah blah blah!" -But this isn't the case. It is very logical to accept that we aren't going to understand EVERYTHING about a perfect entity who is different from anything we know, and created every concept and every 'thing.' -Furthermore, a Muslim uses logic to deduce things that aren't non-issues about their faith, such as but not limited to: How do we know the Prophet Muhammad [saas] is really a Prophet sent by God? How do we know the Qu'ran came from God? What evidence is there for One God? How do Muslims know that what the Qu'ran claims about Jesus, the Bible, and the origins of the universe, etc., are true? And so on.

I'm only posting this so some of the Muslims here will take heed, and see when they are being dragged into pointless discussions.

And may God guide those of us astray. Ameen.

 

[Keltoi]

While I agree that some questions about God cannot be answered, I don't think that means we shouldn't ask the question. We weren't created to be mindless automatons. We have the ability to reason and make choices using free will. Yes, faith is the foundation of religion, but the strength of our faith comes from asking the difficult questions, not from avoiding them.

 

[Skavau]

There is a lot of non-issue talk on these boards. For example: Why did Allah [swt] create the people who He knew would disbelieve in Him? Isn't this a waste of time? The whole 'why is Allah like this' and 'why is Allah like that' and so on, are really pointless questions.

No. The questions may seem bizarre, but the point of the question transcends a direct "yes" or "no" answer to it. It is often to make a point concerning alleged logical inconsistencies with the notion of the existence of God as per Islam and Christianity - in this case, it refers to the fact that people could get punished for belief despite God always knowing they would be like that.

The reason is because you are using a human mind, the mind that HE created, to try to understand Him. This in and of itself is a logical problem.

To me, there is nothing other than a "human mind". The human mind is the only way we have to understand existence. I see claiming that we don't understand "God's Mind" as a rather anti-intellectual, arrogant and patronising response to a Non-Muslim making inquiries because it ignores the basis of asking the questions in the first place.

Trying to understand EVERYTHING about the One who created REALITY is like saying 'I am a machine that can record ALL sounds!' -This statement can't possibly be true, because that means you [the machine] would be able to record the sound that could shatter it [you] to pieces. The concept of trying to understand every single fine point about something as complex as God [Allah] is really just non-issue dribble.

Again, you do not understand the reasoning for asking the questions.

Now I know in saying that, people will say, "See, I knew you Muslims weren't logical! You just believe in things by blind faith! Using circular logic! blah blah blah!" -But this isn't the case. It is very logical to accept that we aren't going to understand EVERYTHING about a perfect entity who is different from anything we know, and created every concept and every 'thing.'

It is a lack of understanding as to why atheists ask the questions about God that we do. We don't ask to attempt to understand every little detail about God, we ask to try and highlight apparent logical contradictions and discrepancies in the definition that Muslims offer about God.

How do we know the Prophet Muhammad [saas] is really a Prophet sent by God? How do we know the Qu'ran came from God? What evidence is there for One God? How do Muslims know that what the Qu'ran claims about Jesus, the Bible, and the origins of the universe, etc., are true? And so on.

What exactly is invalid or meaningless about any of the above questions?

If you intend to convert atheists, or indeed Non-Muslims - they are questions you must answer.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

While I agree that some questions about God cannot be answered, I don't think that means we shouldn't ask the question. We weren't created to be mindless automatons. We have the ability to reason and make choices using free will. Yes, faith is the foundation of religion, but the strength of our faith comes from asking the difficult questions, not from avoiding them.

I am mainly speaking about people who ask the question knowing there is no answer and refusing to accept that it is perfectly logical to believe that some things, albeit few, we cannot know in this plane of existence about God. -This is pointless.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

No. The questions may seem bizarre, but the point of the question transcends a direct "yes" or "no" answer to it. It is often to make a point concerning alleged logical inconsistencies with the notion of the existence of God as per Islam and Christianity - in this case, it refers to the fact that people could get punished for belief despite God always knowing they would be like that.

