Being an atheist.

[Pygoscelis]

Exactly, it is common sense, so my objection why demand factual proof of God. God can give non-arguable proof for every generation, but in that case, believing won't be a matter of choice.

I fail to see why that would be a bad thing. Obedience would still be a matter of choice. How we act on the information once believed would still be a matter of choice. And if you don't believe, is it really an informed choice?

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I fail to see why that would be a bad thing. Obedience would still be a matter of choice. How we act on the information once believed would still be a matter of choice. And if you don't believe, is it really an informed choice?

it is a very well informed choice

you have all the sources, you are informed. You are on an islamic forum and you have the Quran at your finger tips.

You have access to every preacher and teacher, everything you need to start building up faith.


but you also have all philosophies, arguments and debates, books of many atheists/agnostics and the like. You've seen both sides and made an informed choice.


if you choose to think your lifes a random chance, thats your choice after everything you've been through and seen

 

[Converse02]

Hi everyone,
I'm an atheist and new here. I was a bit surprised to see there are other atheists here, but I think that's a good thing. We are very much misunderstood.

Anyway, I thought I'll jump in this "being an atheist" thread as I am one by responding to the thread above.

if you choose to think your lifes a random chance, thats your choice after everything you've been through and seen

I do not think my life is purely random chance. Science has revealed I am here through evolution by natural selection. Natural selection is non-random.

Life is, of course, partly random chance. For example, there are types of genetic mutations and environmental factors that are completely and mathematically random.

I know many children who developed horrible cancers and died a painful death. The DNA in their body underwent a random mutation, became immortalize, metastasizes and consumed the host. I do not accept or have reason to suspect some supernatural hand was at play.

 

[جوري]

Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath...
how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions? further how does evolution work, and what do you mean by random mutations? Do you know of any mutations other than those documeted frameshift, missense, nonsense mutations etc, even jumping genes or acrocentric breaks in DNA do we know any of those to actually cause speciation?

to begin with, where and how and for what purpose did life originate, and if your 'natural selection' was non-random... then what is the driving force behind it?

Atheists aren't misunderstood at all.. they are devoutly religious, only from the opposite end of the spectrum!


cheers

 

[جوري]

Sixten and all.

My veiws are not based on experience. I have no experience of God, as , i would argue, nobody else has.
My veiws are based on people who lived 1-4 thousand years ago's perceived experience of God which they decided to Jot down, decided by them to be unchangable by us, even though it has been multipley, to the doom of us all.

How is religion the doom of us all? considering most mass massacres in the world happened on the hands of atheists?

People can have an amazing relationship/experience with God... but you would attribute it to chance, or 'luck' or or or many of the multiple explanations that never in fact observe the law of parsimony, which was supposedly establihed to enforce logic and abnegate the 'supernatural'


cheers

 

[Converse02]

Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath...

Why, scientists do it all the time?

I will answer your questions, but I hope you will verify these answers and actually try to learn biology from going to school, reading books, and asking professors than going online asking some random poster.

how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?

Simple. Not all trinucleotide repeat expansion to the next generation are harmful. They get passed on generation to generation. They are not naturally selected out. It is only when the trinucleotide repeats reach a certain threshold through genetic anticipation that they becomes dangerous.

A healthy person's genome can develop, by dynamic mutation, trinucleotide repeat expansion. Slippage in DNA replication causes it.

Now explain to me, how does "Islam" reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?

further how does evolution work

It was discovered, 150 years ago, by Darwin, that evolution works by natural selection. He summarized his evidence in Origin of Species, and it has been largely confirmed and further expanded by scientists across the planet in nearly all major scientific universities and organizations on Earth.

What does Islam tell you about evolution? Where is the empiric evidence that it is true?

and what do you mean by random mutations?

Look up the mathematical definition of "random" and then the biological definition of "mutation." It's that simple.

Do you know of any mutations other than those documeted frameshift, missense, nonsense mutations etc, even jumping genes or acrocentric breaks in DNA do we know any of those to actually cause speciation?

