Female honey bee? Arabic word?

[Whatsthepoint]

what about it?

No one has really systematically refuted her claims, have they?

 

[kay106]

No one has really systematically refuted her claims, have they?

Yes this persons (dont really know if its a male, female, ...) claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee, as far as i have concluded, a command with a yaa at the end makes it femanine. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee.

this persons claims is that when it is a yaa for a non intelligent specie it makes it plural, doesn't mean it is male or female. this is nonsense. I have asked her to proove it, she gave some text without even translating it, people are mocking at the thing she posted. see the posts. either she is talking without any knowledge, or she is trying to confuse me. also this point about female bee has been verified by schollars, such as Gary Miller, who is a revert from Christianity, Zakir Naik, ...... people who speak arabic, ......


Peace,

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes Her claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee, as far as i have concluded, a command with a yaa at the end makes it femanine. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee.

Peace,

She did mention something about intelligent and non-intelligent nouns, so her arguments do make sense
No one has argued or refuted her claims about grammar being different for intelligent and non-intelligent nouns like in this case.

 

[جوري]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

 

[Whatsthepoint]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

 

[kay106]

she did mention something about intelligent and non-intelligent nouns, so her arguments do make sense
no one has argued or refuted her claims about grammar being different for intelligent and non-intelligent nouns like in this case.

111

 

[kay106]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

the issues about the multiple bellies, AllahHuAlim, Allah knows best. i will leave this to the experts, i have found out what i needed to know.

 

[kay106]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

"this persons (dont really know if its a male, female, ...) claims does not make any sense, you can look at many contexes in the Quran, that when God commands a female to eat, it is kulee, when its a male it is Kul, when God commands a male to follow it is asluk. this is very very clear, as in the case of Female honey bee. "

Therefore if the verb is femanine, this means the subject is femanine too. whether people likes it or not. But this is the truth. LA ILAHA ILLAL ALLAH MUHAMMED RASUL ALLAH. 7 words changed the world for good. will change it more for the better, whether people likes it or not. ALAHAMDULLILAH HI RABBIL ALAMIN. All praises and thanks to the cherisher and sustainer of the worlds. I prostrate my 7 limbs (face, hands, knees, feets,) to Allah, lord of the 7 heavens and the glorious throne, whether people likes it or not!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

"it doesn't make sense that if it is a singluar femanine form it becomes plural because otherwise how do we refer to a singluar femanine bee then? that means we never can. this claim is baseless. "

I don't know, perhaps you can't.
That's one explanation Faye provided:

An-Nahl is 'Ism ul-Jins' or 'species name'. It can be used to give both singular and plural meaning. (Sort of like 'sheep' in English being used both for plural and singular) The use of kulli, fasluki and other singular feminine forms shows that it is being used in the plural meaning, as singular feminine form is used for plurals of non-intelligent nouns.

She may be wrong, but so far no arabic speaker has refuted her claims. Perhaps Purest Skye will in short notice.

the issues about the multiple bellies, AllahHuAlim, Allah knows best. It could easily refer to the segments. But i will leave this to the experts, i have found out what i needed to know.

Not that easily, but it's possible...

 

[kay106]

I don't know, perhaps you can't.
That's one explanation Faye provided:

She may be wrong, but so far no arabic speaker has refuted her claims. Perhaps Purest Skye will in short notice.


Not that easily, but it's possible...

How do you refute something which is not true, which is baseless. You ask them for proof, if they cant give it, means it is not true. Simple.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

How do you refute something which is not true, which is baseless. You ask them for proof, if they cant give it, means it is not true. Simple.

How do you know it's not true? Why do you think its baseless?
What proof do you want of her? She explained the grammar, she even told you which books she was using. What further evidence do you think she can come up with? If you disagree with the presented evidence, it's up to you and Arabic speakers to try to refute it, again using grammatical rules, examples etc. This is how grammatical debates work.
I'm neutral here, I have no idea who's right and who's wrong, but so far Faye is the only one to have presented evidence.

 

[جوري]

You said the verbs are feminine which doesn't refute her grammar claims and you haven't touched the multiple bellies issue.

Her claims are baseless, given that she doesn't speak Arabic, I can understand her difficulties in understanding basic grammar.. given your protracted caprices at utter nonesense I am not surprised either ( forgive me for pointing out the obvious)..

It is like you saying I have fused fingers because syndactyly exists and the burden of proof is upon me to prove otherwise.

Is this something I even wish to entertain? It is asinine on all grounds!
The verbs are feminine because the subject is feminine end of story!

cheers

 

[Faye]

I have already provided an explanation on the previous page, Arabic isn't her first language and she hasn't come back to refute me!

cheers

It's true, Arabic is not my first language, but we are studying Classical Arabic Grammer, with the focus being on Quranic Grammar.

A person with Arabic as their first language probably speaks 3ammiyah. And 3ammiyah is quite different from the language used in the Quran, particularly when it comes to vocabulary and grammar. Minute grammatical points used in the Quran may not be present or used in the everyday language. So, without making a study of Quranic Grammar, it is quite possible that a native speaker be mistaken.