But this is a non-issue. Because if the Qu'ran can be proven to be from God, and the Qu'ran says that this is true, then to point out something like this and question it is silly. The argument is not 'Why does Allah do such and such?' -But rather, 'Is Islam the truth?' Answering the latter in the affirmative means that the answer to the former, being that we can't always know why Allah [swt] does a thing, perfectly acceptable. So, the REAL question is, 'Is Islam the truth?' Not, 'Why is Allah the way He is?'

To me, there is nothing other than a "human mind". The human mind is the only way we have to understand existence. I see claiming that we don't understand "God's Mind" as a rather anti-intellectual, arrogant and patronising response to a Non-Muslim making inquiries because it ignores the basis of asking the questions in the first place.

I obviously don't agree that there is nothing other than the human mind, but I DO agree that the only way to understand and discern truth about existence is via human logic and reason, because there isn't another kind that we can use. However, it is reasonable to accept that human reason, while needed to understand and discern truth, still has it's limits. There is only so far thought can take us.

It is a lack of understanding as to why atheists ask the questions about God that we do. We don't ask to attempt to understand every little detail about God, we ask to try and highlight apparent logical contradictions and discrepancies in the definition that Muslims offer about God.

In a way you have proven my point. You are not here to accept a rational counter to your arguments whereby accepting a truth when it is presented, you are instead here to point out 'percieved' contradictions. -But what happens if there is a rational answer to those supposed inconsistencies? The fact that you admit that you are asking the questions to prove a point and not find the answer is exactly what I'm warning my brethren against... being pulled into pointless conversations by people disinterested in truth or reason, although they may claim they are interested in that very thing.

What exactly is invalid or meaningless about any of the above questions?

Nothing. If you read my post carefully you will see that those questions are the ones I'm saying are truly important, and not, 'Of what substance is God made of?' or 'Why does God create people he knows are going to hell?' and other such ilk.

 

[Eeman]

And may God guide those of us astray. Ameen.

:skeleton::skeleton::skeleton::skeleton:
God forbid...
i think you meant may God guide those of us who are astray.:statisfie

 

[Skavau]

But this is a non-issue. Because if the Qu'ran can be proven to be from God, and the Qu'ran says that this is true, then to point out something like this and question it is silly.

The key word there is if. If the Qu'ran can be 'proven' to be from God, then they are silly questions. Since the Qu'ran cannot, or has not been sufficiently demonstrated to be from God - they remain, at least for Atheists very valid questions.

The argument is not 'Why does Allah do such and such?' -But rather, 'Is Islam the truth?' Answering the latter in the affirmative means that the answer to the former, being that we can't always know why Allah [swt] does a thing, perfectly acceptable. So, the REAL question is, 'Is Islam the truth?' Not, 'Why is Allah the way He is?'

And yet, if Islam is to be proven, questions such as "Why does Allah do X?" or "Why did Allah commit Y"? have to be sufficiently answered. Otherwise, discrepancies with the definition of God still exist.

I obviously don't agree that there is nothing other than the human mind, but I DO agree that the only way to understand and discern truth about existence is via human logic and reason, because there isn't another kind that we can use.

Okay.

I hope that you shall now hold it up in higher regard.

However, it is reasonable to accept that human reason, while needed to understand and discern truth, still has it's limits. There is only so far thought can take us.

Possibly, possibly not.

Many things we have historically considered impossible to understand, now are possible to understand and comprehend. An individual human mind can only know so much and only understand so much - but collectively, the sum total of all human knowledge can arguably be considered infinite (if it persists). Our society is a testament to the collective work of human minds working to discover new things.

In a way you have proven my point. You are not here to accept a rational counter to your arguments whereby accepting a truth when it is presented, you are instead here to point out 'percieved' contradictions.

What is wrong with that? If a contradiction in a truth-claim exists, I am not going to accept it as truth. If you present a truth, it must be as convincing as truth actually is (ie: irrefutable) - if it isn't, then it cannot be considered truth.

But what happens if there is a rational answer to those supposed inconsistencies?

Then the supposed inconsistencies have been answered.

The fact that you admit that you are asking the questions to prove a point and not find the answer is exactly what I'm warning my brethren against...