Yes. All species on earth is the results of gradual accumulation of mutation of some sort. Here are some old lists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
If you type "speciation" in pubmed, you get 8000 hits.
Try this from Berkeley:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml

There are many examples in agriculture of artificial speciation.

to begin with, where and how and for what purpose did life originate

Where: somewhere in a primordial soup.
How: There are multiple possible idea in science on this (RNA world, clay, etc). I think anyone could be possible.
What: The purpose of biological life on Earth is what they make of it.
What are the answers to these questions in Islam?

and if your 'natural selection' was non-random... then what is the driving force behind it? cheers

Nature is the driving force behind the selection...You know, natural selection.
Imagine you have a bunch of alleles, some produce faster tigers and some slower tigers. Which ones do you think will be selected for? It's surely not random.

 

[Converse02]

How is religion the doom of us all? considering most mass massacres in the world happened on the hands of atheists?

People can have an amazing relationship/experience with God... but you would attribute it to chance, or 'luck' or or or many of the multiple explanations that never in fact observe the law of parsimony, which was supposedly establihed to enforce logic and abnegate the 'supernatural'

cheers

People kill for God, no one has ever killed for "no God" or atheism. What would be the point?

There is no reason to believe anyone actually had a relationship with some invisible guy with magical powers. I doubt anyone would attribute it all to "luck" or chance, although it probably played a role. Do you think chance and randomness do not exist? Do you even know what chance is?

 

[Converse02]

Atheists aren't misunderstood at all.. they are devoutly religious, only from the opposite end of the spectrum!

This is a perfect example of how we are misunderstood.

Merely not believing in something, whether it be Zeus, Allah, Jesus, or Xenu, can't be called a religion.

 

[energy_22]

Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath.........

Mutations and natural selection go together.

I have a small cist on my arm. It is an example of a mutation.

Religious people say “the odds of such and such are a billion to 1 and therefore a superior being must have created it ”

Each and every day there are a billion mutations like my cist in the natural world.

Only 1 succeeds and 999,999,999 fail.

The reason the mutations succeed or fail is natural selection.

Cheers!

 

[جوري]

Why, scientists do it all the time?

Are you appealing to authority or speaking on behalf of the whole?

I will answer your questions, but I hope you will verify these answers and actually try to learn biology from going to school, reading books, and asking professors than going online asking some random poster.

I'll be waiting-- I am sure unlike what we are accustomed to, this time around it will be very interesting!

Simple. Not all trinucleotide repeat expansion to the next generation are harmful. They get passed on generation to generation. They are not naturally selected out. It is only when the trinucleotide repeats reach a certain threshold through genetic anticipation that they becomes dangerous.

I am aware what trinucleotide repeat expansion are, I wouldn't have put them there for you to ponder otherwise.. I am not sure why you are giving me a mental lexicon rather than concilliating why natural selection could have allowd its antithesis to go on?

A healthy person's genome can develop, by dynamic mutation, trinucleotide repeat expansion. Slippage in DNA replication causes it.

see my above reply.. I have already defined several mutations for you in my previous post and would like for you to demonstrate for me, which on of them was proven to cause 'speciation'!

Now explain to me, how does "Islam" reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?

What is there so reconcile? suffering is part of the human condition, Islam however doesn't impose theories that it can't later attest!

It was discovered, 150 years ago, by Darwin, that evolution works by natural selection. He summarized his evidence in Origin of Species, and it has been largely confirmed and further expanded by scientists across the planet in nearly all major scientific universities and organizations on Earth.

What was discovered? about a hundred years ago Dr. D'arcy Thompson of scotland's university of St. Andrews, perhaps the greatest polymath, wrote a book also taught in major universities where he marries both math and zoology beautifully in his on Growth and Form and challenges some atheio-conventional wissdom, in fact in the very least his book honors one of the most basic laws of science which is the principle of parsimony.. Does Dawkin et al. at the humanism dept. discuss his work so that you can be at ease cutting and pasting should I drop a future query? I digress though,...you see, you haven't reconcilled for me how 'natural selection' allows for something, that you have merely googled 20 mins ago to go on for generations with worsening rather than resulting in the evolution of organisms best adapted to the environment which is what natural selection is by definition. perhaps you ought to give it some thought?

What does Islam tell you about evolution? Where is the empiric evidence that it is true?

Islam deals with human destiny, morality, social structure, politics, humanism, economics, and spiritual fulfilment .. what would you like it to tell me of evolution? Whether evo is the way it happened as you imagine along with 7-10% of the population or not.. what you define as 'nature' I define as God.. and God is the driving force behind life!

Look up the mathematical definition of "random" and then the biological definition of "mutation." It's that simple.