Not that I am saying that my own grammar is anywhere close to perfect, as I am still a student, but the rule of feminine form being used for plurals of non-humans is very basic. We studied it in our first week at Madrassa.

The Ism-ul-Jins rule is more complex. We haven't officially studied it yet, but I knew it was there and looked it up in my books. I may be wrong about it, but I think I am correct.

The reason I don't agree with the feminine bee concept is not because it would be grammatically incorrect, but because the meaning would be off in that translation as it would say: "her bellies" (though I agree that if a bee has more than two abdomens, the concept of the feminine bee is not wrong). An alternate, also grammatically correct translation would use the grammatical rule of the feminine form being used for non-human groups, and translate it as "their bellies". All the translations I looked at translate it that way (one of my reasons for preferring my explanation), indicating that they have used that grammatical rule.

I suggest that in order to refute me, you give an alternate explanation for why so many translations translate "butooni-ha" as "their bellies".

 

[Faye]

P.S your example, is speaking of a pronoun and in the Quranic example is speaking of a verb..

I provided a verb as well (SaqaTat).

I think you can agree with a language as complex as Arabic, the complete set of inflected forms of a verb have to agree with the gender of the adjective!

Will you clarify this statement? The gender of the adjective is also feminine. (Hazihee) I don't understand what you intend to say here.

on a last note.. your above Arabic statement is wrought with grammatical errors.

What are the grammatical errors? What would be the correct form?

No one actually speaks or writes likes that!


waslaam 3lykoum wr wb

You speak and write 3ammiyyah, I speak, read and write Fus7ah. That's the difference.

 

[Faye]

itakhizhi is a verb, bee a pronoun!
the example is already given you in the Quran

Actually, bee is not a pronoun, it is noun.

The ha at the end of butooni-ha is a pronoun. It means hers (as in belonging to her).

And don't jump on me here claiming that I contradicted myself. It also means theirs (as in belonging to them, or of them) when referring to non-humans.

 

[Faye]

when God commands a male to follow it is asluk, when it is female it is faslukee.

Correction: when God commands a male to follow it is osluk, when it is female it is oslukee. The fa behind it means 'so'

 

[kay106]

Correction: when God commands a male to follow it is osluk, when it is female it is oslukee. The fa behind it means 'so'

the point was that the EE means that God is talking to a femanine. Get the point? seems to me your admitting it, EE makes it femanine.

 

[kay106]

It's true, Arabic is not my first language, but we are studying Classical Arabic Grammer, with the focus being on Quranic Grammar.

A person with Arabic as their first language probably speaks 3ammiyah. And 3ammiyah is quite different from the language used in the Quran, particularly when it comes to vocabulary and grammar. Minute grammatical points used in the Quran may not be present or used in the everyday language. So, without making a study of Quranic Grammar, it is quite possible that a native speaker be mistaken.

Not that I am saying that my own grammar is anywhere close to perfect, as I am still a student, but the rule of feminine form being used for plurals of non-humans is very basic. We studied it in our first week at Madrassa.

The Ism-ul-Jins rule is more complex. We haven't officially studied it yet, but I knew it was there and looked it up in my books. I may be wrong about it, but I think I am correct.

The reason I don't agree with the feminine bee concept is not because it would be grammatically incorrect, but because the meaning would be off in that translation as it would say: "her bellies" (though I agree that if a bee has more than two abdomens, the concept of the feminine bee is not wrong). An alternate, also grammatically correct translation would use the grammatical rule of the feminine form being used for non-human groups, and translate it as "their bellies". All the translations I looked at translate it that way (one of my reasons for preferring my explanation), indicating that they have used that grammatical rule.

I suggest that in order to refute me, you give an alternate explanation for why so many translations translate "butooni-ha" as "their bellies".

we are talking about aslukee, faslukee, attakhizee. not Butunha, Like i have mentioned earlier, a command word with a Yaa at the end means the subject is femanine.

Now you claims that that because Butunha could mean "their" thats why the bee is not femanine? thats why the yaa at the end makes it plural? dont make any sense.

The Arabic grammer is derived from the Quran.

 

[kay106]

How do you know it's not true? Why do you think its baseless?
What proof do you want of her? She explained the grammar, she even told you which books she was using. What further evidence do you think she can come up with? If you disagree with the presented evidence, it's up to you and Arabic speakers to try to refute it, again using grammatical rules, examples etc. This is how grammatical debates work.
I'm neutral here, I have no idea who's right and who's wrong, but so far Faye is the only one to have presented evidence.

according to you the presented evidence is "yaa makes it plural" doesn't mean God is commanding a female bee. Dont make any sense, where is the evidence for that? that non-intelligent noun becomes plural by verbs.

 

[kay106]

how do you say her book in arabic, it is kitabuha, the book is non intelligent, so does that become plural?