Female honey bee? Arabic word?

[جوري]

Sorry to bug you sis, but i need to get to the bottom of this.

So butooniha, does this mean her bellies, or their [female] bellies?

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

 

[kay106]

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

so is it her bellies? not their [female] bellies?

 

[جوري]

it is plural!

 

[kay106]

it is plural!

meaning "their [female] bellies"? Sorry sis, I am not very intelligent.

 

[جوري]

yes their female bellies.... although and I don't wish to get colourful I have linked to the fact that the honey bee has two stomachs.. so at this point I suggest you take the matter with a scholar either on
http://askthescholar.com/

or http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...Online-English-Ask_Scholar/Page/FatwaCounselE

I am not a scholar in Islamic text and have only a portion of the Quran memorized.. I am really in no position to offer specific exegetical interpretation.. I only give you an answer as I understand it..

 

[Whatsthepoint]

'whatisthepoint' is somewhat interested in psychology and likes to use this method called 'trap questions' where the questioner is usually presumptuous and repetitive, in the process he gets 'contradictory answers' a general interplay on each individual's level of education and in using the rhetorical device trips people, so that at some point they will answer the question incorrectly, and he can in the practice affirm his own psychology which is to maintain a certain level of cognitive conservatism when not open for things contradictory from his own beliefs!

lol!
I've never heard of this particular method and certainly haven't been using it, at least not consciously.
I am simply asking question, I may repeat them if I do not get an adequate reply (which in your case happens a lot), the second and the third question might be different based on the replies you have given me.
I may have pointed to inconsistencies in yours or someone else's replies, but that doesn't mean that the only reason I asked the questions was to find inconsistencies.
I am not using any rhetorical devices, again not consciously. I'd like you to point out to a rhetorical device I used.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

yes their female bellies.... although and I don't wish to get colourful I have linked to the fact that the honey bee has two stomachs..

You said you don't like repetivie questions, but you haven answered this:

The honeybee's got two stomachs, the verse uses plural even though it should be dual. You said dual for her/their bellies doesn't exist, how so?
The verse says:
There cometh forth from their bellies a drink divers of hues
So if we are to consider belly = stomach, only one stomach fits in the verse, the honey-making-and-storing stomach, so in fact singular should be used, as honey comes from one stomach only.
That is of course if belly even equals stomach, it does in English, it doesn't in certain other languages, so my question is, can belly be used as a synonym for stomach in Arabic?
That's not splitting hair.

 

[جوري]

lol!
I've never heard of this particular method and certainly haven't been using it, at least not consciously.
I am simply asking question, I may repeat them if I do not get an adequate reply (which in your case happens a lot), the second and the third question might be different based on the replies you have given me.
I may have pointed to inconsistencies in yours or someone else's replies, but that doesn't mean that the only reason I asked the questions was to find inconsistencies.
I am not using any rhetorical devices, again not consciously. I'd like you to point out to a rhetorical device I used.

reapeating the same question different style ad nauseam is a very well known device used by some psychologists.. and it is a ridiculous method to elicit a reply...
at this stage I'll advise you to do the same thing I advised Kay.. I have linked to two sites where you can ask the scholar about specific exegesis..

peace

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Yes!
Honey does come from the female belly!

I'm gonna ask a question.
I'm not gonna enroll in an arabic class in the near future, so this forum is the only place where I can ask arabic question, which I don't find bad, that's what web forums are for.
The article Faye translated doesn't answered this, except of course if batn (belly) fits in both-masculine-and-feminine category.

bootooniha is supposed to be feminine plural.
batn on the other hand is masculine.
You said the conjugation is feminine.
What exactly did you mean by "conjugation"? because conjugation is a verb not a noun thing.

You must understand that your replies are often confusing, so I keep on questioning. I'm not doing it to confuse you or anyone.