I have defined several mutations for you, I'd like you to take the time to demonstrate for me how from a parasitic protozoa we have evolved into complex beings using those random mutations.. and later devloped sentience, further explain to me why it is necessary to evolve into humans of both sexes or why death is necessary in the process... shouldn't the end product of evolution be perfection?

Yes. All species on earth is the results of gradual accumulation of mutation of some sort. Here are some old lists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
If you type "speciation" in pubmed, you get 8000 hits.
Try this from Berkeley:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtml

All of the atheists that have so far come on board have shared with us this gem of a site, but for some reason can't gauge the topic so that it merely rolls off their keyboard perfectly sensical...
There is such a thing as theoretical science rather than one of practical considerations, until such a time when you use modern technology and I assure you the useage of vectors is very real, to demonstrate for us these amazing transformation, it will remain in the realm of science fiction/ religion for new age folks such as yourself!

There are many examples in agriculture of artificial speciation.

indeed and we have a geneticist here on board, who can tell you a thing or two about breeding cotton and how he personally has a direct hand in the process.. that it doesn't merely happen at because it lay there for an unspecified period of time and decided it was bored with one form to morph into another!

Where: somewhere in a primordial soup.
How: There are multiple possible idea in science on this (RNA world, clay, etc). I think anyone could be possible.
What: The purpose of biological life on Earth is what they make of it.
What are the answers to these questions in Islam?

This is funny..
it is like telling me, when people have a headache they can take an aspirin or an acetaminophen or anacin, or panadol or phenacetin.. what is my take home lesson du jour here? go out there and decipher what you may?

Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip, the way you do of your brand of science.. which is a shame really for one to speak of the entire scientific community and do such an inadequate job of it..

we have a discover Islam section where it can answer you some basic questions if you are in fact genuinly interested!

Nature is the driving force behind the selection...You know, natural selection.
Imagine you have a bunch of alleles, some produce faster tigers and some slower tigers. Which ones do you think will be selected for? It's surely not random.

who or what is nature? as to whom will be selected, well once again I say we have many different forms of trinucleotide repeat expansions which not only get selected but get worst and worst with each generation, how can 'nature' allow for that, denying its very basic principal?
Try to focus your compositions so that it is less visceral, especially when you are supposedly dealing with logic!...

cheers

 

[جوري]

People kill for God, no one has ever killed for "no God" or atheism. What would be the point?

There is no reason to believe anyone actually had a relationship with some invisible guy with magical powers. I doubt anyone would attribute it all to "luck" or chance, although it probably played a role. Do you think chance and randomness do not exist? Do you even know what chance is?

Perhaps you should define chance for us and why it favors some more than others?

People don't kill for God.. they kill because they are evil.. and more evil has been demonstrated by atheists than all the religions combined..

that is actually a fact!


cheers

 

[جوري]

This is a perfect example of how we are misunderstood.

Merely not believing in something, whether it be Zeus, Allah, Jesus, or Xenu, can't be called a religion.

But you do believe in something.. you just can't articulate it really well (which is a shame) so you'd rather reference us to some pages or give us the dictionary definition, as if none of us here have seen or perceived anything like it!

 

[جوري]

Mutations and natural selection go together.

They do?.. that is amazing.. which of the mutations do you consider helpful to us?

I have a small cist on my arm. It is an example of a mutation.

what is a 'cist' and you might want to have that looked it, just might end up being a Pityriasis lichenoides et varioliformis acuta.. eh if caused by a 'mutation' I wouldn't wait!

Religious people say “the odds of such and such are a billion to 1 and therefore a superior being must have created it ”

Your point being?

Each and every day there are a billion mutations like my cist in the natural world.

Yeah tell us more about that and how it relates to unicellular organisms becoming human?

Only 1 succeeds and 999,999,999 fail.

The reason the mutations succeed or fail is natural selection.

Cheers!

You've tickled me pink.... pls do thank your 'lucky stars' this isn't a paper you are being graded on..

cheers

 

[Converse02]

Are you appealing to authority or speaking on behalf of the whole?

I am appealing to a legitimate authority, scientists, which the vast majority of accept evolution. The scientists who are evolutionists have the fossils, they win.
What's wrong with that?

I am aware what trinucleotide repeat expansion are, I wouldn't have put them there for you to ponder otherwise.. I am not sure why you are giving me a mental lexicon rather than concilliating why natural selection could have allowd its antithesis to go on?