No, we don't ask to prove a point and not find the answer. We ask for many reasons. I may ask in an attempt to get some people to challenge their deeply-held beliefs concerning God. I may ask to see if a rational answer for the alleged contradictions exists. I may ask for other reasons.

being pulled into pointless conversations by people disinterested in truth or reason, although they may claim they are interested in that very thing.

No. You are just assuming that.

There is no reason to assume that someone who asks questions about God is inherently disinterested in truth or reason.

Nothing. If you read my post carefully you will see that those questions are the ones I'm saying are truly important, and not, 'Of what substance is God made of?' or 'Why does God create people he knows are going to hell?' and other such ilk.

The part highlighted in bold is a very important question. It is a moral question for someone like me.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

The key word there is if. If the Qu'ran can be 'proven' to be from God, then they are silly questions. Since the Qu'ran cannot, or has not been sufficiently demonstrated to be from God - they remain, at least for Atheists very valid questions.

Well, the Qu'ran CAN be proven with sufficient evidence to have come from God. But that is not the topic of this forum. But I intend, inshallahta'ala, to post some information in that regard soon.

And yet, if Islam is to be proven, questions such as "Why does Allah do X?" or "Why did Allah commit Y"? have to be sufficiently answered. Otherwise, discrepancies with the definition of God still exist.

You are being inconsistent. You admitted in the quote just above that IF the Qu'ran can be proven true, such questions are silly. But now, just a few sentences later, you are saying that the question is no longer silly but MUST be answered in order for Islam to be proven.

Many things we have historically considered impossible to understand, now are possible to understand and comprehend. An individual human mind can only know so much and only understand so much - but collectively, the sum total of all human knowledge can arguably be considered infinite (if it persists). Our society is a testament to the collective work of human minds working to discover new things.

Right, I am not saying that the human mind is limited and that therefore logic is a weak thing in the grand scheme of things. The things we can accomplish with reason, intellect, wisdom, forethought, etc. are inspiring, indeed, to a believer such as myself, miraculous and of such a nature that such a complex concept cannot, to any stretch of my imagination, have developed on it's own without some superior force guiding it... So I am not belittling human thought... but even so, there are limits... for example, can you hold a thought in your head of what the entire universe looks like and see every small detail all at once? Every asteroid? Every planet? Every star? Every galaxy? Can you hold all of those images together in a single thought? No. At best you can imagine two or three of them at the same time, or maybe you can see all the galaxies floating out in black nothingness, but your mind, as miraculous as it is, cannot imagine too many things at once. It can't, for example, think ten coherent thoughts at the exact same time. It can't come up with a way to travel faster than the speed of light, and so on. So, it is limited.

And though logic will ultimately lead someone to the fact that Islam is the truth, it will also, undoubtedly lead one to believe, quite rationally, that this limited capacity [thought] cannot know every thing about the Creator who created the very reality that our minds operate in, and who created, not only our minds themselves, but the very concept of thought... and yet you expect thought to be able to grasp everything about the entity that created thought! It's the same logical fallacy as saying, as I originally pointed out, "There is a machine that can record ALL SOUND!" There is no way such a statement can be true, because can the machine record the sound that would shatter it to pieces? Likewise, our minds, as amazing as they are, cannot understand ALL things about the One who created thought, reality, etc. and thus exists just outside of those things. -So while reason/logic/thought can be used to understand the evidence as to who He is and what He wants of us, we may not be able to understand everything about how He operates... and thus, as I've said from the beginning, to have a conversation on that topic is a waste of everyone's time, and not really the issue anyways.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Nice post brother muslimCONVERT. Just to add to this,


if we have enough to make us convinced and have faith even though we have seen the atheistic and agnostic arguments in great detail (which i have as im sure most muslim members of this forum have) then im sure thats because islaam is rational and logical to us and believing in Allaah seems to be the most natural way intended for this life.

so im saying - we have enough to convince us of Allaah - others dont - we believe from what we have seen/read - others want more proof - do we waste our time trying to keep guiding them whilst guidance is in the hands of Allaah?


To me the case is and i can only pray shall always be that nothing is more clear and true then islaam.

Alhamdulillaah


Assalamu Alaikum

 

[Skavau]

Well, the Qu'ran CAN be proven with sufficient evidence to have come from God.