2. Does the fact that bellies are feminine necessarily mean that they belong to a feminine bee? This question may seem absurd but I have to ask it based on the information I have gotten from your person so far.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

reapeating the same question different style ad nauseam is a very well known device used by some psychologists.. and it is a ridiculous method to elicit a reply...
at this stage I'll advise you to do the same thing I advised Kay.. I have linked to two sites where you can ask the scholar about specific exegesis..

peace

I'm not a psycholigisty and I told you why I repeat certain question, I just don't give up that easily, like yourself I guess.
Asking a scholar takes time and you can't debate with them.

 

[جوري]

I'm gonna ask a question.
I'm not gonna enroll in an arabic class in the near future, so this forum is the only place where I can ask arabic question, which I don't find bad, that's what web forums are for.
The article Faye translated doesn't answered this, except of course if batn (belly) fits in both-masculine-and-feminine category.

batn by itself has no gender it is the noun prior to giving it a gender
from fay's post to the arabic article I linked!

2. There are some nouns which are used by the Arab as both masculine and feminine. Examples are Sabeel (path), Hayyah (snake), 3onoq (neck) and Tareeq (road). Thus both masculine and feminine forms maybe used with them.

bootooniha is supposed to be feminine plural.

yes

batn on the other hand is masculine.

see quote above by faye to Arabic link I posted

You said the conjugation is feminine.
What exactly did you mean by "conjugation"? because conjugation is a verb not a noun thing.

in Arabic we have no 'it' we must engender those as well, look at the translated page and you'll see things must take the fem or masc. few exceptions are listed

You must understand that your replies are often confusing, so I keep on questioning. I'm not doing it to confuse you or anyone.

It is because most folks start with basic grammar not jump into exegesis..

like in french you need first to learn basic parts
j'ai parle
tu as parle
ila a parle
elle a parle
vous avez parle
ils ont parle
elles ont parle
all before you get into Puis mangez de toute espèce de fruits, et suivez les sentiers de votre Seigneur, rendus faciles pour vous. De leur ventre, sort une liqueur, aux couleurs variées, dans laquelle il y a une guérison pour les gens. Il y a vraiment là une preuve pour des gens qui réfléchissent.

2. Does the fact that bellies are feminine necessarily mean that they belong to a feminine bee? This question may seem absurd but I have to ask it based on the information I have gotten from your person so far.

Ask yourself a question, does honey come from the belly of a female or the male bee? once you have established that part the whole verse will make sense!

peace!

 

[Faye]

The male/female-ness of the belly doesn't matter.

What actually matters is the male/female-ness of the owner of the belly, referred to as 'ha', in the word butooni-ha, which comprises of a noun (butoon) and a pronoun (ha) occurring in a manner which indicates posession of the first (stomach) by the second (ha)

It is agreed that 'ha' is feminine singular according to conjugation (I think. If anybody disagrees, say so). According to Skye, it is feminine plural in meaning, and according to me it is plural genderless in meaning.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Thanks, that was a very good reply!

batn by itself has no gender it is the noun prior to giving it a gender
from fay's post to the arabic article I linked!

Sa Faye was wrong saying batn is masculine.

like in french you need first to learn basic parts
j'ai parlé/parlée
tu as parlé/parlée
il a parlé
elle a parlé
vous avez parlés/parlées
ils ont parlés
elles ont parlées

Indeed you do.:-[

Ask yourself a question, does honey come from the belly of a female or the male bee? once you have established that part the whole verse will make sense!

It comes from a female's belly, which is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

The male/female-ness of the belly doesn't matter.

What actually matters is the male/female-ness of the owner of the belly, referred to as 'ha', in the word butooni-ha, which comprises of a noun (butoon) and a pronoun (ha) occurring in a manner which indicates posession of the first (stomach) by the second (ha)

It is agreed that 'ha' is feminine singular according to conjugation (I think. If anybody disagrees, say so). According to Skye, it is feminine plural in meaning, and according to me it is plural genderless in meaning.

Yours sounds more logical, though I'm not sure logic can be applied when studying a foreign language..