You obviously do not know what a trinucleotide repeat expansion is. If you did, you wouldn't have asked me such a simple question any genetics student could answer. What is the "antithesis" of natural selection? I have just answered how TNRs and evolution are compatible.

What was discovered?

Evolution by natural selection.

About a hundred years ago Dr. D'arcy Thompson of scotland's university of St. Andrews, perhaps the greatest polymath, wrote a book also taught in major universities where he marries both math and zoology beautifully in his on Growth and Form and challenges some atheio-conventional wissdom, in fact in the very least his book honors one of the most basic laws of science which is the principle of parsimony.. Does Dawkin et al. at the humanism dept. discuss his work so that you can be at ease cutting and pasting should I drop a future query?

Dr. D'arcy Thompson work is interesting. It doesn't refute evolution by natural selection.

I digress though,...you see, you haven't reconcilled for me how 'natural selection' allows for something, that you have merely googled 20 mins ago to go on for generations with worsening rather than resulting in the evolution of organisms best adapted to the environment which is what natural selection is by definition. perhaps you ought to give it some thought?

I have reconciled it, let me repeat it for you again. Please read a textbook or email a professor to confirm. It is not that hard to understand with a little work.

TNRs DO NOT necessarily lead to a worst outcome in the next generation. The next generation, although the genotype is with extra TNRs, may be phenotypically the same. If the creature is phenotypically the same, the worsening genes are passed on, they are not selected out. Many TNRs are harmful ONLY AFTER reaching a certain threshold. When it reaches this point, it is then selected out.
TNRs come into being de novo by DNA slippage during replication.

 

[Converse02]

All of the atheists that have so far come on board have shared with us this gem of a site, but for some reason can't gauge the topic so that it merely rolls off their keyboard perfectly sensical...

The site is the most concise one out there based on published scientific data, it is the best.
Pubmed and talkorigins are sites used by many scientists, they are indeed a gem.

indeed and we have a geneticist here on board, who can tell you a thing or two about breeding cotton and how he personally has a direct hand in the process.. that it doesn't merely happen at because it lay there for an unspecified period of time and decided it was bored with one form to morph into another!

I will be interested in reading his published scientific papers, what is his name and what university did he attend?
An individual cotton plant doesn't get bored and morph, but it's progeny are certainly morphology different in subtle ways from the parent. It's germline DNA the changes by recombination and by mutation. Your understanding of evolution is rather poor. Perhaps you would be more willing to accept it if you took a class in it?

it is like telling me, when people have a headache they can take an aspirin or an acetaminophen or anacin, or panadol or phenacetin.

Yes, when people do have a headache, some DO take aspirin or acetaminophen. What is some funny about it?

Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip, the way you do of your brand of science.. which is a shame really for one to speak of the entire scientific community and do such an inadequate job of it..

What is a shame is your lack of understanding of science and you inability to give an Islamic answer. You do not even know what a "random mutation" is.

How have I done an inadequate job?
I do not speak for the entire scientific community. The pubmed website does. The talkorigins website cites scientists. Scientist that have published, and given data and evidence. If you have a question about the individual papers, you can contact the scientists cited.

I say we have many different forms of trinucleotide repeat expansions which not only get selected but get worst and worst with each generation, how can 'nature' allow for that, denying its very basic principal?
Try to focus your compositions so that it is less visceral, especially when you are supposedly dealing with logic!...

I will answer a THIRD time. It is a very simple question you can answer with a very BASIC understanding of genetics. Instead of being lazy, why not go to a university or email a university professor or read a book instead of asking some random person who you do no know on the islamicforum, who you do not seem to trust anyway?

TNRs are caused de novo (anew) by DNA slippage.
The GENOTYPE gets worse and worse, NOT THE PHENOTYPE. The mutation initially SILENT. It will therefore get pass to generation to generation (understand?).
It is only AFTER a threshold will the TNR mutation reveals itself, so it becomes selected out.
Please try to grasp this.

 

[Converse02]

Perhaps you should define chance for us and why it favors some more than others?

People don't kill for God.. they kill because they are evil.. and more evil has been demonstrated by atheists than all the religions combined..

that is actually a fact!


cheers

Here is a page of randomness, goto the biology section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness
Seriously, you have to READ and get yourself education on evolution.

People do kill for God. The last recorded words of the 9/11 hijackers were concerning God. Not all people who kill are evil, some kill in self-defense. So you are wrong, again.