What constitutes 'evidence' in this instance? Can everyone recognise this supposed 'evidence'?

But that is not the topic of this forum. But I intend, inshallahta'ala, to post some information in that regard soon.

You asked why Atheists ask things about Allah such as "Why does Allah do X?". Your reasoning for why they were absurd was because they were not real nor valid questions concerning the truth of Islam per se. However, I explained to you that they were relevant due to the logical consequences of the answers to the questions. A key example of this is the Omniscience vs. Free-Will alleged contradiction, the Argument from Evil, Euthyphro Dilemma or the Torture in Hell inconsistencies. They are all valid questions that have philosophical and ethical merit.

And until you can overcome all of the contradictions I see in essentially all of them, it is unlikely I will ever be a Muslim - so for the interests of converting other people, they are questions you may well need to answer.

You are being inconsistent. You admitted in the quote just above that IF the Qu'ran can be proven true, such questions are silly.

Yes. But part of Islam being 'proven' true is that all of those questions be answered. If, lets say the Omniscience vs. Free-will alleged contradiction is not fully responded to and refuted - then Islam cannot be said to be proven true, because logical issues for many still exist in it.

Right, I am not saying that the human mind is limited and that therefore logic is a weak thing in the grand scheme of things. The things we can accomplish with reason, intellect, wisdom, forethought, etc. are inspiring, indeed, to a believer such as myself, miraculous and of such a nature that such a complex concept cannot, to any stretch of my imagination, have developed on it's own without some superior force guiding it...

Okay.

So I am not belittling human thought... but even so, there are limits... for example, can you hold a thought in your head of what the entire universe looks like and see every small detail all at once?

No.

But one day, we might have enough information for all of humanity collectively to have this knowledge.

Every asteroid? Every planet? Every star? Every galaxy? Can you hold all of those images together in a single thought? No. At best you can imagine two or three of them at the same time, or maybe you can see all the galaxies floating out in black nothingness, but your mind, as miraculous as it is, cannot imagine too many things at once. It can't, for example, think ten coherent thoughts at the exact same time. It can't come up with a way to travel faster than the speed of light, and so on. So, it is limited.

I don't disagree.

And though logic will ultimately lead someone to the fact that Islam is the truth

Stop right there.

How do you know this? You might, through logic believe Islam is the truth - but how do you know it applies to everyone per se?

it will also, undoubtedly lead one to believe, quite rationally, that this limited capacity [thought] cannot know every thing about the Creator who created the very reality that our minds operate in, and who created, not only our minds themselves, but the very concept of thought... and yet you expect thought to be able to grasp everything about the entity that created thought!

To me, I am not speaking of the 'Creator'. I don't believe in a 'Creator'.

I am being told by Muslims that a 'God' a 'deity' exists, and then being told of this deities specific attributes (omniscience, omnipotence, benevolence etc). I from that then criticise contradictions I think arise, or exist. I point out inconsistencies in the definition. Sure some might be unanswerable, but they still exist as contradictions and inconsistencies - at least to people like me.

 

[S1aveofA11ah]

Just a small point about Islam and logic and a little on Atheism.

As far as my knowledge goes not all of Islam can be understood by raw logic. For example, the ritual abulution (washing) needed for the 5 daily prayers (known in Arabic as 'Wudu') involves complete foot washing. However if one does the foot washing and then puts socks on then he may wipe wet hands over the socks. The way this is done is by pulling or stroking the two wet hands over the tops of the socks. Now logically one should wipe the soles of the socks as that is where the dirt would accumulate and the abulution is (partly) about physically being clean for prayers (it is also a 'mental' state - and Allah knows best). So some parts of Islam are acts of faith in the sense that we may never know the reasons why such and such is done. However, there are huge amounts of Islam where Allah has explained why we do such and such e.g. why we refrain from intoxicants and gambling, why we pray or fast etc. I believe there is a verse in the Qur'an paraphrased as: "...and you may think a thing is good for you when it is bad and vice versa..." - something to that affect.