 

[جوري]

is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

Batn (belly)
batni (my belly)
batnoho (his belly)
batanak (your belly)
batnaha(her belly)
bootoniunna( plural feminine) to thinking females
(bootoniha( plural feminine) to nonthinking (it)
bootonihim ( masculine but to me can be used for both male and females) like in the verse of ants idkholuo rather than idkhouli

It has been a while since I did grammar so you are free to take all this with a grain of salt..

peace

 

[Faye]

Important Points:
1. Most feminine nouns have alif maqsoorah at the end (written as a ya, pronounced as alif) like Salma, or alif mamdoodah at the end (alif followed by hamzah and preceded by a fathah) like Hasanaa2, or ta2 marbooTah at the end like Khadijah.
2. There are some nouns which are used by the Arab as both masculine and feminine. Examples are Sabeel (path), Hayyah (snake), 3onoq (neck) and Tareeq (road). Thus both masculine and feminine forms maybe used with them.
3. There are some conditions found only in females, which males do not share with them, like HayZ (menstruation), It2aam (widowhood) and Talaaq (divorce), and adjectives made from these words do not have a ta2 at their end. So you do not say, This is a Ha2iZah (menstruating) or Mo3timah (widowed) or Taaliqah (divorced) woman, but you say This is a Ha2iz (menstruating), or Mo3tim (widowed) or Taaliq (divorced) woman.
4. There are those adjectives which the Arabs use to refer to both females and males, without any change. Examples Saboorun (patient), Hanoonun (loving, affectionate in a motherly manner), Jareehun (injured), Qateelun (dead). So they say a Hanoonun (loving) man and a Hanoonun woman, and an injured (jareehun) man and a jareehun woman.

Explanation for this article.
All nouns in Arabic have a gender, male or female. There are some nouns which are intrinsically female, or intrinsically male, because they refer to a male or female person, or to a male or female animal.
Most nouns have an indication at the end indicating femininty, if they are feminine and the lack of such indication is taken as an indication of masculinity.
All other nouns are genderless (it) according to meaning, but are conjugated as either masculine or feminine according to grammar, which does not effect its meaning. Among these are those adjective which are by indication male, but used for both sexes and can be conjugated as either, and those nouns which are by indication male but used only for females.

By the conjugation of a noun, I mean that the pronouns, adjectives and verb forms will be according to what it is conjugated as.

BaTn = stomach is among the genderless nouns, and whatever it is conjugated as will not affect the meaning.

 

[Faye]

Sa Faye was wrong saying batn is masculine.

BaTn is masculine according to conjugation, and 'it' according to meaning. But that, as I said in my previous post, is irrelevant.

It comes from a female's belly, which is a whole different thing than a grammatically feminine belly.
But if the belly can be both feminine and masculine you may have a point.

How can a belly be feminine or masculine in any way other than grammatically? A belly is a belly is a belly. Only people or animals have actual sexes.

 

[Faye]

Batn (belly)
batn-i (my belly)
batn-oho (his belly)
batan-ak (your belly)
batna-ha(her belly)
booton-iunna( plural feminine) to thinking females
(booton-iha( plural feminine) to nonthinking (it)
booton-ihim ( masculine but to me can be used for both male and females) like in the verse of ants idkholuo rather than idkhouli

It has been a while since I did grammar so you are free to take all this with a grain of salt..

peace

Finally something we can agree on whole heartedly.

I added (-)s to Skye's quote to clarify that what comes after the (-) is the pronoun to whom it belongs to.

BTW, I agree about the pronoun 'him'. It is used for a group of males, or a group containing males and females.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

BaTn is masculine according to conjugation, and 'it' according to meaning. But that, as I said in my previous post, is irrelevant.

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

 

[جوري]

Can you conjugate it to be grammatically feminine?
Does bootoniha imply that the belly (without possesive pronouns) is feminine in any way?
I think that's what Skyw is trying to say..

The problem is you think of 'belly' by itself as fem or masc. when fay already explained to you, it is the one who possesses the belly that is engendered, in Arabic you can combine two words in one so instead of me saying (she ate) as an example. I can say (akalat), the eating isn't fem. or masc., but the implication is the one who ate is female..

do you understand?