Atheists have killed, just like people who don't believe in the Santa and the Tooth fairy have killed. In fact, more killing has been demostrated by non-Santa believers than Santa believers and that's a fact!!
It doesn't mean Santa is real.

 

[Converse02]

Originally Posted by energy_22 View Post
Mutations and natural selection go together."

they do?.. that is amazing.. which of the mutations do you consider helpful to us?

Mutation and natural selection do go together. Where did you learn they do not? Which textbook? This is very BASIC knowledge concerning evolution.

Take malaria resistance. It is a result of a mutation.
The genetic disorder is due to the mutation of a single nucleotide, from a GAG to GUG codon mutation. This is normally a benign mutation, causing no apparent effects on the secondary. Very useful if you are in a malaria infested area.

This, again, is very basic knowledge to any genetics student.

 

[Converse02]

Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip...

What an excuse for being unable to answer. What a shame.
Please, will another Muslim, more educated and able to look up a dictionary (like the meaning of "random" and "mutation") please step up.

 

[Converse02]

To Tumble

I have received you message, but cannot answer because I am under 50. Hope you do not mind.

I majored in biochemistry, am also a medical doctor with research experience also, and yes, very very sure of things. You could have fooled me, her lack of understanding in genetics and evolution is a shame, especially for a doctor. She asked "further how does evolution work?" Are you kidding me?

I have answered her trinucleotide repeat question, it is pitiful another research doctor would not know it by second nature. It is also pitiful she would debate TNRs on the islamicforum. If she has a dispute with it, bring it up with the scientific community at the university level with for own research, not at a forum.

If she is truly a medical doctor with research experience, she will know that the vast majority of scientists disagree with the Islamic slant and support evolution. Science fully supports evolution, everyone knows it, especially a doctor.

 

[جوري]

I am appealing to a legitimate authority, scientists, which the vast majority of accept evolution. The scientists who are evolutionists have the fossils, they win.
What's wrong with that?

'appealing to authority' is a logical fallacy.. you've heard of those? further which scientists are you freely speaking on behalf of? you've done a formal intervew with that 1% of the population and they have appointed you to speak on their behalf? Science is ever changing.. and in the same unit no two scientists agree on the same findings let alone the world over..
one of the many reasons this is fallacious--
If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority. S

Got it? for every expert you produce, I can produce another expert to counter claim especially when you are speaking of conjectures rather than documented facts.. putting fossils in a display case and labeling them evolution is equal to putting fossils in a display case and labeling them extinct species! -- question is and remains can you reason make conjectures and refutations of modern science on your own accord to sustain a debate or will you reach for adhoms and an onslaught of experts whose findings you can't even articulate fluidly so that it makes sense to the reader?

You obviously do not know what a trinucleotide repeat expansion is. If you did, you wouldn't have asked me such a simple question any genetics student could answer. What is the "antithesis" of natural selection? I have just answered how TNRs and evolution are compatible.

You actually didn't answer, short of rephrasing what I wrote.. what you did was project on a subject that you just learned 30 mins before answering the post..
Natural selection is process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.
and here I am telling you in trinucleotide repeats there is an increase in severity of a disease or earlier onset worsening so over several generations.. again how could natural selection allow for that?

Evolution by natural selection.

this is really a fragment that is superfluous .. what are you trying to say?

Dr. D'arcy Thompson work is interesting. It doesn't refute evolution by natural selection.

No.. it refutes evolution by amassing a lot of data under one umbrella better known as Ockham's Razor!

I have reconciled it, let me repeat it for you again. Please read a textbook or email a professor to confirm. It is not that hard to understand with a little work.

Again, you haven't see my above pargraph.. I can't tell you how foreseeable you are.. most of you color our pages with the same comments when cornered!

TNRs DO NOT necessarily lead to a worst outcome in the next generation. The next generation, although the genotype is with extra TNRs, may be phenotypically the same. If the creature is phenotypically the same, the worsening genes are passed on, they are not selected out. Many TNRs are harmful ONLY AFTER reaching a certain threshold. When it reaches this point, it is then selected out.
TNRs come into being de novo by DNA slippage during replication.

How have they been slected out, when they are actually still with us?
Tell me how fragile X, Friedreich ataxia, huntington's chorea etc etc have been made extinct by natural selection?

cheers