As for Atheism and the strands of arguements I see things like this. Firstly it is up to each individual what he believes. The Muslims lived at peace with Jews, Christians and others for 900 years!. There will always be Atheists, Jews, Christians etc. in this world for years to come. It is not from Islam to 'convert at the sword' - this is a HUGE fallacy that has been spread for a long time to try and make Islam look bad.

Anyway I see it like this. All the Atheist/Islam arguements seem to be, often, a waste of time - with no disrespt to all parties. Some of the Muslims arguing don't seem to be well grounded enough in knowledge to have a decent debate. Some are - don't get me wrong.

Muslims believe that Allah exists (and hence that Allah alone should be worshipped) and Atheists don't. In fact, its Allah that has GUIDED Muslims to this belief - they could not have guided themselves. This is why an Atheist cannot in and of himself guide himself to Islam - all he/she can do is see a truth (or 'so-called' truth as the Atheist would put it) presented to him/her and either accept it or reject it. For example, a verse in the Qur'an states:

"And I have created the Jinns and Mankind to worship me alone" - the 'I' is referring to Allah, the Creator. Its up to the individual to ponder, analyse and understand this verse and then to either accept it or reject it.

I think both parties mainly 'agree to disagree'. Discussions after that seem futile. Its like trying to drink water from your glass when your glass is empty or drive your car to work without any petrol in the tank - 'your over before you've started' to coin the expression.

But I do like this (final for me!!!) arguement to Atheists (which is a peaceful invitation to Islam...):

If I told you that there is a beautiful palace - a most magnificent one made of pure glass and decorated with silver, gold and diamonds. Its size is huge and it has hundreds of rooms all beautifully furnished with beds, tables etc. Its sparkles like crystal. It has large gardens with fountains and lakes. Now if I told you that this palace came into existence by ITSELF you (the Atheist) would say that is a ridiculous claim - an impossibility!!.

Well how about this WHOLE creation - the planet Earth, the universe and all the life in it...surely it too must have a creator?.

 

[Skavau]

I think both parties should just agree to disagree. The arguements after that seem futile. Its like trying to drink water when your glass is empty or drive your car to work without any petrol in the tank - 'your over before you've started' to coin the expression.

You do realise this is the comparative religion subforum, right? People don't always debate just to convince each other.

If I told you that there is a beautiful palace - a most magnificent place made of pure glass and decorated with silver, gold and diamonds. Its size is huge and it has hundreds of rooms all beautifully furnished with beds, tables etc. It has large gardens with fountains and lakes. Now if I told you that this palace came into existence by ITSELF you (the Atheist) would say that is a ridiculous claim - an impossibility!!.

Well how about this WHOLE creation - the planet Earth, the universe and all the life in it...surely it too must have a creator?.

No.

You are comparing apples and oranges. We know palaces are created because understand the origins of palaces. They are man-made objects. The earth, the universe and all life in it are not man-made and we do not understand the origins of all of it.

There is nothing logical about the design argument. It proposes the simple assertion that everything of a complex nature necessitates a designer. This is simply not necessary with the universe.

If the terms for necessitating a designer are based upon the understanding that something is simply too 'complex' to come into existence itself then the same should simply apply to the designer. The designer proclaimed usually in Teleological Arguments (God) would have to be infinitely more complex and complicated than the universe ever could be. Therefore following the logic proposed by the argument that 'X is too complex to occur randomly or accidentally', the same would apply to God. However hard it is to consider that the universe simply came into existence arbitrarily or exists without the aid of a specific designer, it is infinitely harder to imagine how a deity of infinite proportion came into existence or exists without the aid of another specific designer.

The arguments assumption regarding this understanding therefore falls on its own sword. If it is declared in defense that "God does not necessitate a designer. God is eternal" then the entire argument as a logical proof for God's existence is reduced to a statement of faith. A declaration by decree that God is simply void from the rules asserted for the universe is simply a statement of faith and is entirely unverifiable. The defensive gesture of declaring that God is 'eternal' brings to question as to why the universe itself cannot be eternal? What is there to suppose that the universe was at one specific point created?

 

[AntiKarateKid]

It is useless, but alot of people like talking for the hell of it and it makes them feel "smarter".